Action Comics #2 CGC 9.4

[bluechip]

The only real thing that the purple label does is save the people who aren't interested in restored books that extra click or two to look closer at the book when they scroll through listings. I personally appreciate not having to scrutinize a label in order to discern something as basic as whether or not there has been restoration, or, similarly, if there is a signature on the book. I also scroll right past yellow labels. So by the logic of many boardies posting on here I suppose we should also do away with yellow labels and count all signatures (verified or not) as "defects" as well.

 

No I think the current labeling system works just fine. I think this so-called "conserved" labeling is already the compromise that some have asked for, though I do believe that most collectors see it as restored anyway. I don't think it will bring buyers of blue label books into the auction. The same people who bid on this book will be the same people who don't mind restored comics. Trying to change minds on either side is pointless. Either you don't mind restored books or you do. The system CGC has in place is simple and convenient for both the casual buyer and the seasoned collector. Changing the label won't do anything to change the perception or the value of restored comics. Trying to "hide" a restored book in a blue label slab, if anything, would be a step backward when it comes to full transparency with regards to restoration that CGC has brought to the table, and it would dilute one of the main and best benefits of their service. Blue label stands for "Universal Grade". Purple for "Restored Grade". Regardless of one's opinion on restoration itself, it really cannot be disputed that these books are not the same and should not be treated the same and they should not be graded the same and therefore have no business being in the same type of slab for that reason.

 

As for CBCS, yes their grade for restored books is also an "apparent grade". (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Increasingly, the people who say the colored label system "works just fine" are not saying so because they genuinely disagree that it creates an exaggerated gap in values, they're saying it because they know it creates that gap and like ithat way.

 

To those who feels that way I would respect the logic of the argument more to hear it that way, instead of hearing "it's not the label color" etc.

 

"They really are invariably different" only in one consistent way, that they are in different colored labels. Otherwise we would never see books appear in one label and then get regraded in another. And otherwise we would not have these arguments on this board that this or that book "should be in a purple label" I could go on but it's clear that nothing dissuades you. You know it skews the values, and you know it's not consistent, and you know it can be used to screw the novice just as easilly as to protect him, and no number of examples will ever cause you to say anything but I like it that way.

 

I hesitate to imply that an argument is insincere but the "yellow label" jibe says a lot about your stand. The reason anybody addresses whether something is a problem is to point out that its creating problems. If yellow labels destroyed values or were applied inconsistently or created any other problem whatsoever, or if anyone objected to them sincerely for any reason whatsoever, then there would be a discussion about changing it. So to throw it that feels quite insincere

 

For the record, I have bought books in yellow labels and if you want to change it to a neutral colored label, I would'nt care a bit. I would be more than happy to rely on the WORDS on the label telling people it was signed. And if that makes people more or less inclined to buy it. Fine.

 

Or perhaps we can put special colored labels to "distinguish" a book signed by people you don't approve of, people who didn't actually contribute to the book, or people who "get too much credit for the book." As siilly as that sounds, it echoes the same rationale used by those who hate the "desecrated" books and don't like that other people don't hate them as much as they do, so they want a label that closes that gap by widening the price gap.

[buttock]

I buy books I like at prices I feel are reasonable & can afford. If I buy a restored book it should be priced accordingly & I don't complain that it should be worth more. The only reason to complain about the price of a restored book is that you want to make money off of it.

 

I get why people buy only unrestored, I get why people buy restored. I buy what I like and am content with that.

[woowoo]

I buy books I like at prices I feel are reasonable & can afford. If I buy a restored book it should be priced accordingly & I don't complain that it should be worth more. The only reason to complain about the price of a restored book is that you want to make money off of it.

 

I get why people buy only unrestored, I get why people buy restored. I buy what I like and am content with that.

(thumbs u I dont buy books for resale. I buy just to have any shape or grade as long as i can still pay bills and eat. O maybe drink a little

[Jaydogrules]

I buy books I like at prices I feel are reasonable & can afford. If I buy a restored book it should be priced accordingly & I don't complain that it should be worth more. The only reason to complain about the price of a restored book is that you want to make money off of it.

 

I get why people buy only unrestored, I get why people buy restored. I buy what I like and am content with that.

