Action Comics #2 CGC 9.4

[Cat-Man_America]

The cgc seems to let more and more restoration of a blue label book...

 

How do you figure? They seem to be consistant that CT and glue (or glue residue) are only allowed in a blue label if it doesn't improve the grade. In fact, they count the foreign substance as a defect against the grade.

 

Have you seen differently?

 

I don't see anything differently, that the CGC you are talking about....

 

Restored should be just that....whether its putting tape on a chip. pressing a book like a grilled cheese sandwich on a grill, or painting it with a spray can.....now you can clean and polish it.....whatever that means...and it is unrestored...even though you are intending to make the book better or cleaner that the original condition....what a croc.....some books get purple, some green, and some restored books get blue...stop the madness....give every book a even playing field chance.....

 

Because VC...you know this is just the beginning of the erosion of the blue label...who knows what is gonna be ok next?.

 

Darn it Mitch, now you've got me thinking about polishing off a grilled cheese sandwich & chips.

[tth2]

If it's just the resto bringing down hammer prices, if the label color has nothing to do with it, then all those blue-label Golden Age books with a "very small amount of color touch" should be selling for PLOD-level prices, but they're not. In fact, they repeatedly sell at the same level as truly unrestored copies.

 

There's only one logical takeaway from that. Label color, not just resto, affects hammer prices.

 

I do see those GA books with "very slight- XXXXX" restoration on blue labels going for less. There are many collectors who are on the record saying they will only pay PLOD prices for those books. They do go for more than straight purple labels however, but that's just as likely because the market is factoring in that the "very small amount of"-whatever can be removed with minimal or no damage to the book in grade. The greater the restoration the greater the discount regardless of the label, and as stated on those GA "blue labels" those books always have a very small amount.

 

-J.

 

I don't believe this is true. Apart from you, I've never heard anyone make such a statement.

[VintageComics]

The reason those slight amount of ct or glue books ended up in bluevlabels and not purple is because the 'resto' on those books does not increase the grade, so it's not really 'restored' in that sense. The ct and glue is incidental and is factored in as a defect when the book is graded.

 

In my opinion it would be unfortunate to put a book like that in a purple holder. If you did, the books would be done a disservice.

 

In this case the label color makes all the difference.

 

Well, the people who did the ct and used glue to repair small spine splits certainly thought they were improving the appearance of these books or they wouldn't have done it. In that sense, resto was performed on the books and they would like have ended up as PLODs if CGC had felt able to do so in the early days.

 

I agree that a large portion of the books were likely touched up for improvement, but there arebalso plenty of books that may have glue or a pen marking on them and there was no intention to improve the grade, and I can think of several examples which could be representative of them.

 

The first that comes to mind is my old Detroit Trolley Marvel Mystery Comics #4. It was a CGC 4.0, in a blue label, and the book was accompanied with letters from Susan Cicconi, and two other resto experts who ALL agreed that there was no color touch on the book. They argued it was either a printing defect or a foreign substance on the edge of the cover. CGC didn't care. They called it CT, downgraded the book for it (it would have graded a 4.5 otherwise) and put it in a blue label. Now, you tell me : did this book belong in a purple label?

 

The book has passed through several boards members and each of us were happy to pay full pop for the book.

 

Another is the Classic Captain Marvel cover that GAtor owned. From what I remember, he dropped a blue pen on a blue cover by accident and the book ended up with a CT designation. Maybe GAtor can elaborate as I don't remember the label color.

 

Finally, it's somewhat common knowledge that some old time collectors would put either tape or nail polish on books that didn't need it to make the spines last longer. Heck, I owned a set of SA JIM books where the entire margin of the cover was covered in tape. The book was new itherwise.

 

That tape falls off over time or the book ages and falls below the intended target grade that it was at and then voila, you have all sorts of glue or color on books where the work doesn't improve the grade.

 

Anyhow, I just wanted to illustrate how books can have CT and glue designations, without intent to restore...and THAT to me is a terrific reason for a well stepped designation system so that the book gets the best designation possible without being wrong. To put any of the above books into a purple label is just not right IMO?

 

Oh sure, there are books -- mostly mid-grade and below -- that were taped up for purposes of improving readability. I did that to more than a few GA books because I was collecting them to read in those days when reprints weren't readily available. Taping up a popped staple or spine split made it easier to read the book without damaging it further. Of course, these days no one would do that because everyone has his eye on resale value and long-term preservation and tape obviously degrades the book.

