New podcast/video from Felix Comic Art (UPDATED 1/3/17!) 6 6

[Nexus]

At San Diego Comic-Con 2017, we managed to secure a chat with the most influential figure in our hobby: Jim Halperin of Heritage Auctions.

At San Diego Comic-Con 2022...he returns.

And he saved a blockbuster scoop just for the occasion.

We follow up our talk with Jim with a round table breaking it all down. Joining me are veteran panelists Andy Robbins and Yo Kuri:

The Felix Comic Art Podcast (Episode 51): Jim Halperin, Part 2

It's two straight hours of pure comic art conversations. Like you'll get nowhere else. Enjoy!

Felix

www.felixcomicart.com

[gumbydarnit]

WOW.. the Barbra Walters of comic art interviewing does it again! A very enjoyable listen. I appreciate that Jim will sit down with you and field some non soft ball questions. I have to say it's good to get a little peak behind the curtain at the Heritage. As always it's a treat to hear from you and your buds as well. Andy and Yo offer up very interesting takes on our hobby. Thanks!!!! 

Edited August 10, 2022 by gumbydarnit

[Ares]

On 8/10/2022 at 10:32 AM, gumbydarnit said:

WOW.. the Barbra Walters of comic art interviewing does it again! A very enjoyable listen. I appreciate that Jim will sit down with you and field some non soft ball questions. I have to say it's good to get a little peak behind the curtain at the Heritage. As always it's a treat to hear from you and your buds as well. Andy and Yo offer up very interesting takes on our hobby. Thanks!!!! 

I just finished the Halperin portion the the podcast. Pretty interesting. 

 

[John E.]

Glad to get another Jim Halperin interview. I found him open and honest when confidentiality wasn’t involved. Always interesting to hear dispatches from that side of the hobby. Love hearing that comic art is more of a collector’s hobby, not a speculator’s.

[J.Sid]

The "Conspiracy Theorist / Devil's Advocate" in me has quite a few follow-up questions, but hey, at least some uncomfortable topics were broached.

 

[Nexus]

On 8/10/2022 at 7:36 PM, J.Sid said:

The "Conspiracy Theorist / Devil's Advocate" in me has quite a few follow-up questions, but hey, at least some uncomfortable topics were broached.

 

Post your follow-up questions. I'll bring them up next time. Invite everyone else to do the same if they wish!

[delekkerste]

The Jim Halperin/Andy Robbins/Yo Kuri podcast was a lot of fun!

Since it came up again, I just wanted to correct what "accelerating price discovery" does and doesn't mean. 

It is *only* applicable in instances where one has a fixed budget that may not be enough to win two or more pieces (preferably where the outcome of one or more of those pieces has a potentially wide variance). Then, and only in that specific situation, it may be favorable for a bidder to try and accelerate the price discovery process (by bidding early and often and trying to engage others to do the same) so as to determine whether you need to drop out of bidding on one of the two pieces (or, alternatively, whether you need to increase your budget).

BUT...

If you are very sure of how much the pieces you are bidding on are worth...it almost never behooves you to do this.

If you are focused on a certain piece and there is no "either/or" trade-off situation...it almost never behooves you to do this.

If you are the presumptive favorite to win a piece and have a huge budget...it almost never behooves you to do this.

So, if you are a whale in this hobby...it almost never behooves you to do this. If you are going for a Grail piece, it almost never behooves you to do this.

Edited August 17, 2022 by delekkerste

[vodou]

On 8/17/2022 at 9:33 AM, delekkerste said:

…it almost never behooves you to do this.

Unless you’re an “employee” 

[KirbyCollector]

On 8/17/2022 at 4:18 PM, vodou said:

Unless you’re an “employee” 

I've thought about this quite a bit... Jim has the ability to see the meta data HA collects every day on every auction... he can see who every bidder is, how many times that bidder views the auction, how many non-bidders are viewing or tracking the auction, etc. All of this is a gigantic advantage over the rest of us, because it is real, actionable data which allows one to predict bidding behavior and pricing.

Jim seems like a nice guy, but his involvement in his own auctions just feels corrupt to me.

[vodou]

On 8/17/2022 at 4:51 PM, KirbyCollector said:

Jim seems like a nice guy, but ...

For sure, this guy too:

[Nexus]

On 6/23/2022 at 11:25 PM, Xatari said:

I guess I don’t see dealers and collectors as mutually exclusive. You, yourself are both. There is no judgment in that. 

I missed this one earlier. I am a rep, not a dealer. Yes, there are dealers who are also reps. But I'm just a rep.

Otherwise, yes, not mutually exclusive. Most of the dealers I know are also collectors. I was referring to the ones who don't admit they're dealers.

This may not be you, but most collectors I know will engage with other collectors differently than they would with dealers. So the stealth dealers would prefer to preserve their phony amateur status.

