Next CLINK auction is starting to stack up some interesting pieces

[jjeanius]

The issue is about ethics, not about how much money someone can afford to bid.

 

From my understanding, the cover was originally a no reserve auction item. Jjeanius confirms this on page 2 of this very thread. It seems strange that his other consignments have no reserve.

 

It almost seems like a guarantee of $100K was made to the consignor. Rather than wait for the auction to end, CL decided to offset their risk by "placing" a bid now hoping someone else will in fact bid $100K and let them off the hook.

 

Cheers!

N.

 

I wasn't planning on chiming in, but I also wasn't expecting so much conversation over Josh's bid! As such, as much as I enjoy the speculation, I thought I'd go ahead and clear a few things up.

 

The guarantee arose from the first conversation I had with Josh regarding this piece. That conversation was a direct result of another conversation I was having with a collector about the possible private sale of this cover. I told Josh the initial price that was being kicked around, and he immediately told me that he thought that number was low, and he offered to pay that price on the spot if I wanted to sell. He also suggested that the cover could do much better at auction, and he offered to back it up with a guarantee.

 

I did not know that he would be using a reserve - I was under the impression that bidding would simply start at the reserve. At any rate, I don't see how his ethics would be called into question here. By telegraphing his bid this far in advance, he is giving all other prospective bidders as much information as they could possibly hope for. In particular, all potential bidders now know that the cover WILL sell at auction. So...any hopes of waiting it out and making a lower offer once the auction ends without hitting reserve are now clearly out the window. In addition, if Josh wanted to stack the deck on buying the cover himself, he would have done just that - waited until the auction ends hoping that the reserve is not met.

 

Now, all prospective bidders have as much time as possible to re-calibrate their expectations accordingly, and they can decide just how high they want to go if they do decide to bid. Josh is now a bit of a lame duck in this auction, and one single bid will take him out of the equation.

 

As Josh himself has said in the note added to the listing - if i was a prospective bidder, it wouldn't be Josh's bid that I would be worried about.

[alxjhnsn]

From where I sit (very low 4 figures once or twice a year), that seems to apply to lots of folks. I would imagine that there is an even larger pool lower than me that feels the same way about me.

 

Basically, there's always someone with more money, more speed, more strength, more smarts, or a prettier girlfriend. Just the way it is and that's not a reason to be disheartened. It might just as easily be a reasons to strive and save.

 

True, but those other people aren't the head of the auction house that's offering the piece for sale. And therein lies the difference.

 

I agree with that.

[suspense39]

So basically it's a private sale made public, but someone can buy for more if they want.

[jjeanius]

I don't know how it's any different than any other "Reserve" auction - the minimum bid has been placed. That's it.

[batman_fan]

I actually don't think people should get too hung up on Josh's bid. Josh is a collector (he actually has a piece in his collection I would kill for). Lets see if he ends up with it or someone outbids him.

[vodou]

Not to take anything away from the piece, the consignor, etc., but everyone should remember that Josh gets an automatic 10% discount because his reserve busting bid pushes the consignment fee back to himself (or the organization, if you prefer).

 

And to be fair, the same with every piece Jim Halperin has added to his personal collection from Heritage...except for him it's a 30% savings

 

All of this assuming standard premiums are in place, not always the case on key consignments of course.

 

Regarding Halperin and Heritage, I think it's safe to say that the (higher-end) consignments he tends to bid on almost assuredly have no seller's commission, and very often are getting a piece of the buyer's premium. Even just waiving the seller's commission, it doesn't work out to the 19.5-20% savings people think, because the math works out to 1/1.195-1 = 16.3%. Plus, I think it's very likely that he does pay the buyer's premium (it wouldn't be fair to the other partners & investors if he wasn't), which means he's only getting a portion of that BP effectively rebated to him (the amount commensurate with his ownership interest in Heritage - tax-effected if you want to get nit-picky about it). So, in the end, I suspect that his true cost advantage is probably more along the lines of low-to-mid single digits.

All good, I was doing simple quick math. But Jim has also vacuumed up a lot of mid/low art too. As others have stated, somebody else always has more money, so that's neither here nor there but there is information arbitrage at play. And at least some economic advantage too. If nothing else, every bid placed on every lot (in a given sale) before Jim puts up a bid is simply adding to his firepower!

 

(But please - I'm very much j/k on that last part.)

 

Certainly in the securities world you can't be both a broker and a dealer on a single transaction. In other words you're either representing a seller or you are the seller (from inventory), not both. Otherwise it's double-dipping on fees and commissions. That goes to conflict of interest, and who's really working for who. Violations happen all the time though. Some would argue it's regular course of business. The SEC is either quite corrupt or sucks at the job (take your pick), and definitely spends much of the workday surfing prn, but the rules are there. Not so in art/collectibles, which is how the arbitrage exists to be taken advantage of! So with rules, that are ignored, you get a false sense of security. And with our stuff here, it's buyer beware to whatever extent the risk of insider bidding bothers you (or doesn't).

