1st Teen Titans 3 3

[sfcityduck]

 

Can't wait to read Superman 76, the first appearance of the "TEAM" later called "Justice League of America"!

 

 

It's these kind of intellectually dishonest arguments which keep me coming back to frustrate you guys.

 

Superman 76 is the first appearance of a team. It is the first appearance of the Superman-Batman team which would become a regular feature in World's Finest from no. 71 on (really Superman-Batman-Robin team). Did that team have a fancy name? Nope. Did it evolve into the JLA? Nope.

 

If all you got is absurd strawmen, you lose credibility. Why should anyone take this seriously?

 

[sfcityduck]

 

Have you read BB54?

 

I think a good portion of the people who have been commenting on this thread haven't read either 54 or 60. Or the Teen Titans in general.

 

I've read them. It's clear that BB54 was intentionally designed to be a teen oriented book not just an ordinary "team-up." The whole thrust of the story was teen-parent conflict and teen culture. It clearly was intentionally designed to set up a theme to attract teen readers. That theme, of course, carried over into subsequent TT stories. BB54 also followed the classic team origin: Heroes come together in response to common threat, heroes get into conflict, heroes learn to work together.

 

You guys seem ignorant of the real origin issue of the TT: Brave and the Bold no. 30.

 

In the letters page of BB30, Larry Maher of Arlington, Virginia wrote in response to the JLA issues: "how about publishing a companion book called Junior Justice League of America? You have enough stand-by juvenile heroes to round out such a magazine: Robin, Speedy, Supergirl, Kid from Atlantis, and Kid Flash! The JJLA could go into action when the ... menacing situation is of a nature that would lend itself to better treatment by the junior group."

 

Editor Julius Schwartz replied: "A very interesting idea that has been advanced by a number of other readers. We hope to make an interesting announcement about this soon."

 

Of course, we all know that it was four years later that the concept finally got off the ground. Bob Haney recalls it that it was Kashdan who first directed that they put out a Junior Justice League issue, although they didn't use that name in BB54 -- just the concept, "and I later was the one who came up with the name Teen Titans."

 

So a creator of the TT recalls that the concept for the group and the group pre-dated the name he came up with "later," but you guys still keep on spitting into the wind.

Edited August 28, 2015 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

HANEY: I did a lot of my best work on Brave and Bold. I did good solid stories and plots and I had some fairly, reasonably imaginative ways of linking up the characters, or creating a plot that tied in with the particular guest star. Even Batman himself. I can remember half a dozen stories that I thought were superior.

 

A lot of kids — a lot of our fans liked it. We got a lot of letters. The book sold well. And I did the damn book for what? Thirteen years?

 

CATRON: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

 

HANEY: I even got huzzahs from Paul Levitz. [Laughs.] Until he fired me off the book years later.

 

CATRON: [Laughs.] Well, I’ve got some early issues here. Here’s the first one, apparently, Green Arrow and Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.

 

CATRON: Then there’s a Flash/Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Right, right.

 

CATRON: That’s just a couple issues later. And Flash and Doom Patrol.

 

HANEY: Right.

 

CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

 

HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

[rjpb]

 

Sure seems like a team to me...

 

Aqualad, Kid Flash and Robin arrive in town, but when they visit the teen clubhouse, they find that it has been razed to the ground. Mayor Corliss tells them about Mister Twister and they agree to do what they can to rescue the missing youths. They find the kids on Goat Island where they are forced to erect a giant twister-shaped tower made from heavy stone blocks.

 

While Mister Twister is away, Kid Flash uses his super-speed to finish construction on the tower so that the teenagers do not have to carry the burden alone. Aqualad discovers that the underside of Goat Island is perched upon a fragile pinnacle of rock, so he summons a giant whale to push the island off of its natural mooring and move it out to sea.

 

When Mister Twister returns, he cannot find the island. Infuriated, he returns to Hatton Corners to wreak his revenge against the town. He uses his powers to rain fire down from the sky and creates a massive flood that threatens to consume the town. Kid Flash spins like a cyclone in an effort to control the flames while Aqualad calls upon the aid of a narwhal to drill a drainage ditch, which diverts the flood into natural underground tributaries. Robin confronts Mister Twister directly and ensnares the villain's magic staff with his Batrope. Without the power of his staff, Mister Twister is powerless. The teens of Hatton Corners are reunited with their parents and everyone agrees that they will do their best to mend their differences.

