SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING starring Tom Holland (7/28/17) 3 3

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, Jaydogrules said:

With all due respect Bosco, complaining about and excusing WW for not doing as well in some countries (or getting a limited or no release) because of the female and Israeli thing is a little like complaining about how Tyler Perry movies don't do well overseas because it has a lot of black people in it. 

Studios make the movies they want to make and the deal with the cards that they have chosen to play internationally.  Some movies and concepts just aren't as well liked or well received in some territories as others, be it for cultural reasons, or the movie just not being as well liked there as it was domestically.  Studios aren't ignorant, they know what they're dealing with going in, and if they don't, then they only have themselves to blame and should hire better market research people.   

But to speculate as to how much more Wonder Woman might have made in a few small countries if it were, basically, an entirely different movie, to me is pointless.  The fact that it made what it made domestically was precisely because of the movie that it is, and I'm sure the studio doesn't mind the very minor trade off in the end.  

And to bring this back around to Homecoming  (since this is, after all the Homecoming thread and not the Wonder Woman thread), when I say that Homecoming made its money 5 weeks faster than WW, that is 100% factually accurate- WW, $817.6MM in 15 weeks, Homecoming $824.1MM in 10 weeks (source, box office mojo). Furthermore, even if we added in your hypothetical totals to WW (which would, conveniently, put it on par with Homecoming's current totals), Homecoming still got there five weeks sooner, and will blow even further past WW by the end of this weekend, four weeks sooner.  This has nothing to do with me liking all Marvel (I don't) or being a Spider-Man fan (I am), these are just facts.   

-J.

 

YOU have been the one most worried about Wonder Woman vs. Spider-Man: Homecoming. Most of us have been enjoying both films without making it into a competition.

You also made it out like these countries that banned Wonder Woman over regional differences didn't account for much. Yet that is not the case.

How about instead of getting so fixated on DC vs. Marvel, just enjoy (or don't) these films?

 

[comic_memories]

3 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

YOU have been the one most worried about Wonder Woman vs. Spider-Man: Homecoming. Most of us have been enjoying both films without making it into a competition.

You also made it out like these countries that banned Wonder Woman over regional differences didn't account for much. Yet that is not the case.

How about instead of getting so fixated on DC vs. Marvel, just enjoy (or don't) these films?

 

To be fair to you both. People keep making comparisons.  And  I think some of it is just to poke the bear.

Edited September 16, 2017 by comic_memories

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

No.  I've been responding to the irrational posts of a few other persistent posters in here who have, bafflingly either called Homecoming everything from a "disappointment" to a "failure".  

Take off your blinders.

-J.

That's where you started. And then took it further by worrying about Spider-Man defeating Wonder Woman - including the conspiracy Forbes.com has it in for MCU movies while making it a point to talk up the DCEU. So take your own blinders off.

The numbers are the numbers - Spider-Man: Homecoming to match Wonder Woman would need to hit $962.5M based on production budget alone. Not even wasting time with guesstimating market budget differences, which can be altered by one company accounting for discounts or other product placement offsets.

Again - like what you like. No harm there. And I get the countering assumptions the film was a bust. This was not a bust. Though it didn't make me warmed up to rushing out and buying the blu-ray when it hits the market. But that's me. Others are sold on this being the best Spider-Man ever.

[Jaydogrules]

5 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

YOU have been the one most worried about Wonder Woman vs. Spider-Man: Homecoming. Most of us have been enjoying both films without making it into a competition.

You also made it out like these countries that banned Wonder Woman over regional differences didn't account for much. Yet that is not the case.

How about instead of getting so fixated on DC vs. Marvel, just enjoy (or don't) these films?

 

 I've compared Homecoming to Wonder Woman, GOTG 2 and Suicide Squad- which just so happens to be the last three major superhero movies that have been released.  

And as of now, the only one Homecoing has passed 2 of those 3, with the third within spurring distance. 

The only remaining questionfor me is whether or not Thor 3 and/or JLA will make as much as Homecoming, WW, or GOTG 2.

-J.

[Jaydogrules]

7 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

That's where you started. And then took it further by worrying about Spider-Man defeating Wonder Woman - including the conspiracy Forbes.com has it in for MCU movies while making it a point to talk up the DCEU. So take your own blinders off.

The numbers are the numbers - Spider-Man: Homecoming to match Wonder Woman would need to hit $962.5M based on production budget alone. Not even wasting time with guesstimating market budget differences, which can be altered by one company accounting for discounts or other product placement offsets.

Again - like what you like. No harm there. And I get the countering assumptions the film was a bust. This was not a bust. Though it didn't make me warmed up to rushing out and buying the blu-ray when it hits the market. But that's me. Others are sold on this being the best Spider-Man ever.

You're basing that solely on the multiplier, and that is demonstrably false.