 

I think the focus of the discussion here, though, is on high-grade books that had minor defects -- a spine tick, a small spine split, a tiny piece hanging by a thread. The ct and glue on these books was definitely intended to improve their appearance. In that sense, they are restored books in blue labels.

 

But as I said, it's CGC's stance that if the work done to the book actually improved the technical grade, it was designated restored and if it didn't, it went into a blue label and the work was considered a foreign product and therefore a defect.

 

So are those books actually restored?

 

I know my MMC #4 wasn't and I think all previous owners will agree.

 

[VintageComics]

The cgc seems to let more and more restoration of a blue label book...

 

How do you figure? They seem to be consistant that CT and glue (or glue residue) are only allowed in a blue label if it doesn't improve the grade. In fact, they count the foreign substance as a defect against the grade.

 

Have you seen differently?

 

Are you sure about this? Is this their public position? If it were true across the board, I would think we would see the minor amount of ct or glue label notes on more blue label SA books, when in fact we rarely if ever see it on those books.

 

I know it's their position for GA books. Not for SA books.

[G.A.tor]

B

The reason those slight amount of ct or glue books ended up in bluevlabels and not purple is because the 'resto' on those books does not increase the grade, so it's not really 'restored' in that sense. The ct and glue is incidental and is factored in as a defect when the book is graded.

 

In my opinion it would be unfortunate to put a book like that in a purple holder. If you did, the books would be done a disservice.

 

In this case the label color makes all the difference.

 

Well, the people who did the ct and used glue to repair small spine splits certainly thought they were improving the appearance of these books or they wouldn't have done it. In that sense, resto was performed on the books and they would like have ended up as PLODs if CGC had felt able to do so in the early days.

 

I agree that a large portion of the books were likely touched up for improvement, but there arebalso plenty of books that may have glue or a pen marking on them and there was no intention to improve the grade, and I can think of several examples which could be representative of them.

 

The first that comes to mind is my old Detroit Trolley Marvel Mystery Comics #4. It was a CGC 4.0, in a blue label, and the book was accompanied with letters from Susan Cicconi, and two other resto experts who ALL agreed that there was no color touch on the book. They argued it was either a printing defect or a foreign substance on the edge of the cover. CGC didn't care. They called it CT, downgraded the book for it (it would have graded a 4.5 otherwise) and put it in a blue label. Now, you tell me : did this book belong in a purple label?

 

The book has passed through several boards members and each of us were happy to pay full pop for the book.

 

Another is the Classic Captain Marvel cover that GAtor owned. From what I remember, he dropped a blue pen on a blue cover by accident and the book ended up with a CT designation. Maybe GAtor can elaborate as I don't remember the label color.

 

Finally, it's somewhat common knowledge that some old time collectors would put either tape or nail polish on books that didn't need it to make the spines last longer. Heck, I owned a set of SA JIM books where the entire margin of the cover was covered in tape. The book was new itherwise.

 

That tape falls off over time or the book ages and falls below the intended target grade that it was at and then voila, you have all sorts of glue or color on books where the work doesn't improve the grade.

 

Anyhow, I just wanted to illustrate how books can have CT and glue designations, without intent to restore...and THAT to me is a terrific reason for a well stepped designation system so that the book gets the best designation possible without being wrong. To put any of the above books into a purple label is just not right IMO?

 

Oh sure, there are books -- mostly mid-grade and below -- that were taped up for purposes of improving readability. I did that to more than a few GA books because I was collecting them to read in those days when reprints weren't readily available. Taping up a popped staple or spine split made it easier to read the book without damaging it further. Of course, these days no one would do that because everyone has his eye on resale value and long-term preservation and tape obviously degrades the book.

 

I think the focus of the discussion here, though, is on high-grade books that had minor defects -- a spine tick, a small spine split, a tiny piece hanging by a thread. The ct and glue on these books was definitely intended to improve their appearance. In that sense, they are restored books in blue labels.

 

But as I said, it's CGC's stance that if the work done to the book actually improved the technical grade, it was designated restored and if it didn't, it went into a blue label and the work was considered a foreign product and therefore a defect.

 

So are those books actually restored?

