1st Teen Titans 3 3

[jimjum12]

 

Bull , most superhero teams are highly organized groups with headquarters, rosters, etc.

 

In the case of the Teen Titans, they officially formed when Robin set up the "group of junior crime-fighters." It's right there in the panel most recently posted by you.

 

 

So, you're agreeing that the Teen Titans 1st appeared in #54 then?

How? Robin clearly says he set up the Teen Titans. This did not occur anywhere in BB 54, so...

 

They appeared in person in #54. They just weren't name the Teen Titans. It's really simple to me...the editorial team had not yet thought of the name 'Teen Titans' and when they resurrected the team from issue #54 (the same people, just now named TT), added Wonder Girl and started a run.

 

What you guys are looking to do is make it fit into a specific box. Characters are not always revealed that way with a specific vision in mind. Often they evolve.

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree.

 

I think #54 is their 1st appearance even if they weren't named as such.

 

 

..... this is how I see it. Either way, I don't see how a person could be much of a Teen Titans fan and not own BB 54 GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Silver]

I'll say it again...

 

BB 54 origin of the Teen Titans

BB 60 First appearance of Wonder Girl and the Teen Titans..

 

 

[VintageComics]

I'll say it again...

 

BB 54 origin of the Teen Titans

BB 60 First appearance of Wonder Girl and the Teen Titans..

 

 

So it is them that appear on #54 then?

[Silver]

No, what that ultimately was is their origin tale, they formed the Teen Titans in BB 60.

[JTLarsen]

The problem I have is there is a bit of a difference between the team up that ends in 54, and the team we are introduced to in 60. How can we say the Teen Titans existed prior to Wonder Girl? Even if you could make the argument that a team formed permanently in 54, I don't see how you could make the argument that they are the same team we see at the beginning of 60?

 

Keep in mind I have not read this entire thread (who has time for that) - but doesn't the last page posted of BB54 proclaim "Once again a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!"

 

Doesn't this satisfy the need for a formal proclamation of a team? COmbined that with DC stating this was the first TT and isn't that enough?

 

Furthermore, with regards to Wonder Girl not joining the team until BB60 - why does that even matter if one core member is not present? So do the Avengers not form until issue #4 when Captain America joins (who is arguably the most important member of the Avengers?)

 

I agree with you that Wonder Girl is not necessary for Teen Titans to form. The problem with the "new team" blurb in BB54, as we've discussed (and, I think, documented) is that they use the word "team" on a routine basis to refer to any grouping of heroes -- usually when it's NOT a formal superhero team. That's why they refer to "new teams"...even though subsequent issues don't introduce new superhero teams, they just offer new combinations of individual heroes. I think what's throwing people here is that it's THREE heroes. If it were just Robin and Speedy, I doubt anyone would say BB54 was the first Teen Titans.

[JTLarsen]

You guys require that it be proclaimed "we are a team" for it to be the first appearance.

 

I get it. I just don't agree with it.

 

No, don't require them to proclaim it. Just to do it. They don't. They work together and part ways with no plans to work together again, let alone as a formally constituted group. They don't proclaim it because they haven't done anything to proclaim. It's not the lack of proclamation that's the problem, it's the fact they haven't done anything to proclaim. To put it in other terms, just because two people sleep together one time doesn't mean they're married--and it's not because they don't issue a wedding proclamation, it's because they don't get married.

 

And yet, as illustrated above, they are proclaimed to be a "Startling new team of DC heroes" at the end of BB54.

 

They referred to every team-up as a team. That's why it refers to "new teams" coming up. If you think they mean "formal new superhero teams," then please let us know which "new teams" you think were introduced in the subsequent issues. In any case, whatever the caption says, at no point in BB54 do we see anyone form a superhero team.

[JTLarsen]

 

Here's another example, an ad for the team-up in #53, which again is called a "team" even though it's just two random dudes running into each other:

 

 

 

Heck, given that The Atom later became the leader of the Teen Titans, maybe this unnamed "team" from #53 is actually the first appearance of the Teen Titans!

 

This second ad is just another two hero team-up in line with the concept for the ad you discuss in the first example. But, not only was BB54 not a two hero team-up in line with that ad, but the two hero team-up was not the only thing happening in B&B in that time period. BB was not solely a team-up book after BB 50. For example, BB 57 and BB 58 introduced Metamorpho in two solo adventures. BB 60 was also not a "team-up" but, as all of you contend quite vociferously, a true "team" story (not a team-up of a team and a solo hero as in BB 94 with TT and Batman teaming up).

