1st Teen Titans 3 3

[Sqeggs]

 

Roy, Please track me down 9.2 or higher copies of both. OW-W pq or better if possible.

 

Add a small premium to whichever issue is the true first appearance.

 

Thanks.

 

You missed out on a #54 9.6 some time ago.

 

I actually don't add any sort of a premium. I try to price all my books based on what the market in total thinks (ie. GPA, OSPG, etc).

 

I just like the debate. Personally, I can't stand DC.

 

But who knew back then that these books were so .... interesting?

[HighStakesComics]

 

Roy, Please track me down 9.2 or higher copies of both. OW-W pq or better if possible.

 

Add a small premium to whichever issue is the true first appearance.

 

Thanks.

 

You missed out on a #54 9.6 some time ago.

 

I actually don't add any sort of a premium. I try to price all my books based on what the market in total thinks (ie. GPA, OSPG, etc).

 

I just like the debate. Personally, I can't stand DC.

 

But who knew back then that these books were so .... interesting?

 

That they are and Duck has fought valiantly, but in the end, we are talking about the subjective versus the absolute. Brave and the Bold 60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. I have no doubt. Words can be twisted. History can be denied. Truths can be stretched. At the end of the day this debate is about an appearance in a comic book. This thread is almost 80 pages and not once has anyone posted a panel that comes anywhere close to identifying the Teen Titans in issue 54. There is something to be said in that.

[THB]

Don't debate just get both......

 

 

But I only see Teen Titans on one of these.......

Edited September 3, 2015 by THB

[Broke as a Joke]

The team roster constantly changes and if you asked a youngster who the Teen Titans are they would say the Cyborg, Raven, Starfire team. To me, at least, the only thing important is the branding of the name Teen Titans and that takes place in B&B 60.

[Sqeggs]

 

Roy, Please track me down 9.2 or higher copies of both. OW-W pq or better if possible.

 

Add a small premium to whichever issue is the true first appearance.

 

Thanks.

 

You missed out on a #54 9.6 some time ago.

 

I actually don't add any sort of a premium. I try to price all my books based on what the market in total thinks (ie. GPA, OSPG, etc).

 

I just like the debate. Personally, I can't stand DC.

 

But who knew back then that these books were so .... interesting?

 

That they are and Duck has fought valiantly, but in the end, we are talking about the subjective versus the absolute. Brave and the Bold 60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans. I have no doubt. Words can be twisted. History can be denied. Truths can be stretched. At the end of the day this debate is about an appearance in a comic book. This thread is almost 80 pages and not once has anyone posted a panel that comes anywhere close to identifying the Teen Titans in issue 54. There is something to be said in that.

 

Ok, Roy, forget about the 54. Apparently it featured a different team (albeit with the same members ).

 

Let's make it two copies of 60, CGC 9.2 and above, OW-W or better. I'll pay GPA plus first and last months.

[Silver]

I still stand by 60 being the first TT, but you don't have a 60 without a 54. If you're a TT fan, you have to have both. I suspect 60 has been hotter than 54 as far as price and demand, but that is pretty subjective; both have been how for awhile now.

[Sqeggs]

I still stand by 60 being the first TT, but you don't have a 60 without a 54. If you're a TT fan, you have to have both. I suspect 60 has been hotter than 54 as far as price and demand, but that is pretty subjective; both have been how for awhile now.

 

Roy, looks like 54 is back on my list.

[VintageComics]

[Silver]

I still stand by 60 being the first TT, but you don't have a 60 without a 54. If you're a TT fan, you have to have both. I suspect 60 has been hotter than 54 as far as price and demand, but that is pretty subjective; both have been how for awhile now.

 

Roy, looks like 54 is back on my list.

 

Regardless of this conversation/debate, 54 is a awesome book/story. Any DC fan should want to have that book.

[nearmint]

I still stand by 60 being the first TT, but you don't have a 60 without a 54. If you're a TT fan, you have to have both. I suspect 60 has been hotter than 54 as far as price and demand, but that is pretty subjective; both have been how for awhile now.

 

Part of the high prices for #60 is because of scarcity in high grade. Only 25 copies in 9.0 or better, while #54 has 92 in that grade range.

[Silver]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brave-and-Bold-60-CGC-9-0-OW-W-1st-Full-Teen-Titans-Wonder-Girl-Donna-Troy-/331645525704?

[JTLarsen]

I'm confused. Isn't Bob Haney the one who wrote BB 60, which included Robin telling Batman that "after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners" he set up the Teen Titans?

 

Which means:

1. The Teen Titans did not spontaneously form when the three sidekicks met and worked together

2. It was "Kid Flash, Aqualad and I (Robin)" rather than "the Teen Titans" who helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners

3. "After" is still a very important word in that panel despite the people who insist the Teen Titans appeared in BB 54 ignoring it constantly

 

Why would Bob Haney need to explain anything years after the fact when it's all clearly visible on the pages he wrote?

 

Still ignoring this post, sfcityduck? Maybe hoping if you ignore it long enough it will just disappear?

 

All of those positions have been addressed over and over.

 

Let me make it simple enough you can understand.

