New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!) 6 6

[Bronty]

On 6/22/2022 at 2:47 PM, vodou said:

Not me; $2m hammer is simply not impressive, the Egyptian Queen overhang would still remain too.

I'm surprised that there's anybody that's been in this hobby for more than 6 months that didn't throw that result out the day after it happened.

Yes...it was exciting, and amazing but...also reeked of aberration without confirmation. Confirmation requires "more of the same for the same".

It was never going to be a benchmark, or rather not without 3-5 follow-on comps (similar caliber not same artist/title/book combo) in the same region.

DKR1 was definitely a test. A test for the upmost echelon of the hobby. It failed.

It's just one test. There can/will be others, particularly if a certain Hulk cover comes to public sale in the near future. Maybe the hobby will confirm there. Maybe. But man, that number had better be a new all-time high, inclusive of Egyptian Queen, to do so.

agree with every word, esp the bolded.

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Bronty

[NinjaSealed]

Had a solo trip to the airport so I had time to listen to my first episode in quite. Love the passion Dave has. 
 

The defining line I think when analyzing the result; “that’s a whole lot of Lynn Varley.” 
Yes it’s a #1 cover to a major book, but is it the most iconic piece from DKR? Is it the best piece artistically?

I would say THE splash is and sells for more.

 

 

[Bronty]

On 6/22/2022 at 3:50 PM, NinjaSealed said:

Had a solo trip to the airport so I had time to listen to my first episode in quite. Love the passion Dave has. 
 

The defining line I think when analyzing the result; “that’s a whole lot of Lynn Varley.” 
Yes it’s a #1 cover to a major book, but is it the most iconic piece from DKR? Is it the best piece artistically?

I would say THE splash is and sells for more.

 

 

I found it disingenuous of Dave to say its the best piece Heritage has ever had, but then say "its a lotta Lynn Varley" and compare it to a color guide.   Just sounds like sour grapes.    I can't imagine he'd be saying those things if he had purchased it when it was available to him.

That being said I enjoyed the rest of the interview. 

Personally I don't think any interior page sells for as much as the 1/2 covers, but who knows.   At that level its more about the buyer's whims than much else.

[artdealer]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:18 PM, Bronty said:

I found it disingenuous of Dave to say its the best piece Heritage has ever had, but then say "its a lotta Lynn Varley" and compare it to a color guide.   Just sounds like sour grapes.    I can't imagine he'd be saying those things if he had purchased it when it was available to him.

That being said I enjoyed the rest of the interview. 

Personally I don't think any interior page sells for as much as the 1/2 covers, but who knows.   At that level its more about the buyer's whims than much else.

I don’t think it’s sour grapes on David’s part since I never offer him the DKR #1 when I sold it. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by artdealer

[delekkerste]

On 6/22/2022 at 3:50 PM, NinjaSealed said:

is it the most iconic piece from DKR?

Yes, by far, and it's not even close. People may like the #2 cover or certain splashes/interiors better, but, nothing says "Dark Knight Returns" more than the #1 cover. The same can be said of the Watchmen #1 cover - some may prefer a key interior page that actually depicts Rorschach and/or other characters, but, nothing says Watchmen like the iconic #1 cover. 

On 6/22/2022 at 3:50 PM, NinjaSealed said:

Is it the best piece artistically?

I don't think it's really a matter of artistry so much as content (i.e., what's depicted on the page), as the artistic quality is pretty even throughout the series. I'm sure opinions will vary on what peoples' single favorite piece (cover, splash, panel page) from the book is; it's very possible that no one piece would garner a majority of votes. 

[Guest Race]

On 6/22/2022 at 12:37 PM, comix4fun said:

Thanks @Nexus I learned a lot from this one. 

Dave peered into the future of comic art and left me with a striking image that I can't shake.....

 

 

?????

[NinjaSealed]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:18 PM, Bronty said:

I found it disingenuous of Dave to say its the best piece Heritage has ever had, but then say "its a lotta Lynn Varley" and compare it to a color guide.   Just sounds like sour grapes.    I can't imagine he'd be saying those things if he had purchased it when it was available to him.

