STAR WARS : Episode VIII December 15, 2017 4 4

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

4 hours ago, Guardian Comics said:

I haven't posted here since all my comics were stolen from my home and then my shop four days later in late September, but after seeing this disaster this evening, this is the first place I came running.

Like many here, SW was my childhood and the prequels did not live up to 16 years of expectations but at least I can look at them fondly.  Palme was a memorable character, Qui Gonn and Darth Maul were memorable characters.  The movies still had a little bit of heart, and were still Star Wars, there was no mistaking that.  Whatever I just finished watching was not that.  I know Luke and Leia like my brother and sister, but these were not my family.  The story was slooowww, and not very good at all.  There is no heart left at all.

And for those people who say that no movies can ever live up to what you hold so dear from ones childhood, I beg to differ.  To me the OT trilogy was everything, but when Winter Soldier, Avengers 2 And Civil War came out, they became my adulthood holy trilogy that if someone asked me which three movies I’m taking on a deserted island, I’m still not sure which I would choose.

There is only one Cinematic War that matters anymore...and it’s of the Infinity not the Star.

It is with heavy heart that I write that last sentence.

 

Jim

Hey Jim....I haven't been on here much at all either....so very sorry about the comics, I hadn't heard about this...is there a thread or list available detailing what was taken so we can keep an eye out?

I share many of your same sentiments...this movie was so....confusing...for me.  Let me try to formulate some thoughts, with spoilers ahead:

Spoiler

 

The Good:

- I genuinely enjoyed the Rey/Luke interaction in the first half of the movie.  I thought it was decently-written, and well acted.  If they had just made the movie about that, it would have worked better I believe.

- The special effects were top-notch, as one would expect.

- The throne room fight with Rey+Ren vs. the Praetorian Guard was pretty cool.

- The scene with Yoda was great...loved it.

- In general, I really like Daisy Ridley as an actor and as the main protagonist.  I find her strength, compassion, and vulnerability very believable.  Much like Felicity Jones' Jyn Erso, I like the fact the new movies have smart, resourceful female leads...if only all the male characters around them weren't so dumb or hollow.

The Bad:

- Pretty much everything else.  The Finn/Rose storyline was a complete distraction and maybe the most nonsensical tangent in Star Wars movie history.  I didn't see the point at all.

- The whole set-up and indeed premise for the film, which one reviewer accurately called the most boring high speed chase in history, was also non-sensical.  So, these massive star destroyers, after thousands of years of development, suffer from 2 unfathomable flaws: A single Resistance "Bomber" can destroy a ship hundreds of times it's size with a single payload (and I'm still not sure how bombs "fall"' in the vacuum of space), and despite their ability to jump into hyperspace, are basically useless when pursuing  a faster ship for what...18+ hours according to the movie?  No one thought to go to hyperspeed and jump into a neighboring system, then jump right back ahead of the Resistance ships?  And I guess the Dreadnought ships really don't "fear anything", but a single small bomber that can wipe them out entirely.  Really?  Really!?!  Rian Johnson should be flogged for basing his entire movie around such horrendous leaps in logic.

- So, the Resistance is left with enough people to evacuate on a small cargo freighter, and yet they are the "spark that will light the fire to take down the First Order".  Um....no...they got their asses handed to them.  The rebels at the end of ESB at least still had some capital ships left, despite their losses, to continue the fight into ROTJ.  The Resistance is gone, and leaving them in such sorry shape, and how they reconstitute themselves heading into Episode iX will be JJ Abrams problem to deal with.

- I thought the editing was really off...for instance...between the time when the first of the Resistance transports were being destroyed as they were getting away (how the First Order fleet had no way to detect them is beyond me) and when Laura Dern's character went on her suicide run, 15 minutes of real time had elapsed.  The net effect on the viewer was that made it seem like she was indecisive and less as she watched a dozen or more transports get destroyed before she did anything.  Why not go on your suicide run right after you launch?  If you take out the command ship, there is a good chance the First Order would stop its pursuit to regroup so that all of your transports would stand a chance of getting away.  There were other issues with the editing as well...like the constant flip-flopping of the multiple storylines at seemingly random intervals.