 

BB did not become a "team-up" book until after BB60.

 

So the notion that BB was just a "team-up" book after BB 50, and therefore BB54 is just a "team-up", is utterly false.

 

You neglected to address the salient point: When DC said "team" at the time, they were often not referring to formally constituted superhero teams. Which means that when they say "team" in BB54, we can't conclude that they think they just introduced a new superhero team (as confirmed by the Teen Titans' first appearance, in BB60, which tells us the team formed after BB54).

[JTLarsen]

Contrast this statement:

 

The Brave and the Bold became a team-up series starting with issue 50 and a Batman team-up series starting with issue 67.

 

With this statement:

 

There were 3 non-team-up issues in the first 10 after [bB50] ... and one of the non-team-up issues simply featured a new real team instead of just a team-up.

 

Exactly. You are refuting yourself. BB was not solely a "team-up" book after BB50. While your ad touts "two hero" team-ups, there were a number of issues after BB50 that departed from that concept. As you rightly admit, there were non-"team-up" issues after BB50. These "exceptions" included BB 57 and BB 58 which featured solo Metamorpho stories (a possible Showcase style tryout for his own series?), BB 54 and BB60 which featured the TT (again a possible Showcase style tryout?), and BB 52 which featured Sgt. Rock, Haunted Tank and Lt. Cloud.

 

Which just proves, as I said, that BB was not solely a "two hero" team-up book, as you claim the ad supports, until after BB 60.

 

Which means that claiming that BB54 is just a team-up because it was after BB50 is an utterly false claim.

 

No one's arguing that. We're rebutting the argument that the use of the word "team" in BB54 proves a formal superhero team has been introduced. BB50 and other examples illustrate that the word "team" doesn't mean what you think it means.

[JTLarsen]

I just don't get how this is a debate at all:

 

- The last panel of BB54 declares them to be a new team

- The heroes undeniably teamed up to solve a problem/battle some evil

- DC claims this to be their first appearance

- They were missing a "key" member (as many other teams have been - i.e., Avengers)

- Even if it was accepted that BB was a "team-up" issue what does this change? So this team-up proved to be successful so they decided to keep it going, how does that change that the first appearance of the team was BB54?

- They didn't have their official name yet? How does this change whether they appeared or not - if in Action Comics 1 Superman appeared and did everything he did in that issue, but wasn't called Superman until Action Comics 2 - would that mean you wouldn't consider Superman's first appearance to be Action Comics 1?

 

The first appearance is clearly BB54 - in my opinion. (by the way I don't own either book - but want a BB54, so someone who thinks it isn't the first appearance of the TT please sell me one at a steep discount (thumbs u )

 

No one's saying BB54 isn't important. But, um, have you read it? Because, uh, then you might understand the argument that they don't form a superhero team in this issue. It's because they don't form a superhero team in this issue.

[JTLarsen]

But the Teen Titans do not exist at any point during BB 54.

 

But DC stated that they were a new team. Obviously new enough that the execs at DC hadn't even thought of the name Teen Titans yet. But they were more or less the same team, reintroduced a few issues later with a gimmicky name and maybe a new member.

 

Still, the same team that was not only introduced but also noted on the last page that they were a new 'team'.

 

It doesn't follow the formula of most team introductions but that doesn't mean it wasn't their first appearance.

 

Again, no contest in my books.

 

Have you read BB54?

[JTLarsen]

 

Or perhaps BB 60 was at one time considered the first appearance, which is consistent with the panels posted throughout the thread, until Bob Overstreet shifted the market by erroneously mistaking the first appearance was ambiguously worded into the last sentence of the last panel of BB 54 in Volume 10 of his price guide published in the year of our lord 1980?

 

I'm not sure when that would be. After all, BB60 specifically cites to BB54 when it says the formation of the TT pre-dated BB60:

 

 

So it was established by DC the first time that the name Teen Titans was used that the group originated in BB54. Moreover, the first time the story from BB54 was reprinted, in 1972, in DC 100 Page Super Spectacular DC-21, it was labeled on the cover as being a "Teen Titans" story.

 

Hard to fault Overstreet for calling BB54 the first Teen Titans appearance when that's exactly what DC was doing back when the Guide was first written.

 

Of course, subsequent DC publications, such as the Archives and 50th Anniversay HC, have also confirmed BB54 was the first appearance and origin of the TT. Bob got it right. That's why every dealer, including you, list BB54 as a TT book.

 

Weird how everyone keeps dropping the word "after."