Was he saying that from his point of view or speaking of heritage’s in the way they pumped it. That’s how I heard it but could be wrong.

[NinjaSealed]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:46 PM, delekkerste said:

Yes, by far, and it's not even close. People may like the #2 cover or certain splashes/interiors better, but, nothing says "Dark Knight Returns" more than the #1 cover. The same can be said of the Watchmen #1 cover - some may prefer a key interior page that actually depicts Rorschach and/or other characters, but, nothing says Watchmen like the iconic #1 cover. 

Fair enough. I have a strong biased in favor or interiors so these questions are always tough for me.

 

[Bronty]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:32 PM, artdealer said:

I don’t think it’s sour grapes on David’s part since I never offer him the DKR #1 when I sold it. 

Okay.   I don't doubt you but he made some mention in the podcast to it being available at 400 or 500k some years ago and thinking that was too much money.

If I misheard it I'm sure someone will correct me.

 

[Bronty]

On 6/22/2022 at 6:15 PM, NinjaSealed said:

Was he saying that from his point of view or speaking of heritage’s in the way they pumped it. That’s how I heard it but could be wrong.

I like Dave a lot from what I know of him and am in no position to criticize him, but I interpreted it as sour grapes.     I've done it too; who hasn't?.

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Bronty

[gumbydarnit]

While the cover’s is definitely historically significant, the cover’s artistic appeal, for me, is about a 3.5 on a scale of 10.  I think even the big spenders in the hobby felt that too.

If the cover had a nice fully rendered image that looked similar to some of the books killer slash pages, I think bidding would have been more in line with some of the lofty pre auction predictions.

For example, I believe a cover that was the quality of Benno Rothchild’s slash would have gone much higher.

( From the CAF gallery of Benno Rothchild) 

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1474613

Edited June 22, 2022 by gumbydarnit

[gumbydarnit]

If you’d like to hear how Benno picked up this fine piece, tune into this early Felix podcast:

https://www.felixcomicart.com/podcastdetail.asp?pId=10

[artdealer]

On 6/22/2022 at 6:47 PM, Bronty said:

Okay.   I don't doubt you but he made some mention in the podcast to it being available at 400 or 500k some years ago and thinking that was too much money.

If I misheard it I'm sure someone will correct me.

 

I was the only one who had access to the cover. I never offered the cover to anyone but the person who bought it.

[Nexus]

On 6/22/2022 at 2:18 PM, Bronty said:

I found it disingenuous of Dave to say its the best piece Heritage has ever had, but then say "its a lotta Lynn Varley" and compare it to a color guide.   Just sounds like sour grapes.    I can't imagine he'd be saying those things if he had purchased it when it was available to him.

That being said I enjoyed the rest of the interview. 

Personally I don't think any interior page sells for as much as the 1/2 covers, but who knows.   At that level its more about the buyer's whims than much else.

I don't recall if Dave said it's the best piece Heritage has ever had, but I might have. For me, DKR #1 is the best comic art thing HA has ever offered. Again, for me.

Also, the cover wasn't offered to him originally. As he said on the podcast, and as Mitch confirms now. But even if it had been, I'm not sure he would have gotten it. Remember, he'd already acquired the splash for (at the time) an insane number. As much as he loves DKR, I imagine there's a limit to how many pieces he'd be willing to spend insane numbers for, no matter how great. Consistent with that, DKR #2 cover was auctioned a year later, is unquestionably all-Miller, and he passed on that as well.

[Nexus]

A Forbes story on the cover, inspired by the podcast:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robsalkowitz/2022/06/21/an-iconic-batman-image-just-sold-for-24-million-who-actually-created-it

[Xatari]

I had fun with the episode and also realize there is a disconnect between many "generations" of OA collectors.  i make no bones about the fact that I love to collect first appearance art which is somewhat a logical extension of growing up in the 80's and starting with baseball cards and comic books where Rookie Cards and First Appearance issues carry significance.  I also collect characters from many eras including modern.  Entering the hobby only a few years ago means access to many desired pieces is limited as the interview reiterated.