-Benicio Del Toro's (who I love as an actor) character DJ.  So, this guy is sitting in a cell, with the ability to leave at any time...for what purpose again?  Did he strike his deal with the Empire before he was incarcerated?  Did he strike his deal after?  Why was he wearing the uniform of a First Order officer when he left?  None of this made sense to me...according to the movie's visual Dictionary: “DJ” also has a storied past with the Canto Bight police department, and arranges his own arrest for a petty crime — if only so he can get some sleep in a jail cell, free from harassment by authorities.  Okay, so I must've missed that part, but the rest of his inclusion in the story just seemed really pointless, and his stutters and ticks were annoying.  Del Toro tends to mumble his lines and doesn't enunciate well to begin with, why would you have the guy throw a stutter in there as well?

- Poor Captain Phasma.  The best looking, and least utilized, character in Star Wars movie history...perhaps on par only with the Emperor's Imperial Guard.  Why did you even hire Gwendoline Christie for the role, if you were only going to show her eye in one brief cut?  You could've hired a stuntman to do the same thing, and it probably would've been cheaper.  

- Snoke.  The most powerful entity in the universe.  A force User with unlimited power.  A devious mind capable of rebuilding the shattered Empire into the First Order and reconquering the galaxy.  A dumb-@ss who didn't see his own death coming.  :Groan:  Sorry fanboys, years of fan theory as to who he really was down the drain, because it never really was that important....seemingly just like everything else in this iteration of the Star Wars universe (Yoda burns the Journal of the Whills...what?) 

- What about all the other unanswered plot points from the Force Awakens?   For instance, Who and Where are the Knights of Ren?  Apparently, they weren't the ones who slaughtered Luke's trainees, even though that's what we were lead to believe watching the first movie.  Such an integral flash-back to Rey in the Force Awakens, and yet it was completely removed in any meaningful way from this movie....say what you want about Lucas, but having one man and one singular vision for the story line kept things consistent....one writer/director didn't get to pick and choose what he liked from what has come before him to write his own version of the story.

- Force Projection Luke.  I'm still ambivalent about how this all played out...some elements of the final battle were amusing...but it was mostly cringe-worthy.  Bye Luke.  Sorry you didn't quite get the send-off you deserved.

- I could go on...but I won't.  Since the franchise rebooted, the only SW movie I truly enjoyed was Rogue One, and heck, that one was beset with reshoots and storyline problems....it still worked out better then the two main movies.   I honestly went into this with very low expectations...and Rian Johnson was kind enough to meet them.  Unfortunate.

- I haven't seen the Force Awakens since the first two times I saw it in the theatre, and while I enjoyed it more the second time, I still felt it was a weak addition to the SW pantheon.  I doubt I'll even see this one again, willingly anyway...I'm just too "meh" about it right now.   I did order a Rogue One blu-ray, so that I can watch that and a New Hope back-to-back with my 8-year old daughter this Christmas.  

 

 

So, that's it.  I'm still optimistic that they'll get another main Star Wars movie right.  Maybe they should employ the writing team from the Clone Wars and Rebels, who actually craft excellent story lines and keep everything well grounded in Star Wars lore, to write a proper Star Wars movie.  One can only hope.

Edited December 16, 2017 by JiveTurkeyMoFo

[bane]

16 minutes ago, JiveTurkeyMoFo said:

Hey Jim....I haven't been on here much at all either....so very sorry about the comics, I hadn't heard about this...is there a thread or list available detailing what was taken so we can keep an eye out?

I share many of your same sentiments...this movie was so....confusing...for me.  Let me try to formulate some thoughts, with spoilers ahead:

  Hide contents

 

The Good:

- I genuinely enjoyed the Rey/Luke interaction in the first half of the movie.  I thought it was decently-written, and well acted.  If they had just made the movie about that, it would have worked better I believe.

- The special effects were top-notch, as one would expect.

- The throne room fight with Rey+Ren vs. the Praetorian Guard was pretty cool.

- The scene with Yoda was great...loved it.

- In general, I really like Daisy Ridley as an actor and as the main protagonist.  I find her strength, compassion, and vulnerability very believable.  Much like Felicity Jones' Jyn Erso, I like the fact the new movies have smart, resourceful female leads...if only all the male characters around them weren't so dumb or hollow.