 

Seems like the reason Marvel was soon outselling DC to me.

[Crimebuster]

HANEY: I did a lot of my best work on Brave and Bold. I did good solid stories and plots and I had some fairly, reasonably imaginative ways of linking up the characters, or creating a plot that tied in with the particular guest star. Even Batman himself. I can remember half a dozen stories that I thought were superior.

 

A lot of kids — a lot of our fans liked it. We got a lot of letters. The book sold well. And I did the damn book for what? Thirteen years?

 

CATRON: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

 

HANEY: I even got huzzahs from Paul Levitz. [Laughs.] Until he fired me off the book years later.

 

CATRON: [Laughs.] Well, I’ve got some early issues here. Here’s the first one, apparently, Green Arrow and Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.

 

CATRON: Then there’s a Flash/Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Right, right.

 

CATRON: That’s just a couple issues later. And Flash and Doom Patrol.

 

HANEY: Right.

 

CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

 

HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

 

 

If there's one person who is an absolute authority on continuity, it's definitely Bob Haney.

[TeddieMercede]

HANEY: I did a lot of my best work on Brave and Bold. I did good solid stories and plots and I had some fairly, reasonably imaginative ways of linking up the characters, or creating a plot that tied in with the particular guest star. Even Batman himself. I can remember half a dozen stories that I thought were superior.

 

A lot of kids — a lot of our fans liked it. We got a lot of letters. The book sold well. And I did the damn book for what? Thirteen years?

 

CATRON: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

 

HANEY: I even got huzzahs from Paul Levitz. [Laughs.] Until he fired me off the book years later.

 

CATRON: [Laughs.] Well, I’ve got some early issues here. Here’s the first one, apparently, Green Arrow and Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.

 

CATRON: Then there’s a Flash/Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Right, right.

 

CATRON: That’s just a couple issues later. And Flash and Doom Patrol.

 

HANEY: Right.

 

CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

 

HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

 

 

If there's one person who is an absolute authority on continuity, it's definitely Bob Haney.

 

I guess we're going to leave out the very next thing said in the interview ?

 

CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

CATRON: Right. Before they were called the Teen Titans. It was just a three-way team-up, apparently.

HANEY: Right. I came up with the name.Teen Titans.

[TeddieMercede]

First, BB had multiple non-"team-up" issues after BB50. That blows the argument you guys make based on the house ads out of the water.

 

Second, are you really serious when you ask: "please let us know which "new teams" you think were introduced in the subsequent issues"? C'mon. Your whole argument is that BB 60 introduced a "new team" -- the TT. Just as the majority of folks contend that BB 54 introduced a "new team" -- the TT. It is a fact that the TT were introduced in BB, after BB 50, which again proves your whole "team-up book" argument is false.

 

 

From Metamorpho’s first appearance in The Brave and the Bold #57, with art by Ramona Fradon and Charles Paris. ©1964 DC Comics Click to view larger image

 

Ramona Fradon and Metamorpho

CATRON: Ramona [Fradon] said that this is probably the best work she’s ever done.

HANEY: It was.

CATRON: The most fun she ever had.

HANEY: She was brilliant. Yeah.

CATRON: So why don’t you —?

HANEY: She’s not just the greatest woman artist in comics, she’s one of the best there ever was in comics. I’m trying to remember — the actual genesis of it was, again, George and I were working together well. We’re friends. We’re co-workers. We’d done a few things. And I think it may have been, “How about coming up with another character, you guys?’’

CATRON: This was for Brave and Bold.

HANEY: Right.

CATRON: In fact, it broke the initial beginning of the team-ups.

HANEY: Yes, it did. Yeah.

[TeddieMercede]

In the letters page of BB30, Larry Maher of Arlington, Virginia wrote in response to the JLA issues: "how about publishing a companion book called Junior Justice League of America? You have enough stand-by juvenile heroes to round out such a magazine: Robin, Speedy, Supergirl, Kid from Atlantis, and Kid Flash! The JJLA could go into action when the ... menacing situation is of a nature that would lend itself to better treatment by the junior group."

 

Editor Julius Schwartz replied: "A very interesting idea that has been advanced by a number of other readers. We hope to make an interesting announcement about this soon."