[JTLarsen]

So if at the end of BB54 Robin had turned to Kid Flash and Aqualad and said hey this team-up worked well, we should form a team and call it the "Teen Titans" this would have been enough (in the mind of the BB60 supporters) to form the Teen Titans?

 

 

Pretty much.

[TeddieMercede]

But the Teen Titans do not exist at any point during BB 54.

 

But DC stated that they were a new team. Obviously new enough that the execs at DC hadn't even thought of the name Teen Titans yet. But they were more or less the same team, reintroduced a few issues later with a gimmicky name and maybe a new member.

 

Still, the same team that was not only introduced but also noted on the last page that they were a new 'team'.

 

It doesn't follow the formula of most team introductions but that doesn't mean it wasn't their first appearance.

 

Again, no contest in my books.

 

Have you read BB54?

 

I think a good portion of the people who have been commenting on this thread haven't read either 54 or 60. Or the Teen Titans in general.

[JTLarsen]

But the Teen Titans do not exist at any point during BB 54.

 

But DC stated that they were a new team. Obviously new enough that the execs at DC hadn't even thought of the name Teen Titans yet. But they were more or less the same team, reintroduced a few issues later with a gimmicky name and maybe a new member.

 

Still, the same team that was not only introduced but also noted on the last page that they were a new 'team'.

 

It doesn't follow the formula of most team introductions but that doesn't mean it wasn't their first appearance.

 

Again, no contest in my books.

 

Have you read BB54?

 

I think a good portion of the people who have been commenting on this thread haven't read either 54 or 60. Or the Teen Titans in general.

 

I wouldn't be surprised. I used to consider 54 the first appearance. Then I read the reprint in DC Archives and thought to myself, what the hell? Because, y'know, no first appearance.

 

Can't wait to read Superman 76, the first appearance of the "TEAM" later called "Justice League of America"!

 

[TeddieMercede]

 

I wouldn't be surprised. I used to consider 54 the first appearance. Then I read the reprint in DC Archives and thought to myself, what the hell? Because, y'know, no first appearance.

 

Can't wait to read Superman 76, the first appearance of the "TEAM" later called "Justice League of America"!

 

 

What I don't understand is that people in support of BB 60 are not arguing some new novel concept - If you read the books it becomes clear the differences between 54 and 60 and why 60 is the First Appearance, just like with the Defenders.

 

Why do people not consider Sub-Mariner 34 the first appearance of the Defenders ? On the CGC label it states a "Prelude to the First Defenders story" even though this book features a "Team" (which of course is a Team Up) of characters who later become the Defenders. Overstreet lists Sub-Mariner 34/35 as preludes to the 1st Defenders story with Marvel Feature #1 being the Origin/First Appearance.

 

I assume this is an error that needs to be changed by all the dealers in the hobby, CGC, and Overstreet to correct this erroneous mistake ? Anybody who believes BB 54 is the 1st Titans I assume believes everyone else associated in the hobby is wrong on these books ? Btw these "Prelude" Sub-Mariner books are listed in the Marvel Masterworks:The Defenders Volume 1 hardcover, but I guess that just doesn't make ANY sense because publishers would never include prequel story lines in Compilations correct ?

 

The fact is people don't like change for various reasons and because something may have been listed in a certain manner they become accustomed to it and fight against it without in many cases going through the books and looking at what really makes sense. Not everything listed in these guides is gospel because there are a ton of inaccuracies which I'm sure everyone can agree upon.

[Lazyboy]

I used to consider 54 the first appearance. Then I read the reprint in DC Archives and thought to myself, what the hell? Because, y'know, no first appearance.

 

Yeah, it was only a few years ago that I read 54 and last year that I read 60. Before that, I just assumed the misinformation constantly repeated by major hobby sources was accurate.

 

Can't wait to read Superman 76, the first appearance of the "TEAM" later called "Justice League of America"!

 

 

I was thinking about posting something similar.

 

DC used the word "team" on the cover! No formal organization, no full roster, no name? NO PROBLEM!

[nearmint]

No, what that ultimately was is their origin tale, they formed the Teen Titans in BB 60.

 

How can their origin not be their first appearance?

[nearmint]

I just don't get how this is a debate at all:

 

- The last panel of BB54 declares them to be a new team

- The heroes undeniably teamed up to solve a problem/battle some evil

- DC claims this to be their first appearance

- They were missing a "key" member (as many other teams have been - i.e., Avengers)

- Even if it was accepted that BB was a "team-up" issue what does this change? So this team-up proved to be successful so they decided to keep it going, how does that change that the first appearance of the team was BB54?