 

I know my MMC #4 wasn't and I think all previous owners will agree.

mmc5

[batman_fan]

Darn it Mitch, now you've got me thinking about polishing off a grilled cheese sandwich & chips.

 

Best grilled cheese is at the West End Tavern in Boulder, CO.

 

cheddar cheese, goat cheese, caramelized onions, spinach, and tomato jam all on thick homemade bread with lots of butter

[VintageComics]

B

The reason those slight amount of ct or glue books ended up in bluevlabels and not purple is because the 'resto' on those books does not increase the grade, so it's not really 'restored' in that sense. The ct and glue is incidental and is factored in as a defect when the book is graded.

 

In my opinion it would be unfortunate to put a book like that in a purple holder. If you did, the books would be done a disservice.

 

In this case the label color makes all the difference.

 

Well, the people who did the ct and used glue to repair small spine splits certainly thought they were improving the appearance of these books or they wouldn't have done it. In that sense, resto was performed on the books and they would like have ended up as PLODs if CGC had felt able to do so in the early days.

 

I agree that a large portion of the books were likely touched up for improvement, but there arebalso plenty of books that may have glue or a pen marking on them and there was no intention to improve the grade, and I can think of several examples which could be representative of them.

 

The first that comes to mind is my old Detroit Trolley Marvel Mystery Comics #4. It was a CGC 4.0, in a blue label, and the book was accompanied with letters from Susan Cicconi, and two other resto experts who ALL agreed that there was no color touch on the book. They argued it was either a printing defect or a foreign substance on the edge of the cover. CGC didn't care. They called it CT, downgraded the book for it (it would have graded a 4.5 otherwise) and put it in a blue label. Now, you tell me : did this book belong in a purple label?

 

The book has passed through several boards members and each of us were happy to pay full pop for the book.

 

Another is the Classic Captain Marvel cover that GAtor owned. From what I remember, he dropped a blue pen on a blue cover by accident and the book ended up with a CT designation. Maybe GAtor can elaborate as I don't remember the label color.

 

Finally, it's somewhat common knowledge that some old time collectors would put either tape or nail polish on books that didn't need it to make the spines last longer. Heck, I owned a set of SA JIM books where the entire margin of the cover was covered in tape. The book was new itherwise.

 

That tape falls off over time or the book ages and falls below the intended target grade that it was at and then voila, you have all sorts of glue or color on books where the work doesn't improve the grade.

 

Anyhow, I just wanted to illustrate how books can have CT and glue designations, without intent to restore...and THAT to me is a terrific reason for a well stepped designation system so that the book gets the best designation possible without being wrong. To put any of the above books into a purple label is just not right IMO?

 

Oh sure, there are books -- mostly mid-grade and below -- that were taped up for purposes of improving readability. I did that to more than a few GA books because I was collecting them to read in those days when reprints weren't readily available. Taping up a popped staple or spine split made it easier to read the book without damaging it further. Of course, these days no one would do that because everyone has his eye on resale value and long-term preservation and tape obviously degrades the book.

 

I think the focus of the discussion here, though, is on high-grade books that had minor defects -- a spine tick, a small spine split, a tiny piece hanging by a thread. The ct and glue on these books was definitely intended to improve their appearance. In that sense, they are restored books in blue labels.

 

But as I said, it's CGC's stance that if the work done to the book actually improved the technical grade, it was designated restored and if it didn't, it went into a blue label and the work was considered a foreign product and therefore a defect.

 

So are those books actually restored?

 

I know my MMC #4 wasn't and I think all previous owners will agree.

mmc5

 

Correct.

 

[jimjum12]

Darn it Mitch, now you've got me thinking about polishing off a grilled cheese sandwich & chips.

 

Best grilled cheese is at the West End Tavern in Boulder, CO.

 

cheddar cheese, goat cheese, caramelized onions, spinach, and tomato jam all on thick homemade bread with lots of butter

 

.... best grill cheese is at MY house.... if you're ever in this area you can put it to the test...... but fair warning, it will turn you into a Zombie Slave, eager to do whatever it might take to receive another..... GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

...... as for the topic at hand..... what is the most recently slabbed book that has received a blue despite glue or color ? I haven't seen a newer example and wonder if they discontinued that wildly unpopular policy....