[GreatEscape]

I don't know how it's any different than any other "Reserve" auction - the minimum bid has been placed. That's it.

 

Agree. Josh has also stated that he won't exceed his $95k bid, so other collectors bidding can do so without risk of a higher bid from Josh. I have no problem with the way Josh handled his interest in this cover.

[Doc Joe]

.

 

That said, the bigger issue for me is that it's disheartening when you're the underbidder on a piece that Jim wins. Heritage might argue that others should feel free to outbid him, but, c'mon, the guy has more firepower behind him than just about anyone in the hobby, so are these pieces that he's strongly going after really available to their clientele? I'm generally a big fan and defender of Heritage, but employee bidding on their own auctions still rankles me.

 

 

+1

[Doc Joe]

I don't know how it's any different than any other "Reserve" auction - the minimum bid has been placed. That's it.

 

Agree. Josh has also stated that he won't exceed his $95k bid, so other collectors bidding can do so without risk of a higher bid from Josh. I have no problem with the way Josh handled his interest in this cover.

 

+1

[Tokay]

Someone went to 100k...

[dem1138]

Someone went to 100k...

 

Well there you go.

 

Most shocking to me at this point is the Deadpool #27 cover by Art Adams.

[mister_not_so_nice]

Someone went to 100k...

 

Well there you go.

 

Most shocking to me at this point is the Deadpool #27 cover by Art Adams.

 

Agreed. And not a single sexy A.A. lady in sight. DEADPAN has it's fanatics too, I guess

[Koa]

I don't know how it's any different than any other "Reserve" auction - the minimum bid has been placed. That's it.

 

Agree. Josh has also stated that he won't exceed his $95k bid, so other collectors bidding can do so without risk of a higher bid from Josh. I have no problem with the way Josh handled his interest in this cover.

 

I actually don't think people should get too hung up on Josh's bid. Josh is a collector (he actually has a piece in his collection I would kill for). Lets see if he ends up with it or someone outbids him.

 

 

I'm sure josh is a good guy and all that but

 

My question is if Josh was only going to bid the reserve of 95k why not wait until after the auction to bid the reserve if it wasn't met? If the cover doesn't meet the reserve he could buy it clean. if the cover does exceed the reserve he was never going to bid anyway.

 

Yes Josh disclosed his bid. he also said he would only meet the reserve and bid no further. It was at 71k when Josh made his bid. Maybe the true market value of this cover never gets to 95K.

 

 

Josh still benefit's if someone goes above his bid. it's not fair. especially if there is a policy in place.

 

 

Doesn't an auction house owner bidding on high end auctions give the perception that you're playing against the house? Doesn't knowing that james halipern could be your competition in a heritage auction using make other collectors suspect of the prices at auction?

 

[jjeanius]

I don't know how it's any different than any other "Reserve" auction - the minimum bid has been placed. That's it.

 

Agree. Josh has also stated that he won't exceed his $95k bid, so other collectors bidding can do so without risk of a higher bid from Josh. I have no problem with the way Josh handled his interest in this cover.

 

I actually don't think people should get too hung up on Josh's bid. Josh is a collector (he actually has a piece in his collection I would kill for). Lets see if he ends up with it or someone outbids him.

 

 

I'm sure josh is a good guy and all that but

 

My question is if Josh was only going to bid the reserve of 95k why not wait until after the auction to bid the reserve if it wasn't met? If the cover doesn't meet the reserve he could buy it clean. if the cover does exceed the reserve he was never going to bid anyway.

 

Yes Josh disclosed his bid. he also said he would only meet the reserve and bid no further. It was at 71k when Josh made his bid. Maybe the true market value of this cover never gets to 95K.

 

 

Josh still benefit's if someone goes above his bid. it's not fair. especially if there is a policy in place.

 

 

Doesn't an auction house owner bidding on high end auctions give the perception that you're playing against the house? Doesn't knowing that james halipern could be your competition in a heritage auction using make other collectors suspect of the prices at auction?

 

The cover was already at $80k when Josh bid the reserve. And...shortly thereafter, he was outbid @ $100k. So...all of this seems like a moot point. For the sake of conversation, though...

 

By bidding as early as he did, he informed everyone that the reserve was met, and the art would sell. This then afforded all interested parties plenty of time to decide if they wanted to go higher than that (as one bidder has already done).

 

You're right - if Josh's sole goal was to buy the art, his best move would have been to wait it out in the hope that no one trips the reserve - then he could buy it at the reserve price once the auction ended. On the other hand, his first priority in this case is to the consignor, and to other potential bidders, so he made his bid public well in advance of the end of the auction. This was to the detriment of his own goal to purchase the art, and to the benefit of both the consignor (as now the reserve has been met), and the other potential bidders (as they now know that the reserve has been met, and high bidder takes it).