 

 

Titan's Companion ? Ok let's see what it says right after Julie Schwartz's quote.

 

"In reality it would be four years before Kid Flash, Aqualad and Robin would team up in the Brave and the Bold #54 (June-July 1964) and one more before they along with Wonder Girl, would be called the Teen Titans."

 

How about this blurb right before your liberal usage of quoting Haney ?

 

"It was Haney's involvement with the Brave and the Bold that led to his other high-profile assignment: the Teen Titans. Kid Flash, Aqualad, and Robin were the stars of the fourth B&B team-up written by Haney (#54), but whether it was intended as a stand-alone story or was always meant to be a precursor to its own series depends on upon the recollections of the author."

 

Of course leading into this -

 

"In any event, six issues later, exactly one year after Kid Flash, Aqualad and Robin teamed-up in the Brave and the Bold #54, the Teen Titans debuted in the Brave and the Bold #60, (July 1965). Joining the original three members was Wonder Girl, presumably to attract female readers to the series."

 

"All told, the Titans would appear six times in the series, from their prototype appearance in 1964 to the team's last pre-Wolfman/Perez appearance in #149 (April, 1979)".

[Zonker]

Thanks for completing the picture. (thumbs u

 

I also think prototype best describes #54. Not the first appearance, not the origin, but a prototype, whether originally intended as such or not.

 

Prototype: #54

Origin: off camera between #54 and #60

First published appearance as the Teen Titans: #60

 

Unless you want to accept TT #53 from the 1970s as canon, in which case you could modify the above as

 

Origin & 1st chronological appearance: Teen Titans #53

[sfcityduck]

HANEY: I did a lot of my best work on Brave and Bold. I did good solid stories and plots and I had some fairly, reasonably imaginative ways of linking up the characters, or creating a plot that tied in with the particular guest star. Even Batman himself. I can remember half a dozen stories that I thought were superior.

 

A lot of kids — a lot of our fans liked it. We got a lot of letters. The book sold well. And I did the damn book for what? Thirteen years?

 

CATRON: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

 

HANEY: I even got huzzahs from Paul Levitz. [Laughs.] Until he fired me off the book years later.

 

CATRON: [Laughs.] Well, I’ve got some early issues here. Here’s the first one, apparently, Green Arrow and Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.

 

CATRON: Then there’s a Flash/Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Right, right.

 

CATRON: That’s just a couple issues later. And Flash and Doom Patrol.

 

HANEY: Right.

 

CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

 

HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

 

 

If there's one person who is an absolute authority on continuity, it's definitely Bob Haney.

 

I guess we're going to leave out the very next thing said in the interview ?

 

CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

CATRON: Right. Before they were called the Teen Titans. It was just a three-way team-up, apparently.

HANEY: Right. I came up with the name.Teen Titans.

 

Haney's unprompted recollection of BB54 as the "first Teen Titans" is a lot more significant to me than Catron's comment. Especially given Haney's recollection that BB54 resulted from his editor's directive to come with a JJLA issue (in line with what DC hinted they'd do 24 issues earlier) and it was only "later" that the group was instead dubbed with the name he came up with: Teen Titans. Catron had nothing to do with the creation of the group, so your bolding of Catron's comment to obscure Haney's unprompted recollection just tells me how desperate you are to muddy the waters.

 

Edited August 29, 2015 by sfcityduck

[TeddieMercede]

HANEY: I did a lot of my best work on Brave and Bold. I did good solid stories and plots and I had some fairly, reasonably imaginative ways of linking up the characters, or creating a plot that tied in with the particular guest star. Even Batman himself. I can remember half a dozen stories that I thought were superior.

 

A lot of kids — a lot of our fans liked it. We got a lot of letters. The book sold well. And I did the damn book for what? Thirteen years?

 

CATRON: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

 

HANEY: I even got huzzahs from Paul Levitz. [Laughs.] Until he fired me off the book years later.

 

CATRON: [Laughs.] Well, I’ve got some early issues here. Here’s the first one, apparently, Green Arrow and Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.

 

CATRON: Then there’s a Flash/Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Right, right.

 

CATRON: That’s just a couple issues later. And Flash and Doom Patrol.

 

HANEY: Right.

