Black Panther official movie thread (11/3/17) 1 1

[Gatsby77]

51 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

Does it really predate the MCU? It's literally the same production team as The Incredible Hulk.  Blade, I get. Different producers and what-not. The Punisher  (2004), though, probably should be considered the real "first" in the MCU.  It establishes a similar storytelling template later used in Iron Man. And for what it's worth, I actually found it enjoyable. 

-J.

Don't get me wrong -- I really like the 2004 Punisher movie, and would have loved to see Jane continue in the role.

I think it got a bad rap upon release because Denzel's Man on Fire remake debuted a week later and was a far better film, as well as essentially a far better depiction of the Punisher.

But technically, the MCU (as in, connected universe) starts in 2008 with Iron Man. Prior films don't count, even if they should.

But Punisher War Zone is definitively a Marvel Studios production -- even if it was co-produced (a la The Incredible Hulk) with another studio.

The producers are even on record saying the only reason they didn't have Stan Lee cameo was it was the first major Marvel hero film where he had nothing to do with the character.

 

 

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

40 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Don't get me wrong -- I really like the 2004 Punisher movie, and would have loved to see Jane continue in the role.

I think it got a bad rap upon release because Denzel's Man on Fire remake debuted a week later and was a far better film, as well as essentially a far better depiction of the Punisher.

But technically, the MCU (as in, connected universe) starts in 2008 with Iron Man. Prior films don't count, even if they should.

But Punisher War Zone is definitively a Marvel Studios production -- even if it was co-produced (a la The Incredible Hulk) with another studio.

The producers are even on record saying the only reason they didn't have Stan Lee cameo was it was the first major Marvel hero film where he had nothing to do with the character.

 

 

 

 

+1

-J.

[ExNihilo]

7 hours ago, JollyComics said:

I never knew it and I would try to be Costco member. I heard $50 membership for a year?

I think Costco membership is up to $55/year.  And I would suspect that each Costco sells different things.  For example, my Costco sells Cinemark tickets (which is fine since I'm surrounded by Cinemark theaters).  But if you don't really have much of a need to shop at Costco, I'd say spending $55/year just to save a few bucks on movie tickets wouldn't be much help.

Alternatively, there are those movie passes that theater chains are coming out with (if you see enough movies each year to make it worthwhile).

[fantastic_four]

On 2/18/2018 at 12:34 PM, goldust40 said:

What (apart from the identity politics) is so special about this film?

The identity politics, but empathy is required to recognize what's so unique about them as compared to every other superhero film.  The idea that an entire continent and people who have been oppressed for millennia having a power that exceeds all other nations is the most gripping fantasy with the strongest tie to realistic politics in the genre.  Two billion of the most-oppressed people on the planet suddenly have a hero that can make them forget about the reality of their history.

NO other superhero film has transcended the genre in that way, and it hadn't even occurred to me that it was even possible until I saw the film.  I've always thought of Black Panther the way Lee and Kirby did, i.e. just a superhero that black kids can look up to.  But the idea of Wakanda being the most powerful nation on Earth is SO much more impactful than any one superhero could ever be.  But then to take that idea and explore the concept of staying hidden as opposed to using Wakanda's capability to empower Africans around the world...WOW.  NEVER seen such realistic politics at the center of a comic book movie before this one.

Finally saw the movie this weekend.  Before the hype started I thought it would be really good, but when the hype hit I drew back and assumed it might be over-hyped.  I was wrong; it deserves the hype.  

Edited March 5, 2018 by fantastic_four

[fantastic_four]

On 2/18/2018 at 3:46 PM, Drummy said:

It is not, in my eyes, a brilliant film, nor did any particular moment make my jaw drop.

My jaw dropped when Killmonger challenged T'Challa for the throne and expressed his purpose to have Wakanda empower all of Africa.  For the first time since Heath Ledger made me believe he was an actual lunatic and not a comic-booky villain I suddenly exited a comic book movie and entered a world that seemed like the real one.

[goldust40]

45 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

The identity politics, but empathy is required to recognize what's so unique about them as compared to every other superhero film...and based upon the way you dismiss them entirely I'm guessing you may not be capable of such empathy.  The idea that an entire continent and people who have been oppressed for millennia having a power that exceeds all other nations is the most gripping fantasy with the strongest tie to realistic politics in the genre.  Two billion of the most-oppressed people on the planet suddenly have a hero that can make them forget about the reality of their situation.