[Silver Surfer]

The reason those slight amount of ct or glue books ended up in bluevlabels and not purple is because the 'resto' on those books does not increase the grade, so it's not really 'restored' in that sense. The ct and glue is incidental and is factored in as a defect when the book is graded.

 

In my opinion it would be unfortunate to put a book like that in a purple holder. If you did, the books would be done a disservice.

 

In this case the label color makes all the difference.

 

Well, the people who did the ct and used glue to repair small spine splits certainly thought they were improving the appearance of these books or they wouldn't have done it. In that sense, resto was performed on the books and they would like have ended up as PLODs if CGC had felt able to do so in the early days.

 

I agree that a large portion of the books were likely touched up for improvement, but there arebalso plenty of books that may have glue or a pen marking on them and there was no intention to improve the grade, and I can think of several examples which could be representative of them.

 

The first that comes to mind is my old Detroit Trolley Marvel Mystery Comics #4. It was a CGC 4.0, in a blue label, and the book was accompanied with letters from Susan Cicconi, and two other resto experts who ALL agreed that there was no color touch on the book. They argued it was either a printing defect or a foreign substance on the edge of the cover. CGC didn't care. They called it CT, downgraded the book for it (it would have graded a 4.5 otherwise) and put it in a blue label. Now, you tell me : did this book belong in a purple label?

The book has passed through several boards members and each of us were happy to pay full pop for the book.

 

 

Guilty as charged, loved that book. I think there was a bit of petty pay back at play because the collection originally came from Marnin.

[Sqeggs]

The cgc seems to let more and more restoration of a blue label book...

 

How do you figure? They seem to be consistant that CT and glue (or glue residue) are only allowed in a blue label if it doesn't improve the grade. In fact, they count the foreign substance as a defect against the grade.

 

Have you seen differently?

 

Are you sure about this? Is this their public position? If it were true across the board, I would think we would see the minor amount of ct or glue label notes on more blue label SA books, when in fact we rarely if ever see it on those books.

 

I know it's their position for GA books. Not for SA books.

 

Actually, that's my point. If their policy with respect to GA books was that minor ct and glue would receive a blue label if the result doesn't improve the grade (I'm still skeptical that this is a publicly stated policy), CGC would have no reason not to apply that rule across the board -- to SA, BA, or even modern books.

 

In fact, non-GA books usually (always?) receive a PLOD designation if they have ct or glue and GA books would as well if CGC had had their druthers back when they first started. Instead, they bowed to force majeure given blowback from dealers/collectors who owned these books. That's my take, at any rate.

 

The bottom line is that employing a consistent standard, GA books with minor ct and glue should be PLODs. The question of what they sell for relative to books without such label notes (the answer is the discount is small; in some cases zero) is another issue.

[Cat-Man_America]

The cgc seems to let more and more restoration of a blue label book...

 

How do you figure? They seem to be consistant that CT and glue (or glue residue) are only allowed in a blue label if it doesn't improve the grade. In fact, they count the foreign substance as a defect against the grade.

 

Have you seen differently?

 

Are you sure about this? Is this their public position? If it were true across the board, I would think we would see the minor amount of ct or glue label notes on more blue label SA books, when in fact we rarely if ever see it on those books.

 

I know it's their position for GA books. Not for SA books.

 

Actually, that's my point. If their policy with respect to GA books was that minor ct and glue would receive a blue label if the result doesn't improve the grade (I'm still skeptical that this is a publicly stated policy), CGC would have no reason not to apply that rule across the board -- to SA, BA, or even modern books.

 

In fact, non-GA books usually (always?) receive a PLOD designation if they have ct or glue and GA books would as well if CGC had had their druthers back when they first started. Instead, they bowed to force majeure given blowback from dealers/collectors who owned these books. That's my take, at any rate.

 

The bottom line is that employing a consistent standard, GA books with minor ct and glue should be PLODs. The question of what they sell for relative to books without such label notes (the answer is the discount is small; in some cases zero) is another issue.

 

All things being equal, consistency would require one standard for all comics across the board, but that's where things start breaking down. All things are not equal. Comics published in the 1940's aren't anything like the comics published today, they weren't the same size, they don't exist in the same quantities, they're subject to age related issues impacting staples and PQ, and so on. One size doesn't fit all.