Dollar for dollar, from a net profit-in standpoint, accounting for the $25MM difference in production budget (not really that much in the grand scheme of things) Homecoming was within  $20MM of WW, and that was using last weekend's numbers.  

And it's still going.  

-J.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[Bosco685]

2 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

 I've compared Homecoming to Wonder Woman, GOTG 2 and Suicide Squad- which just so happens to be the last three major superhero movies that have been released.  

And as of now, the only one Homecoing has passed 2 of those 3, with the third within spurring distance. 

The only remaining questionfor me is whether or not Thor 3 and/or JLA will make as much as Homecoming, WW, or GOTG 2.

-J.

It's been a strong year overall for superhero films, starting with Logan. So everyone is getting a piece of the pie this year - including Fox after a horrible X-Men sequel.

But the reality is based on regional sensitivities, studios are going to have to eat the bullet with their decisions whether they want to stick to character or story designs (Katana leading to no Suicide Squad in China), hire actors that may nor may not have impact (Gadot's Israeli heritage leading to bannings), or even moving forward with female-led films that will suffer in certain regions. That is a tough call, and even successful Marvel had to eat it with Doctor Strange and show they were not 100% loyal to historic character designs.

But meanwhile, you countering Wonder Woman suffered because it just wasn't good enough is going to have people respond with reality. No matter where you post that in this area.

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

You're basing that solely on the multiplier, and that is demonstrably false.

Dollar for dollar, from a net profit-in standpoint, accounting for the $25MM difference in production budget (not really that much in the grand scheme of things) Homecoming was within  $20MM of WW, and that was using last weekend's numbers.  

And it's still going.  

-J.

'Demonstrably false'? No, it is based on equal expense modeling-to-revenue level achieved what an equal result would need to be. You not liking it is different from presenting a false theory.

[Jaydogrules]

5 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

'Demonstrably false'? No, it is based on equal expense modeling-to-revenue level achieved what an equal result would need to be. You not liking it is different from presenting a false theory.

When you say "equal result" you're speaking in terms of proportions relative to budgets.  

I'm talking about the actual net revenues received by the studios  (estimates only, yes).  Of course WW will have a better multiplier, because it had a smaller budget.  Homecoming will gross enough to offset that $25MM difference in budget, and then some.  So while your statement may not exactly be "demonstrably false", it is rather easy to see the holes in your logic.

-J.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[comic_memories]

I'm looking forward to the final numbers.  Worldwide total and revenue ratio. That's the standard of comparison we have been using.  Keeps it simple and real

[paperheart]

and the summer superhero worldwide box office champ is SMH.  $330MM domestic & $530MM Int'l by Sunday night and another $20MM or so in the tank, it's rapidly approaching Chuck's (#math is hard) estimates of $285MM domestic (when the reported # was already $259MM) and $400MM Int'l (when the reported # was already $320MM)   the Spider's legs domestically will hit 2.9X opening weekend, putting it only behind: GOTG, IM, A-M and Avengers from the MCU.  while i agree, WW will be slightly more profitable on a theatrical release basis; SMH turned around an ugly trend since the franchise started to go off the rails creatively.  SM3 theatrical profit (pre P&A) was roughly $130MM, ASM's was roughly $92MM, ASM 2's was rougly $36MM and SMH's will be roughly $195MM. 

[comic_memories]

1 minute ago, paperheart said:

and the summer superhero worldwide box office champ is SMH.  $330MM domestic & $530MM Int'l by Sunday night and another $20MM or so in the tank, it's rapidly approaching Chuck's (#math is hard) estimates of $285MM domestic (when the reported # was already $259MM) and $400MM Int'l (when the reported # was already $320MM)   the Spider's legs domestically will hit 2.9X opening weekend, putting it only behind: GOTG, IM, A-M and Avengers from the MCU.  while i agree, WW will be slightly more profitable on a theatrical release basis; SMH turned around an ugly trend since the franchise started to go off the rails creatively.  SM3 theatrical profit (pre P&A) was roughly $130MM, ASM's was roughly $92MM, ASM 2's was rougly $36MM and SMH's will be roughly $195MM. 

[Jaydogrules]

13 minutes ago, comic_memories said:

I'm looking forward to the final numbers.  Worldwide total and revenue ratio. That's the standard of comparison we have been using.  Keeps it simple and real

Normally you would be right, but people have proclaimed simply that WW made more money (profit) than Homecoming.  That's a different statement than talking about the degree or percentage of profit relative to the budget. Because like I've pointed out, in terms of dollars and cents, that is not true (or at least it will be before it finishes its run).

-J.

[reddwarf666222]

Just now, Jaydogrules said:

When you say "equal result" you're speaking in terms of proportions relative to budgets.  