You're still relatively new, so likely everyone who is in the hobby is all the same to you. That's OK; enjoy this time of innocence while it lasts.

 

[Xatari]

Yes, I get it.  I am still new.  That said, I have had hundreds of transactions in the last 3 years.  I have dealt with good and bad dealers, reps, and collectors.  I don't discriminate between any aside from the quality of person with whom I am engaging.  This is certainly an individual experience.  In that regard, I don't deal with collectors differently than dealers.  I work to treat everyone the same and have become friends with reps, dealers, and collectors alike through the process. There are reps I text on a regular basis about things that have little to do with art, because I care more about people than position.

Sure, some people will be condescending a forum thread (I have had plenty of this over the past few years), in email, on podcasts/social media, in private, etc.  I just decide not to do business with them in the future.  I don't believe I have come across more than a handful of individuals in this hobby who don't both buy and sell to some degree, so it seems semantics and arbitrary based on who is defining it.  I'd rather choose to believe the best in others and be cautiously optimistic.  "Wise as serpents and innocent as doves."  It doesn't bother me if someone chooses to sell something they own regardless of their position in the hobby.  That's my own take, but it has served me well thus far and hope it continues for a long while to come.

[Nexus]

Let there be no mistake: At some point, EVERYONE sells in this hobby. This isn't a binary proposition, that collectors either sell or don't sell. Whatever issue you may be inferring, it has nothing to do with collectors selling their art. Because we will all sell. It's just a matter of how much and when.

The manner in which art is sold, though? That will vary. On the plus side, there's less of the obvious snakey behavior that used to be more prevalent. But at the same time, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. There are great people in the hobby. There are not-so-great people in the hobby. Like everything else in life.

 

[DeadpoolJr.]

Jim mentioned that when looking at pieces he's interested in he runs them by different people on their opinions to see what they might go for and that any client of heritage can do this for an auction piece with it not being unique to him. That's interesting because I realized that it seems to be a unique practice to Heritage where they are willing to tell you their internal estimates of lots you're interested in while I remember asking Clink about that for a piece before and they told me they don't do that because they believe it can affect the auction price. To me that doesn't make sense since it just means I probably won't be bidding on that piece since I don't know I'll need to budget for or what I might be willing to sell to fund to go after it.

[Bronty]

On 8/24/2022 at 7:44 PM, DeadpoolJr. said:

Jim mentioned that when looking at pieces he's interested in he runs them by different people on their opinions to see what they might go for and that any client of heritage can do this for an auction piece with it not being unique to him. That's interesting because I realized that it seems to be a unique practice to Heritage where they are willing to tell you their internal estimates of lots you're interested in while I remember asking Clink about that for a piece before and they told me they don't do that because they believe it can affect the auction price. To me that doesn't make sense since it just means I probably won't be bidding on that piece since I don't know I'll need to budget for or what I might be willing to sell to fund to go after it.

Lots of auction houses even publish pre-sale estimates, so I don't see anything wrong with that practice.    But I think the estimates generally don't affect price, from what I've seen.    More often, the issue is that the estimates were just wrong if they weren't met or conversely if they were way exceeded.    I.e. people tend to pay what they want to pay and 'listen' to the estimate IMO.     

Edited August 25, 2022 by Bronty

[New School Fool]

On 6/23/2022 at 6:37 AM, Xatari said:

I had fun with the episode and also realize there is a disconnect between many "generations" of OA collectors.  i make no bones about the fact that I love to collect first appearance art which is somewhat a logical extension of growing up in the 80's and starting with baseball cards and comic books where Rookie Cards and First Appearance issues carry significance.  I also collect characters from many eras including modern.  Entering the hobby only a few years ago means access to many desired pieces is limited as the interview reiterated.

It was interesting to me that there is a large generalization about first appearance collectors as "hype guys" or "flippers".  I am definitely not a seller of OA except on the rare occasion someone is either really after a piece, there is a fun CAF Live event, or I'm trying to fund a bigger/better, etc.  I think one or two people are really making most of the noise associating modern/first appearance collectors with resellers.  A few buzz words in the interview seemed to standout alluding to who those individuals may be, creating that heartburn for the masses.  

However, I would further argue dealers and reps are also culpable for the overpricing and hype we are experiencing.  I have seen the prices of recent art drops including new and unproven characters with asking prices in the tens of thousands, on par with many Silver Age art by some of the masters, yet I don't see a lot of discussion about this.  The blame in most discussions tends to fall on the new entrants into the market inflating the prices and pushing people out, but I see many other established pillars in the hobby profiting greatly from this and taking advantage of less educated buyers. Someone mentioned there is little punishment for rash decisions, but those prices will likely punish less educated and most likely newer collectors.  This is the Invisible Hand at work, and everyone is entitled to do what they wish with what they own. 