- They didn't have their official name yet? How does this change whether they appeared or not - if in Action Comics 1 Superman appeared and did everything he did in that issue, but wasn't called Superman until Action Comics 2 - would that mean you wouldn't consider Superman's first appearance to be Action Comics 1?

 

The first appearance is clearly BB54 - in my opinion. (by the way I don't own either book - but want a BB54, so someone who thinks it isn't the first appearance of the TT please sell me one at a steep discount (thumbs u )

 

No one's saying BB54 isn't important. But, um, have you read it? Because, uh, then you might understand the argument that they don't form a superhero team in this issue. It's because they don't form a superhero team in this issue.

 

Sure seems like a team to me...

 

Aqualad, Kid Flash and Robin arrive in town, but when they visit the teen clubhouse, they find that it has been razed to the ground. Mayor Corliss tells them about Mister Twister and they agree to do what they can to rescue the missing youths. They find the kids on Goat Island where they are forced to erect a giant twister-shaped tower made from heavy stone blocks.

 

While Mister Twister is away, Kid Flash uses his super-speed to finish construction on the tower so that the teenagers do not have to carry the burden alone. Aqualad discovers that the underside of Goat Island is perched upon a fragile pinnacle of rock, so he summons a giant whale to push the island off of its natural mooring and move it out to sea.

 

When Mister Twister returns, he cannot find the island. Infuriated, he returns to Hatton Corners to wreak his revenge against the town. He uses his powers to rain fire down from the sky and creates a massive flood that threatens to consume the town. Kid Flash spins like a cyclone in an effort to control the flames while Aqualad calls upon the aid of a narwhal to drill a drainage ditch, which diverts the flood into natural underground tributaries. Robin confronts Mister Twister directly and ensnares the villain's magic staff with his Batrope. Without the power of his staff, Mister Twister is powerless. The teens of Hatton Corners are reunited with their parents and everyone agrees that they will do their best to mend their differences.

[nearmint]

 

Here's another example, an ad for the team-up in #53, which again is called a "team" even though it's just two random dudes running into each other:

 

 

 

Heck, given that The Atom later became the leader of the Teen Titans, maybe this unnamed "team" from #53 is actually the first appearance of the Teen Titans!

 

This second ad is just another two hero team-up in line with the concept for the ad you discuss in the first example. But, not only was BB54 not a two hero team-up in line with that ad, but the two hero team-up was not the only thing happening in B&B in that time period. BB was not solely a team-up book after BB 50. For example, BB 57 and BB 58 introduced Metamorpho in two solo adventures. BB 60 was also not a "team-up" but, as all of you contend quite vociferously, a true "team" story (not a team-up of a team and a solo hero as in BB 94 with TT and Batman teaming up).

 

BB did not become a "team-up" book until after BB60.

 

So the notion that BB was just a "team-up" book after BB 50, and therefore BB54 is just a "team-up", is utterly false.

 

You neglected to address the salient point: When DC said "team" at the time, they were often not referring to formally constituted superhero teams. Which means that when they say "team" in BB54, we can't conclude that they think they just introduced a new superhero team (as confirmed by the Teen Titans' first appearance, in BB60, which tells us the team formed after BB54).

 

For me, this isn't a relevant point. Sure, DC called every team-up a team, but the point is, this one worked. The team went on to have hundreds of adventures.

 

 

[sfcityduck]

 

They referred to every team-up as a team. That's why it refers to "new teams" coming up. If you think they mean "formal new superhero teams," then please let us know which "new teams" you think were introduced in the subsequent issues. In any case, whatever the caption says, at no point in BB54 do we see anyone form a superhero team.

 

First, BB had multiple non-"team-up" issues after BB50. That blows the argument you guys make based on the house ads out of the water.

 

Second, are you really serious when you ask: "please let us know which "new teams" you think were introduced in the subsequent issues"? C'mon. Your whole argument is that BB 60 introduced a "new team" -- the TT. Just as the majority of folks contend that BB 54 introduced a "new team" -- the TT. It is a fact that the TT were introduced in BB, after BB 50, which again proves your whole "team-up book" argument is false.

 

Finally, in BB 54 we see three heroes come together to fight a common menace, and, after initial conflict, learn to work together and gain mutual respect. Isn't that how most such teams come together? The only thing we don't see is someone say: Let's call ourselves [Name]!

 

That's really all this dispute is about. Whether a team can be formed without a name. The answer is obvious: It can.

 

What's absurd is thinking you can have the origin of a team without its first appearance.