The Bad:

- Pretty much everything else.  The Finn/Rose storyline was a complete distraction and maybe the most nonsensical tangent in Star Wars movie history.  I didn't see the point at all.

- The whole set-up and indeed premise for the film, which one reviewer accurately called the most boring high speed chase in history, was also non-sensical.  So, these massive star destroyers, after thousands of years of development, suffer from 2 unfathomable flaws: A single Resistance "Bomber" can destroy a ship hundreds of times it's size with a single payload (and I'm still not sure how bombs "fall"' in the vacuum of space), and despite their ability to jump into hyperspace, are basically useless when pursuing  a faster ship for what...18+ hours according to the movie?  No one thought to go to hyperspeed and jump into a neighboring system, then jump right back ahead of the Resistance ships?  And I guess the Dreadnought ships really don't fear anything, but a single small bomber that can wipe them out entirely.  Really?  Really!?!  Rian Johnson should be flogged for basing his entire movie around such horrendous leaps in logic.

- So, the Resistance is left with enough people to evacuate on a small cargo freighter, and yet they are the "spark that will light the fire to take down the First Order".  Um....no...they got their asses handed to them.  The rebels at the end of ESB at least still had some capital ships left, despite their losses, to continue the fight into ROTJ.  The Resistance is gone, and leaving them in such sorry shape, and how they reconstitute themselves heading into Episode iX will be JJ Abrams problem to deal with.

- I thought the editing was really off...for instance...between the time when the first of the Resistance transports were being destroyed as they were getting away (how the First Order fleet had no way to detect them is beyond me) and when Laura Dern's character went on her suicide run, 15 minutes of movie time had elapsed.  The net effect on the viewer was that made it seem like she was indecisive and less as she watched a dozen or more transports get destroyed before she did anything.  Why not go on your suicide run right after you launch?  If you take out the command ship, there is a good chance the First Order would stop its pursuit to regroup so that all of your transports would stand a chance of getting away.  There were other issues with the editing as well...like the constant flip-flopping of the multiple storylines at seemingly random intervals.

-Benicio Del Toro's (who I love as an actor) character DJ.  So, this guy is sitting in a cell, with the ability to leave at any time...for what purpose again?  Did he strike his deal with the Empire before he was incarcerated?  Did he strike his deal after?  Why was he wearing the uniform of a First Order officer when he left?  None of this made sense to me...according to the movie's visual Dictionary: “DJ” also has a storied past with the Canto Bight police department, and arranges his own arrest for a petty crime — if only so he can get some sleep in a jail cell, free from harassment by authorities.  Okay, so I must've missed that part, but the rest of his inclusion in the story just seemed really pointless, and his stutters and ticks were annoying.  Del Toro tends to mumble his lines and doesn't enunciate well to begin with, why would you have the guy throw a stutter in there as well?

- Poor Captain Phasma.  The best looking, and least utilized, character in Star Wars movie history...perhaps on par only with the Emperor's Imperial Guard.  Why did you even hire Gwendoline Christie for the role, if you were only going to show her eye in one brief cut?  You could've hired a stuntman to do the same thing, and it probably would've been cheaper.  

- Snoke.  The most powerful entity in the universe.  A force User with unlimited power.  A devious mind capable of rebuilding the shattered Empire into the First Order and reconquering the galaxy.  A insufficiently_thoughtful_person who didn't see his own death coming.  :Groan:  Sorry fanboys, years of fan theory as to who he really was down the drain, because it never really was that important....seemingly just like everything else in this iteration of the Star Wars universe (Yoda burns the Journal of the Whills...what?)  What about all the other unanswered plot points from the Force Awakens? 

- Who and where are the Knights of Ren?  Apparently, they weren't the ones who slaughtered Luke's trainees, even though that's what we were lead to believe watching the first movie.  Such an integral flash-back to Rey in the Force Awakens, and yet it was completely removed in any meaningful way from this movie....say what you want about Lucas, but having one man and one singular vision for the story line kept things consistent....one writer/director didn't get to pick and choose what he liked from what has come before him to write his own version of the story.

- Force Projection Luke.  I'm still ambivalent about how this all played out...some elements of the final battle were amusing...but it was mostly cringe-worthy.  Bye Luke.  Sorry you didn't quite get the send-off you deserved.