NO other superhero film has transcended the genre in that way, and it hadn't even occurred to me that it was even possible until I saw the film.  I've always thought of Black Panther the way Lee and Kirby did, i.e. just a superhero that black kids can look up to.  But the idea of Wakanda being the most powerful nation on Earth is SO much more impactful than any one superhero could ever be.  But then to take that idea and explore the concept of staying hidden as opposed to using Wakanda's capability to empower Africans around the world...WOW.  NEVER seen such realistic politics at the center of a comic book movie before this one.

Finally saw the movie this weekend.  Before the hype started I thought it would be really good, but when the hype hit I drew back and assumed it might be over-hyped.  I was wrong; it deserves the hype.  

I doubt I've ever read such a condescending, pompous, and ludicrously silly post on these boards. To say that I lack empathy because I considered a film weak and half-baked, and that the themes and issues cack-handedly brought up in the film suffered due to this is just absurd and really very stupid.

And it's 1.3 billion, by the way, including the diaspora. If you think that my being dismissive of another slice of wish-fulfillment due to the way it plays fast and loose with identity politics makes me wrong, then so be it. And the fact that you consider such concepts as powerful or groundbreaking merely tells me that you have bought into the hype in such a prosaic, high-school manner - all people of African descent are crying out for a hero who can make them forget the reality of their situation?? Do you realize just how patronizing that is for someone of African descent to read that?? Like they've all been waiting for this film to save them.

And did you just say "realistic politics"? Err, I think we're confusing fantasy with reality here. In the real world, you see, there is nuance, and individualism, and a multiplicity of cultures, not grade school simplistic tubthumping. You've bought into the same old tedious binary nonsense like an over-eager student.

When I went to see the film (with an extremely partisan audience) I saw the death of pop culture. A mature filmmaker would've taken such themes and turned them into something dramatic and sophisticated. Instead we got the same formula as always with a few twists and you claim that this is an incredible step forward??

The fact that you have stated that I lack empathy because I didn't share your opinion on a film means that you have been successfully duped, and says far more about you than it does about me. I remember being livid about the horrors of the black experience in films such as 12 Years A Slave (as one example). The fact that I refuse to accept the dumbed-down message in a genre fantasy film  is my right and doesn't give you permission to make such childish declamations.

Now go to your room - the adults are talking.

Edited March 5, 2018 by goldust40

[Gatsby77]

14 minutes ago, goldust40 said:

I doubt I've ever read such a condescending, pompous, and ludicrously silly post on these boards. To say that I lack empathy because I considered a film weak and half-baked, and that the themes and issues cack-handedly brought up in the film suffered due to this is just absurd and really very stupid.

And it's 1.3 billion, by the way, including the diaspora. If you think that my being dismissive of another slice of wish-fulfillment due to the way it plays fast and loose with identity politics makes me wrong, then so be it. And the fact that you consider such concepts as powerful or groundbreaking merely tells me that you have bought into the hype in such a prosaic, high-school manner - all people of African descent are crying out for a hero who can make them forget the reality of their situation?? Do you realize just how patronizing that is for someone of African descent to read that?? Like they've all been waiting for this film to save them.

And did you just say "realistic politics"? Err, I think we're confusing fantasy with reality here. In the real world, you see, there is nuance, and individualism, and a multiplicity of cultures, not grade school simplistic tubthumping. You've bought into the same old tedious binary nonsense like an over-eager student.

When I went to see the film (with an extremely partisan audience) I saw the death of pop culture. A mature filmmaker would've taken such themes and turned them into something dramatic and sophisticated. Instead we got the same formula as always with a few twists and you claim that this is an incredible step forward??

The fact that you have stated that I lack empathy because I didn't share your opinion on a film means that you have been successfully duped, and says far more about you than it does about me. I remember being livid about the horrors of the black experience in films such as 12 Years A Slave (as one example). The fact that I refuse to accept the dumb-downed message in a genre fantasy film  is my right and doesn't give you permission to consider me inferior due to this.

The film really did a number on you, didn't it?

Due respect, but if Black Panther is as weak and half-baked as you claim, to what (honestly) do you attribute its near-universal critical and commercial acclaim?