However, let's not play the blame game.  New collectors as easy targets both for blame and to be taken advantage of, so we need to look out for our own rather than self-cannibalize our hobby.  It is my opinion we should be welcoming and nurturing the next generation of collectors here in a healthy way.

I thought I'd chime in on this, albeit very late as I have recently had an experience which echoes what @Xatari mentioned above. 

I also agree that @Nexus is somewhat responsible for the rise in prices. I was shocked at the drop prices of those Titan pages and they caused quite a stir in the channels I frequent. I was quite surprised that nothing was mentioned here until now. I actually have a friend who is a rep and we talked about Felix prices before I saw this post. They mentioned the same anecdotes: 'If you don't like it, don't buy it' and 'it's good for the artist' etc. And that's true. I asked why do I feel so bitter about it if that's so? They mentioned it's the sting of being priced out. 

 

That, I don't completely agree with. I think it's more the fact that I don't think the art is worth the asking price and buyers are probably getting ripped off. Now, don't get me wrong, I have great respect for Felix and what he's done for the hobby. My first piece of OA was through Felix. and I've managed to pick up a few through him. There was one transaction though that left me feeling that I bought into the hype and wasn't worth the price I paid (but hey-ho), and then, as some others have mentioned, things seemed to have escalated from there.

 

Felix isn't the only one though. Earlier this year I paid for a piece by a repped artist that is relatively new to the industry. I doubt anyone here as any pieces by them. I paid, what I felt was, slightly more than the piece was worth. The artwork was too good to let go so I swallowed the cost. Less than a year later, I enquired about a piece by the same artist that is arguably not as good as the one I bought previously. prices for this artist have now more than doubled than what they were 10 months ago. I would understand if the piece was groundbreaking, but unfortunately it wasn't. The artist's work was also initially priced fairly high...I can't help feel that the rep is being manipulative. I've dealt with artists increasing their prices in the past but +120% in less than a year is just crazy.....and this is for a relatively new artist!

Edited September 1, 2022 by New School Fool

[Nexus]

On 9/1/2022 at 4:43 PM, New School Fool said:

I thought I'd chime in on this, albeit very late as I have recently had an experience which echoes what @Xatari mentioned above. 

I also agree that @Nexus is somewhat responsible for the rise in prices. I was shocked at the drop prices of those Titan pages and they caused quite a stir in the channels I frequent. I was quite surprised that nothing was mentioned here until now.

Somewhat responsible? I'm OK with wholly responsible. Because the rise in prices for modern art comes from building the market for modern art. Which comes from identifying and promoting the key artists of the current era, the ones who will have the best chance to stand the test of time. All comic art started off as modern art; If Felix Comic Art was around 40 years ago, I would have sought to rep Frank Miller, Steve Rude, Michael Golden, Walter Simonson, Howard Chaykin, Jaime Hernandez, Dave Stevens, David Mazzucchelli, Brian Bolland, George Perez, Matt Wagner...those were the young guys who got me excited back then (there were others, these are just the ones that jump to mind). The artists I'm repping today are the ones who are getting me excited now. As with that '80s group, not everyone will be a legend 40 years from now. But if comics are still a thing in 40 years, I'd bet they all have a better than average shot.

I'm not surprised there was sticker shock at the Titan pages. I priced them as high as I reasonably could. Why? Because I knew there would be a clamor for them by first appearance collectors. That anyone might be grousing about the pricing is because there's seemingly no meat left on the bone for "investment". The irony here is that one of the critics of Titan in this thread had asked me for time payments before the drop. If the prices were to his liking, and he was able to get a page, I have no doubt he would instead be touting Titan as the next big thing. As it is, almost all the pages have sold. I'm confident that the remaining few will eventually get picked up, too.

As I said before, the artist has only one chance to sell the art. With how nutty things have gotten, I actually told Ryan that he should just hold onto this issue and wait to see what happened. It's no skin off my nose to skip the immediate sale now, because as is stands, I'd get to share in the potential upside down the road anyway. But the the inker, Cliff, preferred to sell now. So we did.

On 9/1/2022 at 4:43 PM, New School Fool said:

I actually have a friend who is a rep and we talked about Felix prices before I saw this post. They mentioned the same anecdotes: 'If you don't like it, don't buy it' and 'it's good for the artist' etc. And that's true. I asked why do I feel so bitter about it if that's so? They mentioned it's the sting of being priced out.

I think I know who your rep friend is, and if I'm right, he's been very open that he's hoping to replicate my model for his particular niche. (I appreciate his honesty and I wish him the best.)