- I could go on...but I won't.  Since the franchise rebooted, the only SW movie I truly enjoyed was Rogue One, and heck, that one was beset with reshoots and storyline problems....it still worked out better then the two main movies.   I honestly went into this with very low expectations...and Rian Johnson was kind enough to meet them.  Unfortunate.

- I haven't seen the Force Awakens since the first two times I saw it in the theatre, and while I enjoyed it more the second time, I still felt it was a weak addition to the SW pantheon.  I doubt I'll even see this one again, willingly anyway...I'm just too "meh" about it right now.   I did order a Rogue One blu-ray, so that I can watch that and a New Hope back-to-back with my 8-year old daughter this Christmas.  

 

 

So, that's it.  I'm still optimistic that they'll get another main Star Wars movie right.  Maybe they should employ the writing team from the Clone Wars and Rebels, who actually craft excellent story lines and keep everything well grounded in Star Wars lore, to write a proper Star Wars movie.  One can only hope.

I was going to write an in depth review but you just covered my feelings perfectly.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

11 minutes ago, bane said:

I was going to write an in depth review but you just covered my feelings perfectly.

I feel both a "thanks" and an "I'm sorry" is appropriate here.  

[jsilverjanet]

I think people rate the original movies a bit too high because of nostalgia and they are bit too tough of the new movies as a result. 

The revelation that is interesting to me how fans/moviegoers feel about the movie compared to the critics/rotten tomatoes

who would have thought that it could happen like that 

 

[Bosco685]

Holy!

Angry Star Wars Fans Storm Theater Lobby Over 'The Last Jedi' Sound Problems

 

Quote

As integral to any narrative, character or visual effect, the sounds of Star Wars are unique and recognizable, with the film's opening title giving goosebumps to anyone who hears it. Unfortunately, one group of fans at a theater in Burbank, California were denied that experience when a malfunction prevented the sound from playing for the first 20 minutes, resulting in fans storming the lobby with such ferocity that the police had to be called to maintain the peace.

 

With the event unfolding on opening night, this specific screening was much more heavily-anticipated than an average screening, leading to the passionate anger about the situation from fans.

 

As the fans hurled obscenities and insults at theater staff, guests were offered a full refund for the incident.

 

Due to the popularity of the film, not everyone had the luxury of merely checking out another screening and demanded that the film be started over.

Now if THIS had happened at my theater, at least I would have had a better time.

[drotto]

4 minutes ago, Reader said:

Wow, disappointed to hear that a lot of SW die-hards on here did not dig it. Even guys who loved TFA did not like this. I hated TFA and loved Rogue One. I'm bailing from reading this thread now as I want to go into this movie somewhat objectively.

It seems like a hard core fan issue and a disconnect between die hard fans and with general audiences. The Last Jedi has received an A Cinemascore. Take that for what it is worth.  And how does that A reconcile with the fan scores on RT and Metacritic where the movie is very divisive to say the least.  I have rarely seen a movie with so little middle ground. It also means that a very vocal, somewhat sizable core group does indeed hate the film, but what percentage of the total movie audience is that as compared to the people who are posting their displeasure.

[Bosco685]

5 minutes ago, drotto said:

It seems like a hard core fan issue and a disconnect between die hard fans and with general audiences. The Last Jedi has received an A Cinemascore. Take that for what it is worth.  And how does that A reconcile with the fan scores on RT and Metacritic where the movie is very divisive to say the least.  I have rarely seen a movie with so little middle ground. It also means that a very vocal, somewhat sizable core group does indeed hate the film, but what percentage of the total movie audience is that as compared to the people who are posting their displeasure.

How could a movie dividing the audience like that receive an 'A' CinemaScore? That doesn't add up.

There is no confusing what the audience answers would be on liking what they saw, and even going to purchase this later on.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Bosco685

[drotto]

11 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

How could a movie dividing the audience like that receive an 'A' CinemaScore? That doesn't add up.

There is no confusing what the audience answers would be on liking what they saw, and even going to purchase this later on.

But if you go on RT the audience score is at 56%, and Metacritic sits at a 50.  I have read some of the reviews on MC on RT, as well as here, and they are scathingly bad.  So I am trying to figure out how those different items fit together.  The best I can figure is the general audiences liked it, but a smallish very vocal group of hard core fans are very ticked off. That group is now basically carpet bombing RT and MC with their displeasure and driving down the scores.  The happy general audience is not posting ( nor would I expect them to post).