I get that political correctness and the willingness to touch identity politics at all could carry the film to a blockbuster $200 million weekend.

But it wouldn't continue to succeed if that were it. As was stated last night at the Oscars, it's *already* grossed more in the U.S. than all nine of this year's Best Picture nominees combined.

$500 million dollars domestic in 17 days and a 97% critical rating on Rotten Tomatoes is unprecedented.

Occam's Razor (and common sense) would dictate that there's something else going on here. That (gasp!) it might actually be _that good._

Or -- even if not -- that it's resonated with moviegoers in the U.S. in a very special way.

Is it perfect?

Hell no.

But it is a _really_ good film with a surprisingly nuanced villain.

That it's *also* proven to have far more cultural significance about race and identity politics than even last year's twin critical & commercial genre darlings Get Out and Wonder Woman is just a bonus.

[fantastic_four]

On 2/19/2018 at 8:43 AM, DiamondCityComics said:

On 2/19/2018 at 7:52 AM, Bosco685 said:

Wow! I guess Michael B. Jordan landed the role his acting deserved.

Black Panther: Is Killmonger Really Marvel’s Best Villain?

 

The guy had like half an hour of screen time.   Good character as far as why he did what he did but I didn't think the acting was anything special, just my opinion.

Heath Ledger's Joker was cool half because of Ledger's performance, but what most fans don't think about is that it's equally because of the screenwriting and character design.  In the case of Killmonger, the power of his performance is about 3/4 because of the screenwriting.  It's easy to identify with Killmonger's motivation both within the fantasy of the film as well as outside of the film in real life given the suspension of belief in a country as powerful as Wakanda, but that's ALL the writing, not Jordan's performance.  Jordan's performance just brings that writing to life in an extremely vivid way.

He did a fantastic job and I agree with people, he chews up the screen every time he's on it.  But while Jordan's conviction really sells the character, it's the writing that's the lion's share of the reason he's such a powerful presence.

[goldust40]

20 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Due respect, but if Black Panther is as weak and half-baked as you claim, to what (honestly) do you attribute its near-universal critical and commercial acclaim?

I get that political correctness and the willingness to touch identity politics at all could carry the film to a blockbuster $200 million weekend.

But it wouldn't continue to succeed if that were it. As was stated last night at the Oscars, it's *already* grossed more in the U.S. than all nine of this year's Best Picture nominees combined.

$500 million dollars domestic in 17 days and a 97% critical rating on Rotten Tomatoes is unprecedented.

Occam's Razor (and common sense) would dictate that there's something else going on here. That (gasp!) it might actually be _that good._

Or -- even if not -- that it's resonated with moviegoers in the U.S. in a very special way.

Is it perfect?

Hell no.

But it is a _really_ good film with a surprisingly nuanced villain.

That it's *also* proven to have far more cultural significance about race and identity politics than even last year's twin critical & commercial genre darlings Get Out and Wonder Woman is just a bonus.

It's become a cause celebre. People are afraid to say anything negative about it, and that is what I consider to be the main issue.

Plus commercial success doesn't equate with artistic quality.

Maybe FF is right - if enough people buy into the message, then for them, it's a good film. For me, it means that politics has won. It becomes significant about the politics due to the politics.

And as for nuance, sorry, but there really wasn't any. If this film truly is groundbreaking because for the first time in an event movie the villain delivered a screed about "white man imperialist / supremacist,  oppressed black man must have revenge" then so be it, it's groundbreaking. But it doesn't mean it's any good.

And whether it's good or not is more or less an irrelevance. In this respect, Black Panther is certainly unique. I have never witnessed such brazen, aggressive hype about any other film in living memory. No other film has had such an intense social media presence - most of the marketing has come from internet campaigns that had nothing to do with official marketing. It's almost Orwellian in its absurdity.

Edited March 5, 2018 by goldust40

[fantastic_four]

On 2/19/2018 at 2:00 PM, Hekla said:

On 2/19/2018 at 1:29 PM, Aweandlorder said:

 But I felt like it preached more to the African American community than it did to other races.

Yes, this was lost on the white audience (myself included, until pointed out to me).

It greatly paralleled the ideological distinction between Malcolm X and Martin Luther King.  I loved that Coogler chose for King's vision of peace win out in the end.