 

CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

 

HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

 

 

If there's one person who is an absolute authority on continuity, it's definitely Bob Haney.

 

I guess we're going to leave out the very next thing said in the interview ?

 

CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

CATRON: Right. Before they were called the Teen Titans. It was just a three-way team-up, apparently.

HANEY: Right. I came up with the name.Teen Titans.

 

Haney's unprompted recollection of BB54 as the "first Teen Titans" is a lot more significant to me than Catron's comment. Especially given Haney's recollection that BB54 resulted from his editor's directive to come with a JJLA issue (in line with what DC hinted they'd do 24 issues earlier) and it was only "later" that the group was instead dubbed with the name he came up with: Teen Titans. Catron had nothing to do with the creation of the group, so your bolding of Catron's comment to obscure Haney's unprompted recollection just tells me how desperate you are to muddy the waters.

 

So you purposely leave out pertinent parts of the discussion between the 2 individuals, skewing information to again to try and be right, then at the same time decide to be the arbiter of what should be viewed as relevant and what shouldn't and I'm the desperate one ? I guess Haney agreeing with these statements is irrelevant because he can't think for himself.

 

Continue using hyperbole including disparaging comments to people, it's really helping to prove your point.

[TeddieMercede]

Haney in these same set of interviews has this response in regards to the beginnings of Sgt Rock and inaccuracies in the comic industry - but he's going to agree with statements Catron makes regarding the Brave and the Bold teamups and the Teen Titans because he suddenly decided accuracy doesn't matter anymore ?

 

"CATRON: … at DC, too. Of course, you were part of that. But before you get to that, let me ask you about Sgt. Rock. Because the official line is that the first Rock story is — whatever it is, Our Army At War #81 [cover dated April, 1959]. “The Rock of Easy Company.” And Kanigher wrote something in #83, which is “The Rock and the Wall.”

 

HANEY: I’ll tell you because I want this to be accurate. Because I believe in accuracy. There’s so much inaccurate mess in the comics business and false information and ego trips and all that. I have no ego about it. I’m just being accurate for the sheer sake of being accurate."

[Lazyboy]

First, BB had multiple non-"team-up" issues after BB50.

 

Yeah, 3 out of 151. One of those three following up on the fifth team-up to make a real team.

 

Good argument. I'm sure i could find 3 issues of Superman that don't contain a Superman appearance. I guess that would mean that Superman isn't a Superman title.

 

 

Now, would you care to address the issue of Robin setting up the team and his doing so after the three sidekicks teamed up to help the teenagers of Hatton Corners.

 

Of course not, because it completely destroys your argument.

 

[sfcityduck]

HANEY: I did a lot of my best work on Brave and Bold. I did good solid stories and plots and I had some fairly, reasonably imaginative ways of linking up the characters, or creating a plot that tied in with the particular guest star. Even Batman himself. I can remember half a dozen stories that I thought were superior.

 

A lot of kids — a lot of our fans liked it. We got a lot of letters. The book sold well. And I did the damn book for what? Thirteen years?

 

CATRON: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

 

HANEY: I even got huzzahs from Paul Levitz. [Laughs.] Until he fired me off the book years later.

 

CATRON: [Laughs.] Well, I’ve got some early issues here. Here’s the first one, apparently, Green Arrow and Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.

 

CATRON: Then there’s a Flash/Manhunter from Mars.

 

HANEY: Right, right.

 

CATRON: That’s just a couple issues later. And Flash and Doom Patrol.

 

HANEY: Right.

 

CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

 

HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

 

 

If there's one person who is an absolute authority on continuity, it's definitely Bob Haney.

 

I guess we're going to leave out the very next thing said in the interview ?

 

CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

CATRON: Right. Before they were called the Teen Titans. It was just a three-way team-up, apparently.

HANEY: Right. I came up with the name.Teen Titans.

 

Haney's unprompted recollection of BB54 as the "first Teen Titans" is a lot more significant to me than Catron's comment. Especially given Haney's recollection that BB54 resulted from his editor's directive to come with a JJLA issue (in line with what DC hinted they'd do 24 issues earlier) and it was only "later" that the group was instead dubbed with the name he came up with: Teen Titans. Catron had nothing to do with the creation of the group, so your bolding of Catron's comment to obscure Haney's unprompted recollection just tells me how desperate you are to muddy the waters.