Edited December 16, 2017 by drotto

[Bosco685]

Mashable hits on the differing audience reaction.

'The Last Jedi' is scoring lower with audiences than critics on Rotten Tomatoes

Quote

In part, this may have to do with what The Last Jedi is trying to achieve, versus what The Force Awakens was trying to do.

The Force Awakens was a crowd-pleaser by design. It had to be. It was the first Star Wars live-action movie in a decade, following three consecutive disappointments (i.e., the prequels). Its job was to get fans excited about the franchise again, to reassure them they were in good hands. The Last Jedi, on the other hand, assumes you're already on board with Star Wars – a luxury The Force Awakens did not have. It trusts you'll tag along as it charts a course into new territory.

 

The Last Jedi isn't trying to please the crowd. It's trying to surprise and challenge us. Maybe you think it succeeds. Maybe you think it doesn't. But it's clear what its ambition is.

 

Moreover, the people who vote on Rotten Tomatoes are a self-selecting group – they're the folks who felt strongly enough to log onto the site minutes or hours after the movie and voice their opinions.

Meanwhile, there's proof that "general audiences" who aren't Rotten Tomatoes voters feel just fine about the movie. Deadline reports a 90% positive ComScore as of Friday morning.

 

In short, the gap between The Last Jedi's Rotten Tomatoes critics' score and its audience score doesn't necessarily mean all that much at this point. The best advice here is Luke Skywalker's advice: "Breathe. Just breathe."

It's sounding like they are implying the hardcore movie-goers are the one that will go out of their way logging on to Rotten Tomatoes to voice their opinions, while general audiences are more open to new directions and therefore more satisfied.

[Bosco685]

6 minutes ago, drotto said:

But if you go on RT the audience score is at 56%, and Metacritic sits at a 50.  I have read some of the reviews on MC or on RT, as well as here, they are scathingly bad.  So I am trying to figure out how those different items fit together.  The best I can figure is the general audiences liked it, but a smallish very vocal group of hard core fans are very ticked off. That group is now basically carpet bombing RT and MC with their displeasure and driving down the scores.  The happy general audience is not posting ( nor would I expect them to post).

Bingo!

You and I just noted the same exact thing.

 

[Rip]

15 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

How could a movie dividing the audience like that receive an 'A' CinemaScore? That doesn't add up.

There is no confusing what the audience answers would be on liking what they saw, and even going to purchase this later on.

It's being trolled/bombed etc at both Metacritic and at RT. RT has way more votes than normal, all other audience polling sites have a much higher score. PostTrak audience score is 82%.

Fandango audience polling has 4.5 stars out of 5 

http://deadline.com/2017/12/the-last-jedi-star-wars-box-office-thursday-night-preview-record-1202227654/

So what do fans think? ComScore/Screen Engine reports a mindblowing five-out-of-five stars for the movie and a 90% overall positive with an 82% definite recommend. Forty five percent said that the Rian Johnson-directed movie came in above their expectations while close to 40% said they’ll the movie again in the theater. Huge. Older men over 25 came out in droves at 44% followed by females over 25 (24%), men under 25 (22%), and females under 25 (10%). 

 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Rip

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, Rip said:

It's being trolled at both Metacritic and at RT. RT has way more votes than normal, all other audience polling sites have a much higher score. PostTrak audience score is 82%.

So the hardcore fans that wanted something different for go-forward Star Wars are trolling with their feedback, but those that aren't having such feelings are not trolling because they scored it higher?

I'd think the folks delivering a negative score - with detailed write-ups what they saw in the movie which disappointed them compared to 'The Force Awakens' sounds like more hardcore fans than trolling.

[Rip]

5 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

So the hardcore fans that wanted something different for go-forward Star Wars are trolling with their feedback, but those that aren't having such feelings are not trolling because they scored it higher?

I'd think the folks delivering a negative score - with detailed write-ups what they saw in the movie which disappointed them compared to 'The Force Awakens' sounds like more hardcore fans than trolling.

Considering its a smaller group of people targeting specific websites lowing the overall score that doesn't represent the true population. Yea I'd say its trolling.