 

+1

 

(thumbs u

 

-J.

[Cat-Man_America]

 

The conserved label, and what is included in that range, is somewhat of a head scratcher though. I do agree with the concept of conservation vs. restoration. But some of the items included, like cleaning, in my view aren't conservative measures.

 

Bill, the best way I can explain this is to use the analogy of how antiques, especially paper ephemera, are regarded in appraisal. And before folks start grousing about the fact tat comics are different, they aren't. Paper is paper. It all ages and decomposes at varying rates do to environmental conditions, acids in inks, etc.

 

Appraisers across the board give highest value to collectibles in original condition. But in some cases original condition may also include those environmental conditions. For instance, bronzes are appraised higher with a natural patina than if they're polished. OTOH, if bronze disease has damaged the casting it's value decreases and the advice is to get it treated (restored). Once restored, the value increases by some high percentage of the 100% original condition value. Left uncorrected, it declines in value.

 

In paper collectibles, the situation is different, but similar. A worn map or rare book has a value based on condition. It's uncommon that these are discovered in original condition so the values are determined by best examples. When the appraiser discusses damage with the owner, he provides advice for maximizing value based on the best condition achievable, which means after professional restoration.

 

Cleaning is an interesting area in restoration appraisals because some collectibles benefit and others don't. For instance, silver is more desirable when properly cleaned, furniture and undamaged bronze, is not. Paintings and tapestries are valued higher when professionally cleaned and repaired, paper ephemera as well. Comics are one of the areas where appraisers are left in a quandary. They have to provide caveats to their appraisals of raw comics based on the negative perception of restoration in the comic markets even though it may be needed and broadly encouraged for preserving and increasing the value of other damaged paper collectibles.

 

What CGC has done by providing a conserved grade is to bring the market closer to what the normal and reasonable antique appraisal markets recommend for paper collectibles, including posters, documents and the aforementioned maps & books.

 

IMO, this is a maturation of the hobby, or at least CGC's attempt to bring our collectibles more in line with other paper memorabilia. Whether the markets will reflect this is anyone's guess, but the Action #2 is an excellent test case.

[ciorac]

 

The conserved label, and what is included in that range, is somewhat of a head scratcher though. I do agree with the concept of conservation vs. restoration. But some of the items included, like cleaning, in my view aren't conservative measures.

 

Bill, the best way I can explain this is to use the analogy of how antiques, especially paper ephemera are regarded in appraisal. And before folks start grousing about the fact tat comics are different, they aren't. Paper is paper. It all ages and decomposes at varying rates do to environmental conditions, acids in inks, etc.

 

Appraisers across the board give highest value to collectibles in original condition. But in some cases original condition may also include those environmental conditions. For instance, bronzes are appraised higher with a natural patina than if they wet polished. OTOH, if bronze disease has damaged the bronze it decreases value and the advice is to get it treated (restored). Once restored, the value increase to some higher percentage of the 100% original condition value. Left uncorrected, it falls in value.

 

In paper collectibles, the situation is different, but similar. A worn map or book has a value based on condition. Invariable these aren't discovered in original condition so the values are determined by best examples. When the appraiser discusses damage with the owner, he provides advice for maximizing value based on the best condition achievable, which means after professional restoration.

 

What CGC has done by providing a conserved grade is to bring the market closer to what the normal and reasonable antique appraisal markets recommend for paper collectibles, including posters, documents and the aforementioned maps & books.

 

IMO, this is a maturation of the hobby, or at least CGC's attempt to bring our collectibles more in line with other paper memorabilia. Whether the markets will reflect this is anyone's guess, but the Action #2 is an excellent test case, IMO.

 

 

I think you misread my post Cat. I'm all for the conserved category. Conserving a book from continued deterioration is a good thing. I was scratching my head about some of the restorative techniques allowed for the category. Not the category itself

[Cat-Man_America]

 

The conserved label, and what is included in that range, is somewhat of a head scratcher though. I do agree with the concept of conservation vs. restoration. But some of the items included, like cleaning, in my view aren't conservative measures.