 

I find it ironic that his public bid and declaration have caused some doubters. If he had any intention of being "shady" about it, and wanted only to "win at all costs", the LAST thing he would have done is make his intentions known. And yet, by doing so - by being up front about it - his integrity is being questioned by some. I honestly don't get it.

[vodou]

And yet, by doing so - by being up front about it - his integrity is being questioned by some. I honestly don't get it.

Some of us don't think he should be bidding at all. Conflict of interest. Plain and simple. Sort of like when Hank Paulson became Treasury Secretary, he had to divest himself of all his Goldman Sachs shares.

[Brian Peck]

At least he states when he bids. HA doesn't say anything and I know that thing goes on alot with their staff.

 

 

[mtlevy]

Not allowed to buy comic art...that is a high bar for any position!

[Bird]

And yet, by doing so - by being up front about it - his integrity is being questioned by some. I honestly don't get it.

 

 

I am not sure how you can not get it. I understand not agreeing, but it is a pretty clear conflict which was outlined in your very own post.

[Koa]

I don't know how it's any different than any other "Reserve" auction - the minimum bid has been placed. That's it.

 

Agree. Josh has also stated that he won't exceed his $95k bid, so other collectors bidding can do so without risk of a higher bid from Josh. I have no problem with the way Josh handled his interest in this cover.

 

I actually don't think people should get too hung up on Josh's bid. Josh is a collector (he actually has a piece in his collection I would kill for). Lets see if he ends up with it or someone outbids him.

 

 

I'm sure josh is a good guy and all that but

 

My question is if Josh was only going to bid the reserve of 95k why not wait until after the auction to bid the reserve if it wasn't met? If the cover doesn't meet the reserve he could buy it clean. if the cover does exceed the reserve he was never going to bid anyway.

 

Yes Josh disclosed his bid. he also said he would only meet the reserve and bid no further. It was at 71k when Josh made his bid. Maybe the true market value of this cover never gets to 95K.

 

 

Josh still benefit's if someone goes above his bid. it's not fair. especially if there is a policy in place.

 

 

Doesn't an auction house owner bidding on high end auctions give the perception that you're playing against the house? Doesn't knowing that james halipern could be your competition in a heritage auction using make other collectors suspect of the prices at auction?

 

The cover was already at $80k when Josh bid the reserve. And...shortly thereafter, he was outbid @ $100k. So...all of this seems like a moot point. For the sake of conversation, though...

 

I disagree that it's a moot point because somebody outbid him. Because you pay 11 dollars more for a case of bottled water before a hurricane doesn't make it alright. An auction should have a natural progression for the bidders involved. Moving the bid 15k is not chump change. there is still lots of room for the market to determine it's value.

 

 

You're right - if Josh's sole goal was to buy the art, his best move would have been to wait it out in the hope that no one trips the reserve - then he could buy it at the reserve price once the auction ended. On the other hand, his first priority in this case is to the consignor, and to other potential bidders, so he made his bid public well in advance of the end of the auction. This was to the detriment of his own goal to purchase the art, and to the benefit of both the consignor (as now the reserve has been met), and the other potential bidders (as they now know that the reserve has been met, and high bidder takes it).

 

I find it ironic that his public bid and declaration have caused some doubters. If he had any intention of being "shady" about it, and wanted only to "win at all costs", the LAST thing he would have done is make his intentions known. And yet, by doing so - by being up front about it - his integrity is being questioned by some. I honestly don't get it.

 

By bidding as early as he did, he informed everyone that the reserve was met, and the art would sell. This then afforded all interested parties plenty of time to decide if they wanted to go higher than that (as one bidder has already done).

 

I don't know Josh and Im not going to make this personal a attack his character.

 

Josh stated that Comiclink has a policy in place that prohibits employees and owners from bidding on their auctions and he should have honored that IMO. I don't think disclosing that you subverted a policy counts as acting in the best interests of those bidding. I think when you're in a position of authority in any institution that needs to come first.

 

 

I bid through comic link often over the last year. I think his decision to do this was a mistake and It makes me more pessimistic about the hobby in general and definitely about these big auction prices.

 

 

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[jjeanius]

Do you understand that Josh offered a guarantee on this auction, and it never would have sold below $95k?

 

Whether or not he bumped it up to reserve, it would NOT have sold for less.

 

So, yeah, he could have put a $100k reserve rather than bidding on it at $95k. End result is the same: Either someone bids $100k and the auction is live, or it fails to hit reserve and Josh buys it @ $95k. It seems to me that Josh is actually giving potential bidders more information to go on than they would have normally (i.e., not knowing what the reserve might be, etc). As a bidder, I think I would actually prefer that.