I'm talking about the actual net revenues received by the studios  (estimates only, of course).  Of course WW will have a better multiplier, because it had a smaller budget.  Homecoming will gross enough to offset that $25MM difference in budget, and then some.  So while your statement may exactly be "demonstrably false", it is rather easy to see the holes in your logic.

-J.

Jay I am not telling you Spider-Man Homecoming was not a good film. What I am saying is when all said and done the film did not beat Wonder Woman in overall profit once the final numbers are in. That Spider-Man Homecoming should have performed on a much higher level given the premarketing money spent, character's popularity, the switch over to MCEU making it a wider audience, and the high critical acclaim. All that should have led to a film that performed much better domestically than it did where a film can gain more profit than anywhere else. The fact is the film failed on that front.

This film should have made over a billion dollars worldwide yet got out performed by Wolf Warrior 2.

 

 

[reddwarf666222]

17 minutes ago, comic_memories said:

Chicken Dinner

[Bosco685]

28 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

When you say "equal result" you're speaking in terms of proportions relative to budgets.  

I'm talking about the actual net revenues received by the studios  (estimates only, yes).  Of course WW will have a better multiplier, because it had a smaller budget.  Homecoming will gross enough to offset that $25MM difference in budget, and then some.  So while your statement may not exactly be "demonstrably false", it is rather easy to see the holes in your logic.

-J.

Let's check 'the holes in my logic' when it comes to even revenue sharing impacts. We'll use a very simple analysis.

- Domestic revenue share %: 50%

- International revenue share % (non-China): 40%

- China revenue share %: 25%

Domestic revenue share analysis:

- Wonder Woman ($410,762,300) $205,381,150 revenue to WB

- Homecoming ($328,387,248) $164,193,624 revenue to Sony

International revenue share (non-China):

- Wonder Woman ($316,401,091) $126,560,436 revenue to WB

- Homecoming ($425,053,305) $170,021,322 revenue to Sony

China revenue share:

- Wonder Woman ($90,498,909) $22,624,727 revenue to WB

- Homecoming ($70,684,343) $17,671,086 revenue to Sony

Total studio revenue share:

- Wonder Woman $354,566,313 revenue to WB

- Homecoming $351,886,032 revenue to Sony

Based on current box office results, WB has taken in larger revenue due to the heavy Domestic Box Office take. But the much larger International Box Office success of Homecoming is benefiting from the much larger results in these regions, countering the impact it would take from a much lower revenue share result.

 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Bosco685

[Bosco685]

Now let's account for the production budgets.

Total studio revenue share:

- Wonder Woman $354,566,313 revenue to WB

- Homecoming $351,886,032 revenue to Sony

Minus production budget:

- Wonder Woman ($149M): $205,566,313 revenue remaining to WB.

- Homecoming ($175M): $176,886,032 revenue remaining to Sony.

That's not even accounting for the country bannings and the gender impact to large countries. A first-time origin story movie for Wonder Woman compared to THE biggest superhero worldwide.

[comic_memories]

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, comic_memories said:

[rjrjr]

3 hours ago, comic_memories said:

To be fair to you both. People keep making comparisons.  And  I think some of it is just to poke the bear.

[Jaydogrules]

3 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Now let's account for the production budgets.

Total studio revenue share:

- Wonder Woman $354,566,313 revenue to WB

- Homecoming $351,886,032 revenue to Sony

Minus production budget:

- Wonder Woman ($149M): $205,566,313 revenue remaining to WB.

- Homecoming ($175M): $176,886,032 revenue remaining to Sony.

That's not even accounting for the country bannings and the gender impact to large countries. A first-time origin story movie for Wonder Woman compared to THE biggest superhero worldwide.

You say it's about $28MM difference I said about $21MM.  At this point we are probably splitting hairs (though it's interesting, after all the back and forth that our estimates were only $7MM apart).  Even if Homecoming were to finish now (it hasn't), I would argue that Spiderman's bragging rights for a superior worldwide haul would offset what is largely a negligible amount (basically less than the difference between their two budgets, which is probably accounted for by RDJ's paycheck ).

But again, Homecoming is still going.  By the time Homecoming is done, whatever differences in final net profits will be even more menial, but Homecoming will still have those worldwide bragging rights over DC, but to an even greater extent.  And yes Spider-Man is at least one of the top two marketable heroes worldwide but this was his sixth movie in 15 years not his first.  Wonder Woman is supposed to be one of DC's top three, this was her first big screen solo film ever, she had a well received appearance in BvS, and was the beneficiary of relentless mainstream media hype and fawning.   I'm not factoring in where it wasn't released or where it supposedly "under performed" because that's just the breaks of the movie business and is not that relevant (as eloquently pointed out earlier by a boardie). Homecoming had to deal with the Chinese embargo that backlogged American releases and probably led to excessive pirating and a compressed release schedule of American films which is probably cannibalizing their box office there, but you don't see Sony complaining about that.   

-J.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Jaydogrules