 

Bill, the best way I can explain this is to use the analogy of how antiques, especially paper ephemera, are regarded in appraisal. And before folks start grousing about the fact tat comics are different, they aren't. Paper is paper. It all ages and decomposes at varying rates do to environmental conditions, acids in inks, etc.

 

Appraisers across the board give highest value to collectibles in original condition. But in some cases original condition may also include those environmental conditions. For instance, bronzes are appraised higher with a natural patina than if they're polished. OTOH, if bronze disease has damaged the casting it's value decreases and the advice is to get it treated (restored). Once restored, the value increases by some high percentage of the 100% original condition value. Left uncorrected, it declines in value.

 

In paper collectibles, the situation is different, but similar. A worn map or rare book has a value based on condition. It's uncommon that these are discovered in original condition so the values are determined by best examples. When the appraiser discusses damage with the owner, he provides advice for maximizing value based on the best condition achievable, which means after professional restoration.

 

Cleaning is an interesting area in restoration appraisals because some collectibles benefit and others don't. For instance, silver is more desirable when properly cleaned, furniture and undamaged bronze, is not. Paintings and tapestries are valued higher when professionally cleaned and repaired, paper ephemera as well. Comics are one of the areas where appraisers are left in a quandary. They have to provide caveats to their appraisals of raw comics based on the negative perception of restoration in the comic markets even though it may be needed and broadly encouraged for preserving and increasing the value of other damaged paper collectibles.

 

What CGC has done by providing a conserved grade is to bring the market closer to what the normal and reasonable antique appraisal markets recommend for paper collectibles, including posters, documents and the aforementioned maps & books.

 

IMO, this is a maturation of the hobby, or at least CGC's attempt to bring our collectibles more in line with other paper memorabilia. Whether the markets will reflect this is anyone's guess, but the Action #2 is an excellent test case.

 

 

I think you misread my post Cat. I'm all for the conserved category. Conserving a book from continued deterioration is a good thing. I was scratching my head about some of the restorative techniques allowed for the category. Not the category itself

 

 

Ah, probably so. I did that post on the fly as we were heading off to lunch. The short version is that I not only support the Conserved grade, but I'm totally on-board with professional cover cleaning as part of the accepted criteria. I've since revised those remarks (above). Hopefully this will communicate my viewpoint and understanding of your comments in a more articulate manner.

 

 

[Mmehdy]

Comic book collecting needs to stream line all the confusion. It would create price stability rather than guess work. I believe the CGC should institute the following conversion program.

 

UNIVERSAL DARK BLUE LABEL

 

1. Create a Universal Dark Blue label with a 1-10 grading scale. Detract for pressing, conserving, repairing, patching on the point count only.

 

2. Reward the a comic book. point wise, that is in original untouched condition to discourage further resto whether detectable or not.

 

3. Institute a comic book standard paper conservation treatment...CGC approved especially on brittle page books and Trade off point subtraction.

 

4.Establish a specific cover cleaning list of preferred materials to preserve the comic book or enhance it color and trade off point subtraction.

 

5. Offer a deep discount price to trade in the label exchange rate to books already graded.

 

Ok, I know all purple label book holders are do the exchange but the new universal deep blue label is needed to create stability in our comic book world. This will in turn let market prices determine the true price of the book, not the label.

 

[Aman619]

It's not the purple label that causes the stigma. If the book has had restoration, it gets a purple label. So prima facie (is that correctly used?) it's the BOOKs condition with or without restoration that causes the stigma. A stigma that is all too real (and earned) in our hobby

 

I still see no harm is making it easy at a glance of a dealers wall books to see which books have restoration! That was CGCs intent.

 

Some of you argue that the purple labels intent was to reduce the values of the restored books. But to NOT label them clearly (and color coding is an effective classification tool for sorting and labeling) would not be "protecting" collectors effectively enough. If you recall, CGC in the early days promoted their use as the hobby's police to clean up the streets of Dodge City, fostering a more secure, and safer collecting environment compared to the Wild Wild West it had always been.

 

If they have erred to some degree, or if their solution and labeling could have been more thorough, etc, sure... All the better.