On 9/1/2022 at 4:43 PM, New School Fool said:

That, I don't completely agree with. I think it's more the fact that I don't think the art is worth the asking price and buyers are probably getting ripped off. Now, don't get me wrong, I have great respect for Felix and what he's done for the hobby. My first piece of OA was through Felix. and I've managed to pick up a few through him. There was one transaction though that left me feeling that I bought into the hype and wasn't worth the price I paid (but hey-ho), and then, as some others have mentioned, things seemed to have escalated from there.

If you don't think the art is worth the asking price...then don't buy it. Quite simple. How is anyone getting "ripped off"?

On 9/1/2022 at 4:43 PM, New School Fool said:

Felix isn't the only one though. Earlier this year I paid for a piece by a repped artist that is relatively new to the industry. I doubt anyone here as any pieces by them. I paid, what I felt was, slightly more than the piece was worth. The artwork was too good to let go so I swallowed the cost. Less than a year later, I enquired about a piece by the same artist that is arguably not as good as the one I bought previously. prices for this artist have now more than doubled than what they were 10 months ago. I would understand if the piece was groundbreaking, but unfortunately it wasn't. The artist's work was also initially priced fairly high...I can't help feel that the rep is being manipulative. I've dealt with artists increasing their prices in the past but +120% in less than a year is just crazy.....and this is for a relatively new artist!

By now, it's fairly evident that other reps are copying what I've done, to whatever extent they can. The honest ones, like your friend, will admit it. But that's really just the superficial stuff. In the end, it all comes down to the artists. And it will be up to collectors to know the difference between a James Harren, and a James Harren clone. Until then, of course that rep will continue to push prices. Eventually, I do believe the market will sort things out. As collectors (and yes, I'll also include myself in that group), we decide. Not the rep.

[New School Fool]

Well @Nexus - I can't argue against your counter arguments, because you do have strong points that I agree with. Please don't take my previous post as a complaint but more of an observation. I do continue to have the utmost respect for you (though no-one is above criticism ;) )

I came to realize your pricing model was implemented to counteract the secondary market. To your credit, it's a smart and deserving move that puts the money with the artist. I do think collectors that don't immediately sell/flip get a raw deal though....Maybe this will encourage us all to become long term holders?

On 9/2/2022 at 4:42 AM, Nexus said:

If you don't think the art is worth the asking price...then don't buy it. Quite simple. How is anyone getting "ripped off"?

I've seen high priced art that I cannot afford, yet I feel the price is justified. The artist is outstanding and the art is amazing. This is why I don't think I'm grumpy about being 'priced out'. Of course this hypothetical piece is going to command high prices, it makes sense.

When I say 'ripped off'  - to me there's disconnect as to why a piece is priced so high and I'm left scratching my chin. For the Titan pages, this may be down to the fact that I'm not the biggest Ottley fan, and to see a page by him priced comparability to others I feel are better artists leaves me bewildered. Same with the 120% marked up artist I mentioned in my previous post.

But yes, 'Don't Like it Don't Buy it' is the number one rule to collect by. It's funny as I always recount the same to other collector friends with a smirk on my face. I would go further to say it's not reps or collectors that set prices but rather green collectors with deep pockets perhaps?

 

 

 

 

[cloud cloddie]

On 9/2/2022 at 4:07 AM, New School Fool said:

 I do think collectors that don't immediately sell/flip get a raw deal though....Maybe this will encourage us all to become long term holders?

 

The main reason modern prices are high is because of sellers/flippers. How many times is an artist supposed to watch pages resell shortly after for 2-3 times the price? I’ve never dealt with @Nexus and I probably won’t, because I think the modern prices are nuts. But he’s doing a baller job with his artists, so props to him. I’ve read countless stories on this board about collectors ‘overpaying’ for pieces 20, 30, 40 years back, but they loved the piece. And a lot of those same people have an awesome retirement plan for buying what they loved.
I understand a lot of your previous arguments, and with the money going into this ‘hobby’, it’s impossible not to consider what you’re buying as investments. But OA isn’t crypto, and if you’re looking at OA as investment, it should be long term, not short. I know I cherry picked your quote, but bemoaning reps and artists for not leaving meat to accommodate immediate resellers is naive. 

[New School Fool]

On 9/2/2022 at 6:33 PM, cloud cloddie said:

I know I cherry picked your quote, but bemoaning reps and artists for not leaving meat to accommodate immediate resellers is naive. 

Lol! That's not actually what I was doing/saying. You've totally misunderstood me dude, I'm definitely not here fighting my corner for flippers. 

Just to clarify, what I am bemoaning is the trend of modern artists work selling for the same amount as established great artists in the industry.

The Titan pages for example, selling for an amount that should net you a McFarlane page. Fair enough it was a birth page, but still. (I will stop using this example though, as all the power to Felix and Ottley for their sale).

...And the other rep, clearly following Felix's example quoted a price for their new artist that was comparable to a good Dell'otto page.

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by New School Fool