 

So you purposely leave out pertinent parts of the discussion between the 2 individuals, skewing information to again to try and be right, then at the same time decide to be the arbiter of what should be viewed as relevant and what shouldn't and I'm the desperate one ? I guess Haney agreeing with these statements is irrelevant because he can't think for himself.

 

Continue using hyperbole including disparaging comments to people, it's really helping to prove your point.

 

When Haney was shown BB54 he reacted, without any prompting, by stating: "Yeah, the first Teen Titans." Catron's immediate response? "Right." So do you think Catron agreed that BB54 was the first Teen Titans? It sure looks like it under your theory that saying "Right" is an adoptive admission of what was said before.

 

Here's the transcript again:

 

CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad.

HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

CATRON: Right. Before they were called the Teen Titans. It was just a three-way team-up, apparently.

HANEY: Right. I came up with the name.Teen Titans.

 

Me, however, I think you have to read a conversation with the recognition that some of what people say is clear and some is ambiguous. And what's clear about this conversation is that when shown BB54, Haney's immediate reaction was "Yeah, the first Teen Titans."

 

Catron then said "Right," apparently agreeing that BB54 was the "first Teen Titans." You, I think, would disagree that this is what Catron meant because it would contradict your reading of the passage.

 

Then Catron said "Before they were called the Teen Titans," a factual statement that all of us can agree with.

 

And then Catron made a wishy washy and vague statement that could, if read one way, contradict the "Right" he'd uttered a few second before: "It was just a three-way team-up, apparently."

 

[What Catron did not say is: "BB60 is really the first appearance of the Teen Titans." So it is by no means clear that his last statement was intended to contradict his apparent agreement that BB54 is the "first Teen Titans."]

 

Haney then confuses things further by saying "Right," without indicating what it is he's saying "Right" in response to. Could be Catron's agreement that BB54 was the "first Teen Titans," and/or Catron's statement that BB54 was before they were called the Teen Titans, and/or Catron's statement it was "just a three-way team-up, apparently." It could be one, two or all three.

 

Haney does, however, make a clear statement that "I came up with the name Teen Titans," which strongly indicates that all Haney was agreeing with was Catron's statement about BB54 pre-dating the name Teen Titans.

 

In short, if you're being intellectually honest, you have to admit that the only clear statements made by Haney in that interview were: (1) BB is "the first Teen Titans" and (2) "I came up with the name Teen Titans."

 

Anything else we might infer was said by Haney (or Catron) is based on speculation as to what they meant when they said "Right."

 

So, no, this interview doesn't help you at all.

 

Especially, when you consider what else Haney said about the creation of the Teen Titans in other interviews. Like I said, this is a desperate attempt.

[sfcityduck]

First, BB had multiple non-"team-up" issues after BB50.

 

Yeah, 3 out of 151. One of those three following up on the fifth team-up to make a real team.

 

 

No. It was 5 out of 11. The last non two hero team-up issue of B&B was BB60. Everyone recognized that starting with BB61, it became a true team-up book. Before that, the concept wasn't entirely off the ground.

[Lazyboy]

I'm confused. Isn't Bob Haney the one who wrote BB 60, which included Robin telling Batman that "after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners" he set up the Teen Titans?

 

Which means:

1. The Teen Titans did not spontaneously form when the three sidekicks met and worked together

2. It was "Kid Flash, Aqualad and I (Robin)" rather than "the Teen Titans" who helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners

3. "After" is still a very important word in that panel despite the people who insist the Teen Titans appeared in BB 54 ignoring it constantly

 

Why would Bob Haney need to explain anything years after the fact when it's all clearly visible on the pages he wrote?

 

[JTLarsen]

Let me just say, I love the research and historicity here. It's great stuff.

 

And it certainly establishes that BB54 may have been a conscious try-out for a team of sidekicks. What it doesn't change is what happens in BB54--which is that no one starts a superhero group. Which is obvious if you read it.

[nearmint]

No one is convincing anyone of anything in this thread.

[Lazyboy]

Yeah, obviously some people are too blinded by decades of misinformation to see the obvious truth.

[nearmint]

Yeah, obviously some people are too blinded by decades of misinformation to see the obvious truth.

 

No, I think each side just has their own definition of what a first appearance is, and they're sticking to it.