 

The group now known as the TT formed in BB54 when Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad came together for the very first time in a shared adventure against a common menace. That story is essentially the same as Avengers 1. Heroes come together due to common menace, come into conflict, learn to work together.

 

We also know that behind the scenes this comic was created in response to fan demand leading to an editorial directive for a "Junior Justice League" issue. Bob Haney explained this in interviews because its an interesting topic and he was asked. He certainly knows what happened.

 

What did not happen in BB54 is the naming of that team as the JJL. Instead, six issues later, the team was named the "Teen Titans." The editorial narrative was that the team was formed as a result of the events in BB54 and the team name was selected after that, but before BB60. The continuity is clear. Team forms, then picks up name. Haney concurs.

 

So does DC, Overstreet, dealers, fans, etc.

 

Keep spitting against the wind.

 

 

Remind me again in which panel the team "formed"? And why the Justice League didn't "form" in Superman 76?

[JTLarsen]

That story is essentially the same as Avengers 1.

 

 

No it isn't, as you well know, since we've gone over this before. Because Avengers #1 has a half page sequence where they actually form a team.

 

I bolded that to make it easier for you to see.

 

 

 

 

Okay, good point. But we all remember when this happens in BB54, right? Um, anyone?

[VintageComics]

So the discussion is between what constitutes a team vs. a team-up?

 

That's what it sounds like to me.

[sfcityduck]

I'm confused. Isn't Bob Haney the one who wrote BB 60, which included Robin telling Batman that "after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners" he set up the Teen Titans?

 

Which means:

1. The Teen Titans did not spontaneously form when the three sidekicks met and worked together

2. It was "Kid Flash, Aqualad and I (Robin)" rather than "the Teen Titans" who helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners

3. "After" is still a very important word in that panel despite the people who insist the Teen Titans appeared in BB 54 ignoring it constantly

 

Why would Bob Haney need to explain anything years after the fact when it's all clearly visible on the pages he wrote?

 

Still ignoring this post, sfcityduck? Maybe hoping if you ignore it long enough it will just disappear?

 

All of those positions have been addressed over and over.

 

Let me make it simple enough you can understand.

 

The group now known as the TT formed in BB54 when Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad came together for the very first time in a shared adventure against a common menace. That story is essentially the same as Avengers 1. Heroes come together due to common menace, come into conflict, learn to work together.

 

We also know that behind the scenes this comic was created in response to fan demand leading to an editorial directive for a "Junior Justice League" issue. Bob Haney explained this in interviews because its an interesting topic and he was asked. He certainly knows what happened.

 

What did not happen in BB54 is the naming of that team as the JJL. Instead, six issues later, the team was named the "Teen Titans." The editorial narrative was that the team was formed as a result of the events in BB54 and the team name was selected after that, but before BB60. The continuity is clear. Team forms, then picks up name. Haney concurs.

 

So does DC, Overstreet, dealers, fans, etc.

 

Keep spitting against the wind.

 

 

Remind me again in which panel the team "formed"? And why the Justice League didn't "form" in Superman 76?

 

If this is all you got, you are struggling mightily.

 

Superman 76 was the origin of the Superman-Batman (and Robin) team. It was a GA book and the JLA is a SA team. A more relevant example, no one here is contending that the X-Men 1 is the first appearance of the Champions because Iceman and Angel were in that team. That would be absurd. There's no continuity to support that assertion and the timing is too far removed. Ditto for Superman 76 and the JLA. But, BB 54 and BB 60 share continuity, BB 60 refers back to the BB 54 story and clearly is a continuation. If you read the issues, which I'm not sure you have if you think Superman 76 and the first JLA are analogous, it is obvious that the team in BB 60 is the same team in BB 54 (plust a new member). And that's what DC said way back in TT 1.

 

The entire issue of BB54 tells the story of how Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad learned to work as a team -- and the new team is reflected on the final panel and in BB 60 itself. There is no panel in BB 60 where someone forms a team. Instead, there is a panel in BB60 where Robin says the team was formed prior and references BB 54.

 

You may want neat and tidy packages, but sometimes life isn't like that. Sometimes a hero appears without a name (Animal Man) and so too with groups (TT). Yes, it makes it a bit harder to recognize and understand, but the test for a first appearance is not the lowest common denominator. You don't have to be hit over the head with a baseball bat to recognize a first appearance. Sometimes, it's ok if they are more subtle, like TTA 27, BB 54, and Strange Adventures 180.

Edited September 4, 2015 by sfcityduck

[JTLarsen]

I'm confused. Isn't Bob Haney the one who wrote BB 60, which included Robin telling Batman that "after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners" he set up the Teen Titans?

 

Which means:

1. The Teen Titans did not spontaneously form when the three sidekicks met and worked together

2. It was "Kid Flash, Aqualad and I (Robin)" rather than "the Teen Titans" who helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners

3. "After" is still a very important word in that panel despite the people who insist the Teen Titans appeared in BB 54 ignoring it constantly

 

Why would Bob Haney need to explain anything years after the fact when it's all clearly visible on the pages he wrote?

 

Still ignoring this post, sfcityduck? Maybe hoping if you ignore it long enough it will just disappear?