It was interesting to me that there is a large generalization about first appearance collectors as "hype guys" or "flippers".  I am definitely not a seller of OA except on the rare occasion someone is either really after a piece, there is a fun CAF Live event, or I'm trying to fund a bigger/better, etc.  I think one or two people are really making most of the noise associating modern/first appearance collectors with resellers.  A few buzz words in the interview seemed to standout alluding to who those individuals may be, creating that heartburn for the masses.  

However, I would further argue dealers and reps are also culpable for the overpricing and hype we are experiencing.  I have seen the prices of recent art drops including new and unproven characters with asking prices in the tens of thousands, on par with many Silver Age art by some of the masters, yet I don't see a lot of discussion about this.  The blame in most discussions tends to fall on the new entrants into the market inflating the prices and pushing people out, but I see many other established pillars in the hobby profiting greatly from this and taking advantage of less educated buyers. Someone mentioned there is little punishment for rash decisions, but those prices will likely punish less educated and most likely newer collectors.  This is the Invisible Hand at work, and everyone is entitled to do what they wish with what they own. 

However, let's not play the blame game.  New collectors as easy targets both for blame and to be taken advantage of, so we need to look out for our own rather than self-cannibalize our hobby.  It is my opinion we should be welcoming and nurturing the next generation of collectors here in a healthy way.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Xatari

[Nexus]

On 6/22/2022 at 10:37 PM, Xatari said:

However, I would further argue dealers and reps are also culpable for the overpricing and hype we are experiencing.  I have seen the prices of recent art drops including new and unproven characters with asking prices in the tens of thousands, on par with many Silver Age art by some of the masters, yet I don't see a lot of discussion about this. 

Examples?

[vodou]

On 6/23/2022 at 1:37 AM, Xatari said:

I had fun with the episode and also realize there is a disconnect between many "generations" of OA collectors.  i make no bones about the fact that I love to collect first appearance art which is somewhat a logical extension of growing up in the 80's and starting with baseball cards and comic books where Rookie Cards and First Appearance issues carry significance.  I also collect characters from many eras including modern.  Entering the hobby only a few years ago means access to many desired pieces is limited as the interview reiterated.

It was interesting to me that there is a large generalization about first appearance collectors as "hype guys" or "flippers".  I am definitely not a seller of OA except on the rare occasion someone is either really after a piece, there is a fun CAF Live event, or I'm trying to fund a bigger/better, etc.  I think one or two people are really making most of the noise associating modern/first appearance collectors with resellers.  A few buzz words in the interview seemed to standout alluding to who those individuals may be, creating that heartburn for the masses.  

However, I would further argue dealers and reps…

1. Thou doth protested too much. Let it go, your actions over time will be enough, for better or worse.

2. Jordan Joanou. https://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=32809p

[Sean I]

I really enjoyed the episode.  I share a similar perspective on the 1st appearance market seeming artificial looking in from the outside.  I’m sure there are some people generally excited by that category of collecting and just like any pump and dump those are the people who are at risk of getting caught up and left holding the bag by those exploiting that enthusiasm.

I’m not fond of anyone flipping intentionally for quick profits.  I understand the justifications that have been made to generate funds for personal collecting, but it still doesn’t sit well with me.  A fool and his money are soon parted and everything, but that doesn’t make it honorable to exploit the fool.

These feelings are mostly selfish, admittedly, as the practices push prices higher and more and more things out of my own modest reach.  As for reps, I cut them the most slack as at least the artists, are benefitting, the ones most deserving.  It especially gets my goat to see individuals or dealers picking up pieces from an artists table or website as a direct sale and then immediately marking it up 50%-200% for a flip.

[gumbydarnit]

On 6/23/2022 at 7:45 AM, Sean- said:

I’m not fond of anyone flipping intentionally for quick profits.

Agreed. I also like to avoid those collectors even when I would benefit from dealing with them. I like comic art to be a hobby for me... and dealing with them makes it more like a business.

The grail today for sale tomorrow guys are who I really like to avoid!