 

But the color coded labels did NOT cause the stigma that so many always complain about. We who don't care to buy restored books still ignored all wall books so marked. If you recall, the problem was always that only say half of all restored books (if that many) were ever clearly marked as such. The rest were sold as unrestored to unsuspecting buyers. After the purple label, that doesn't happen any more (unless they get cracked out and sold as is again. Etc etc)

[Mmehdy]

It's not the purple label that causes the stigma. If the book has had restoration, it gets a purple label. So prima facie (is that correctly used?) it's the BOOKs condition with or without restoration that causes the stigma. A stigma that is all too real (and earned) in our hobby

 

I still see no harm is making it easy at a glance of a dealers wall books to see which books have restoration! That was CGCs intent.

 

Some of you argue that the purple labels intent was to reduce the values of the restored books. But to NOT label them clearly (and color coding is an effective classification tool for sorting and labeling) would not be "protecting" collectors effectively enough. If you recall, CGC in the early days promoted their use as the hobby's police to clean up the streets of Dodge City, fostering a more secure, and safer collecting environment compared to the Wild Wild West it had always been.

 

If they have erred to some degree, or if their solution and labeling could have been more thorough, etc, sure... All the better.

 

But the color coded labels did NOT cause the stigma that so many always complain about. We who don't care to buy restored books still ignored all wall books so marked. If you recall, the problem was always that only say half of all restored books (if that many) were ever clearly marked as such. The rest were sold as unrestored to unsuspecting buyers. After the purple label, that doesn't happen any more (unless they get cracked out and sold as is again. Etc etc)

 

 

It is putting the comic book IN A PROPER COLOR label that is the problem. I submit a book is restored if it has been chemically treated, pressed, repaired such that the CGC cannot detect it,, spine rolled , etc. The problem is the LABEL ...the proper books are not be placed in that purple container. Eliminate it and it will be a even playing field for comic book collectors..not tricksters, cheats and spine rollers..

[MrBedrock]

This thread has an unusually high word per post ratio.

[tth2]

You must be directing your comments at another tth2. No one has been more vehemently anti-pressing than me.

 

I`ve gone from being a big buyer of comics to becoming a net seller who now buys just a few books a year, thanks to the prevalence of cracking and pressing in this hobby.

 

Well aware of your anti-pressing stance. That's why I was "gently" trying to nudge the conversation in that direction, where we have more room for agreement.

Forget it, I've been railing against pressing since 2004 or so and been absolutely pilloried for it by many of the boardies who appear to be your good buddies. In the meantime, pressing has totally and completely infected the hobby to the point it's completely irreversible.

 

So I, like many others, have voted with my feet (and wallet).

[woowoo]

This thread has an unusually high word per post ratio.

 

Ya i cant stand to read some post. I can read a goldenage book faster and have more fun

 

[Sqeggs]

This thread has an unusually high word per post ratio.

 

Yes

[G.A.tor]

This thread has an unusually high word per post ratio.

Um

[jimjum12]

This thread has an unusually high word per post ratio.

Um

 

.

 

[Sqeggs]

This thread has an unusually high word per post ratio.

Um

 

.

[woowoo]

[Gotham Kid]

This thread has an unusually high word per post ratio.

 

Word.

[Jaydogrules]

Comic book collecting needs to stream line all the confusion. It would create price stability rather than guess work. I believe the CGC should institute the following conversion program.

 

UNIVERSAL DARK BLUE LABEL

 

1. Create a Universal Dark Blue label with a 1-10 grading scale. Detract for pressing, conserving, repairing, patching on the point count only.

 

2. Reward the a comic book. point wise, that is in original untouched condition to discourage further resto whether detectable or not.

 

3. Institute a comic book standard paper conservation treatment...CGC approved especially on brittle page books and Trade off point subtraction.

 

4.Establish a specific cover cleaning list of preferred materials to preserve the comic book or enhance it color and trade off point subtraction.

 

5. Offer a deep discount price to trade in the label exchange rate to books already graded.

 

Ok, I know all purple label book holders are do the exchange but the new universal deep blue label is needed to create stability in our comic book world. This will in turn let market prices determine the true price of the book, not the label.

 

There's already a grading company that pretty much does this. Have fun submitting/selling your high end restored books there.

 

http://www.comicconnect.com/bookDetail.php?id=591812

 

They really need to do something about their labels.

 

-J.