 

All of those positions have been addressed over and over.

 

Let me make it simple enough you can understand.

 

The group now known as the TT formed in BB54 when Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad came together for the very first time in a shared adventure against a common menace. That story is essentially the same as Avengers 1. Heroes come together due to common menace, come into conflict, learn to work together.

 

We also know that behind the scenes this comic was created in response to fan demand leading to an editorial directive for a "Junior Justice League" issue. Bob Haney explained this in interviews because its an interesting topic and he was asked. He certainly knows what happened.

 

What did not happen in BB54 is the naming of that team as the JJL. Instead, six issues later, the team was named the "Teen Titans." The editorial narrative was that the team was formed as a result of the events in BB54 and the team name was selected after that, but before BB60. The continuity is clear. Team forms, then picks up name. Haney concurs.

 

So does DC, Overstreet, dealers, fans, etc.

 

Keep spitting against the wind.

 

 

Remind me again in which panel the team "formed"? And why the Justice League didn't "form" in Superman 76?

 

If this is all you got, you are struggling mightily.

 

Superman 76 was the origin of the Superman-Batman (and Robin) team. It was a GA book and the JLA is a SA team. A more relevant example, no one here is contending that the X-Men 1 is the first appearance of the Champions because Iceman and Angel were in that team. That would be absurd. There's no continuity to support that assertion and the timing is too far removed. Ditto for Superman 76 and the JLA. But, BB 54 and BB 60 share continuity, BB 60 refers back to the BB 54 story and clearly is a continuation. If you read the issues, which I'm not sure you have if you think Superman 76 and the first JLA are analogous, it is obvious that the team in BB 60 is the same team in BB 54 (plust a new member). And that's what DC said way back in TT 1.

 

The entire issue of BB54 tells the story of how Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad learned to work as a team -- and the new team is reflected on the final panel and in BB 60 itself.

 

You may want neat and tidy packages, but sometimes life isn't like that. Sometimes a hero appears without a name (Animal Man) and so too with groups (TT). Yes, it makes it a bit harder to recognize and understand, but the test for a first appearance is not the lowest common denominator. You don't have to beat hit over the head with a baseball bat to recognize a first appearance. Sometimes, it's ok if they are more subtle, like TTA 27, BB 54, and Strange Adventures 180.

 

Wait, so now BB60 matters? Including the part where Robin says they formed the Teen Titans "after" the events of BB54? I don't need neat and tidy packages at all. I just need appearances to appear. The Teen Titans -- with or without name -- don't appear in BB54. Some of its members do. And, yes, they work collaboratively. They just don't form an actual team (as the Avengers do in their first appearance). That happens after BB54, as Robin tells us in BB60, which you concede shares the continuity.

 

I get and accept that some first appearances are subtle -- I own those Animal Man appearances. But all of them have neat and tidy explanations (first named appearance, in costume, etc.). And I happily conceded BB54 is material to the formation (on- and off-screen) of the Teen Titans. I agree it's important and even a Teen Titans key book. I won't argue with anyone who calls it a tryout or prototype or whatever. That's how comfortable with un-neat and un-tidy packages I am. But for a comic book to constitute something's first appearance, that thing has to appear, and no superhero team appears in BB54.

 

If you think heroes appearing together in a book constitute an appearance of the team to which those heroes (later) belong, then, yeah, BB54 appears to be the first appearance of the Teen Titans (unless someone digs up Robin and Aqualad appearing together beforehand or something). If you require people to form or have formed a superhero team for that superhero team to exist, then BB60 is the first appearance.

[Lazyboy]

Of course BB 54 is part of the history of the Teen Titans, in a similar way as Tec 38, Flash 110 and Adventure 269 are, but more closely tied to the team. BB 60 isn't comparable since Wonder Girl's first appearance is the same as the team's.

 

In reality, BB 54 was a test to gauge fan reaction to a team-up of teen sidekicks. In the story, it inspired Robin to later set up a team of teen superheroes.

 

It is appropriate to include BB 54 in a written or collected history of the Teen Titans, despite no team, named or otherwise, appearing in the story.

 

So the discussion is between what constitutes a team vs. a team-up?

 

That's what it sounds like to me.

 

What thread have you been reading this whole time?

 

In Avengers 1, Loki causes multiple superheroes to gather and work together. At the end of the story, they form a team - the Avengers.

 

BB 28 starts off by introducing the Justice League of America, who are impressively well organized for a brand new team.

 

In BB 54, a group of three teen superheroes team-up to save the teenagers of Hatton Corners. The End.

[Lazyboy]

I found this kind of interesting.

[sfcityduck]

 

I get and accept that some first appearances are subtle -- I own those Animal Man appearances. But all of them have neat and tidy explanations (first named appearance, in costume, etc.).

 

BB 54 - First appearance of Teen Titans.

 

BB 60 - First named appearance of Teen Titans; First appearance of Donna Troy as Wonder Girl.

Edited September 4, 2015 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

I found this kind of interesting.

I find the Teen Titans Archives vol. 1 (starts with BB 54) and Teen Titans: A Celebration of 50 Years (keys off of BB 54) much more interesting.