[fantastic_four]

On 2/21/2018 at 3:11 PM, Aweandlorder said:

On 2/21/2018 at 10:08 AM, drotto said:

There must be some trade paperbacks availible for Black Panther.  If not get those presses moving fast or you could have yet another missed opportunity to bring in new readers.

Exactly my thoughts! 

Even though I'm aware of a few black panther tpb (BP essential comes to mind) I'm sure that there are other fans of the movie that are seeking a book instead of a tpb collecting various comics. In their mind this probably seems like a movie based on a self contained story. And to not have a book ready to pick up is a HUGE missed opportunity. 

Hopefuly they're working on one soon

Coogler didn't create the idea of a militant faction of people who want to see Wakanda take over the world, did he?  I don't know myself, maybe he did, but usually these ideas are cobbled together from various runs, so I was assuming that the idea came from some run somewhere.  I heard a few people say on Kevin Smith's podcast that the best Black Panther run is the one done by Christopher Priest, but I don't know if that's where the idea of a militant Wakanda came from or not.

Edited March 5, 2018 by fantastic_four

[fantastic_four]

On 3/2/2018 at 12:13 PM, Bosco685 said:

I think if anything Black Panther stands alone, but as a solid proving ground to Hollywood its assumptions Black films will do poorly overseas (Japan and China pending).

I'm not in touch with Japanese culture over the last decade enough to know this for sure, but I'm skeptical the film will do well in those markets because of stories I've heard about rampant racism in Japan.  A few black American celebrities have talked about how surprised they were by how much racism they faced when visiting Japan, and I know that as recently as a few years ago there were entire stores in Tokyo devoted to selling the same explicitly racist Sambo goods that were popular in America prior to the mid-20th century.

I don't know anything about China's view of Africans, but given that they're an almost entirely heterogeneous ethnic population I'd guess it isn't good.  But that's a blind guess and I definitely hope I'm wrong.  

[comix4fun]

Finally got a chance to get to the movies this weekend to see it. 

Enjoyable film. 

Best part of it was the supporting cast and the overall casting. Might be the strongest overall cast quality of any Marvel film to date, down to the small roles. None of them stood out as "oh it's that actor playing that role" and more a seamless melding of the actor into the character. 

Didn't really enjoy how they basically made him into Black Iron Man with all the tech, but loved that they stopped short of making him overpowered like they did with IM. Marvel movies seems to have found their Deus Ex Machina in "tech" in general and vibranium specifically. Feels a little like a crutch at this point. I wouldn't mind a pivot away from so much tech. Netflix has gone all "punchy" with their series, everyone slapping the daylights out of each other, while almost everything in Marvel (set on earth especially) seems to be some suit, or device, or material, etc. 

Had a good time with Black Panther. My son liked it. It worked on a lot of levels mostly on that strength of cast. 

The villain was well done. They took the time and made him three dimensional and it worked. Setting up T'Challa and Eric as coming from the same place and having drastically different life experiences bringing them to where they were in the present day. 

Had T'Challa had Eric's life path or vice versa it would be easy to see them ending up in each other's shoes and that made for the most effective part of the narrative. 

It wasn't perfect, not at all, but what it did well it did VERY well. 

 

[fantastic_four]

1 hour ago, goldust40 said:

And the fact that you consider such concepts as powerful or groundbreaking merely tells me that you have bought into the hype in such a prosaic, high-school manner - all people of African descent are crying out for a hero who can make them forget the reality of their situation?? Do you realize just how patronizing that is for someone of African descent to read that?? Like they've all been waiting for this film to save them.

The only way you can make that observation is to have paid no attention to what black superhero fans have been saying about Black Panther as a character for decades, this film immediately prior to release, or the massive response by black fans and celebrities around the world following its release.  They weren't waiting for this film to "save them," but the tie of African-American culture to this film is beyond that of any other superhero by an order of magnitude.  Wesley Snipes knew that in the 90s, which is why he's repeatedly said the guy he wanted to bring to life and play in film was the Black Panther.

1 hour ago, goldust40 said:

When I went to see the film (with an extremely partisan audience) I saw the death of pop culture. A mature filmmaker would've taken such themes and turned them into something dramatic and sophisticated. Instead we got the same formula as always with a few twists and you claim that this is an incredible step forward??