 

Referring back to paper collectibles and my Antiques Roadshow analogies, age and rarity go hand in hand with acceptance of professional restoration and conservation practices. Values aren't determined by comparing old tattered paper with new, but rather the historical importance of the collectible weighed in concert with scarcity. IMO, those who try separating comics from other paper collectibles aren't applying good logic and do a disservice to our hobby by not taking the long view.

 

The idea is that conservation is important for the preservation of scarce collectibles at risk of disintegration. Comics, like other paper ephemera should be evaluated by professional standards that don't penalize the collectible by those who want to artificially inflate or deflate the collectible's value. Color coding feeds an unreasonable paranoia of undisclosed restoration that dates back before the advent of dependable third party grading services.

[batman_fan]

Darn it Mitch, now you've got me thinking about polishing off a grilled cheese sandwich & chips.

 

Best grilled cheese is at the West End Tavern in Boulder, CO.

 

cheddar cheese, goat cheese, caramelized onions, spinach, and tomato jam all on thick homemade bread with lots of butter

 

.... best grill cheese is at MY house.... if you're ever in this area you can put it to the test...... but fair warning, it will turn you into a Zombie Slave, eager to do whatever it might take to receive another..... GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

...... as for the topic at hand..... what is the most recently slabbed book that has received a blue despite glue or color ? I haven't seen a newer example and wonder if they discontinued that wildly unpopular policy....

 

You are on! and if you ever get to Boulder, I will buy you a Grilled Cheese at the West End (thumbs u

[Sqeggs]

Darn it Mitch, now you've got me thinking about polishing off a grilled cheese sandwich & chips.

 

Best grilled cheese is at the West End Tavern in Boulder, CO.

 

cheddar cheese, goat cheese, caramelized onions, spinach, and tomato jam all on thick homemade bread with lots of butter

 

.... best grill cheese is at MY house.... if you're ever in this area you can put it to the test...... but fair warning, it will turn you into a Zombie Slave, eager to do whatever it might take to receive another..... GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

...... as for the topic at hand..... what is the most recently slabbed book that has received a blue despite glue or color ? I haven't seen a newer example and wonder if they discontinued that wildly unpopular policy....

 

I guess the test would come if someone were to submit a raw high-grade Church book with minor ct or glue (or both!). At this late date, I doubt they would put it in a purple slab but I also doubt they would put it in a blue slab without label notes. So maybe by default they are stuck continuing the policy even if they would prefer not to.

[jimjum12]

The Church copy of Adventure 82 is Very slight CT in a PLOD...... should be in the HA Archives...... I think it was released slightly later than my 75 (Rockford) with "Very minor glue....." in the Universal. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Sqeggs]

Right you are.

 

 

I wonder, though, whether it's the amount of ct (note that it's a "small amount"), rather than a change in policy, that accounts for the purple label?

[jimjum12]

I bid on it but it ended up going for multiple of guide...... and I doubt an official statement other than what ( IIRC ) is stated in the fine print disclaimer on the back of the label will ever be provided. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Sqeggs]

It's great book. I was just wondering whether it had more ct than they are willing to put in a blue label. (It looks like there may be a fair amount in the red area.)

 

In other words, would one of the books with "minor" or "very minor" amounts of ct (rather than a "small amount" of ct) that is currently in a blue label still go in a blue label if it were graded today. My guess is that it might.

[jimjum12]

..... technically, they should stick to policy for credibility's sake...... but they probably might consider just "missing" it. But all I can do is speculate. Either way, they're kind of bound to continue the policy if a previous book is resubbed ...... unless they want a 3 week *spoon* storm in CG .......GOD BLESS...

 

jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Sqeggs]

..... technically, they should stick to policy for credibility's sake...... but they probably might consider just "missing" it. But all I can do is speculate. Either way, they're kind of bound to continue the policy if a previous book is resubbed ......unless they want a 3 week *spoon* storm in CG .......GOD BLESS...

 

jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

[VintageComics]

It's great book. I was just wondering whether it had more ct than they are willing to put in a blue label. (It looks like there may be a fair amount in the red area.)

 

In other words, would one of the books with "minor" or "very minor" amounts of ct (rather than a "small amount" of ct) that is currently in a blue label still go in a blue label if it were graded today. My guess is that it might.

 

I am quite sure that it all depends on how the CT affects the grade, meaning it's relative to the grade of the book the CT is on.