Are you comparing Black Panther to films outside of the genre here?  That was the scope of my own comparison; I definitely wasn't comparing any form of heroic fiction to Milton, Baldwin, Faulkner, or Shakespeare whether the work in question is Black Panther, Beowulf, or the Illiad.  If you meant within the superhero genre, which films are you thinking of here?  I've never seen a superhero film more inspirational to any ethnic group than Black Panther is to African-Americans, particularly kids.

Edited March 5, 2018 by fantastic_four

[goldust40]

4 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

They only way you can make that observation is to have paid no attention to what black superhero fans have been saying about Black Panther as a character for decades, this film immediately prior to release, or the massive response by black fans and celebrities around the world following its release.  They weren't waiting for this film to "save them," but the tie of African-American culture to this film is beyond that of any other superhero by an order of magnitude.  Wesley Snipes knew that in the 90s, which is why he's repeatedly said the guy he wanted to bring to life and play in film was the Black Panther.

I've never heard of any "black superhero fans" talk about the Black Panther in that way prior to the announcement of the film's release. Certainly not on any comic-related site.  And as for those outside our nerdy little bubble, I doubt anyone would've heard of the character before the film's release in any case. I certainly don't recall any concerted campaign for the film to be made over the years from anyone.

And Snipes maybe black but he's also an actor. There's megabucks in spandex, don't you know.

Either way you're confusing "culture" with populism. You're also denying agency  with African-Americans, implying that their culture is homogeneous and monolithic, which is ludicrous, and yes, populist. There may be a connection, but it's built on hype (you said it yourself). The fact that you were happy to denounce me as unfeeling due to being critical about the project does say it all, really.

[Aweandlorder]

Wonder if the multiple mentions of BP last night at the Oscars will bring out more people to watch it this week  

[jimjum12]

Personally, I think it's refreshing..... and high time..... to watch a movie where the cool black guy doesn't get killed off ..... Judy and I are getting sick of that. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[fantastic_four]

1 hour ago, goldust40 said:

And as for those outside our nerdy little bubble, I doubt anyone would've heard of the character before the film's release in any case.

And now they have.  Which superhero do you imagine was a favorite of most black kids who aren't diehard fans like us prior to this?  And which one do you think it's now more likely to be?  That's the identity politics you're overlooking.

But I was wrong to say you're incapable of understanding it, which is why I deleted that from the quote within three minutes of posting it and regret you had to see it.  I apologize for that.  But I was confused as to how you could just summarily dismiss the strong impact on identity this character has the potential to have.  Before this, a black kid's favorite hero was most likely going to be Spider-Man, but now it's far more likely to be T'Challa, benevolent king of the most powerful nation on Earth.

Edited March 5, 2018 by fantastic_four

[Gatsby77]

14 minutes ago, goldust40 said:

 And as for those outside our nerdy little bubble, I doubt anyone would've heard of the character before the film's release in any case. I certainly don't recall any concerted campaign for the film to be made over the years from anyone.

And Snipes maybe black but he's also an actor. There's megabucks in spandex, don't you know.

1) Black Panther had already reached an audience much broader than comic fans due to Ta-Nehisi Coates signing on to write the comic two years ago. That was a _big_ deal, sort of equivalent to if Cornel West had written a solo Luke Cage comic in the late '90s. And Coates' run launched introduced the character to a huge audience that didn't normally read comic books.

2) As noted, Snipes campaigned to do Black Panther back in the mid-90s, before he even did the first Blade film. He tried to get it made for 2+ years. It was set up at Columbia with Snipes set to star and a screenwriter approved. See details on that here, as well as quotes from Tom DeFalco about it.

[fantastic_four]

19 minutes ago, goldust40 said:

I've never heard of any "black superhero fans" talk about the Black Panther in that way prior to the announcement of the film's release. Certainly not on any comic-related site.  And as for those outside our nerdy little bubble, I doubt anyone would've heard of the character before the film's release in any case. I certainly don't recall any concerted campaign for the film to be made over the years from anyone.

And Snipes maybe black but he's also an actor. There's megabucks in spandex, don't you know.

Then take Snipes as your first example of a black superhero fan high on Black Panther decades before now.  He personally tried to get that film made because he already knew of the character from when he was a kid and knew there was no black character like that known to the general public.  Here's an article detailing Snipes and his efforts back in the 90s to get a Black Panther film made.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/black-panther-wesley-snipes-reveals-untold-story-behind-90s-film-1078868