It would be just as incorrect if a group started voting positives for some movie to change the vote.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Rip

[drotto]

7 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Bingo!

You and I just noted the same exact thing.

 

So what kind of numbers does is take to basically invalidate the RT and MC fan scores.  Do those numbers really mean anything when the reviews have been positive, and other fan based metrics like Cinemascore are solid? Is that group large enough that the studio responds? Or is it a few hundred people making multiple posts under various names and just making a lot of noise?

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, drotto said:

So what kind of numbers does is take to basically invalidate the RT and MC fan scores.  Do those numbers really mean anything when the reviews have been positive, and other fan based metrics like Cinemascore are solid? Is that group large enough that the studio responds? Or is it a few hundred people making multiple posts under various names and just making a lot of noise?

That's what has me wondering how big the group is on the 'dissatisfied' side. But if the decision Disney had to make here is a story that will work for the general audience, but turn off the old-time, hardcore fans, it went with the money over a middle ground.

If you look at merchandising, I wonder if it is more the hardcore fans that have to purchase anything-everything Star Wars. So you want to keep them riding the wave as well, as the post-movie revenue with such things can be massive.

[Bosco685]

4 minutes ago, Rip said:

Considering its a smaller group of people targeting specific websites lowing the overall score that doesn't represent the true population. Yea I'd say its trolling.

Or, it is the hardcore fans that feel betrayed and are much more willing to strongly voice their opinion versus the general audience who came to the movie with no preconceived expectations.

If you get the chance, go pull down some of the audience reviews on RT. These aren't folks just posting 'sucked' and throwing out a low score. Many are very specific about character treatment and direction that bothered them.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

18 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Mashable hits on the differing audience reaction.

'The Last Jedi' is scoring lower with audiences than critics on Rotten Tomatoes

It's sounding like they are implying the hardcore movie-goers are the one that will go out of their way logging on to Rotten Tomatoes to voice their opinions, while general audiences are more open to new directions and therefore more satisfied.

 

9 minutes ago, drotto said:

So what kind of numbers does is take to basically invalidate the RT and MC fan scores.  Do those numbers really mean anything when the reviews have been positive, and other fan based metrics like Cinemascore are solid? Is that group large enough that the studio responds? Or is it a few hundred people making multiple posts under various names and just making a lot of noise?

Well, let's be honest...if you went to see it on the first day, you're probably a hardcore fan.  If you took the time to destroy the movie on R/T, you're probably a hardcore fan.  I'm sure the scores will tip the average upwards as the more casual fans from the first and subsequent weekends weigh-in.  I'm about at  1.5 star on the movie, but frankly, besides my own review here, I'm not really inclined to post my opinion elsewhere.  Frankly, I don't care enough about the direction of the franchise to bother.

However, I wouldn't be so dismissive about the opinions of hardcore fans.  They are the ones that kept the franchise alive through three decades of non-cannon literature, awful prequels, and endless merchandising of the same, rehashed material.  As a toy collector, I know where the money is in Star Wars collectibles, and it's heavily skewed in the 35 and older demographic.  Lose those folks at your own peril Disney.

Edited December 16, 2017 by JiveTurkeyMoFo

[Bosco685]

We have a guy at work that is so fanatical over Star Wars, he even has his original VHS tapes with the untampered original films that he keeps a VHS player handy to watch them. Behind his desk he has a glass case with Star Wars merchandise on display.

I look forward to hearing what his review will be once seeing this. He's a fairly open-minded and easy-going fellow.

[Bosco685]

1 minute ago, JiveTurkeyMoFo said:

However, I wouldn't be so dismissive about the opinions of hardcore fans.  They are the ones that kept the franchise alive through three decades of non-cannon literature, awful prequels, and endless merchandising of the same, rehashed material.  As a toy collector, I know where the money is in Star Wars collectibles, and it's heavily skewed in the 35 and older demographic.  Lose those folks at your own peril Disney.

Exactly what I noted a moment ago. These are the folks that have any action figure, poster, book, t-shirt they can get their hands on.

[Rip]

7 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

Or, it is the hardcore fans that feel betrayed and are much more willing to strongly voice their opinion versus the general audience who came to the movie with no preconceived expectations.

If you get the chance, go pull down some of the audience reviews on RT. These aren't folks just posting 'sucked' and throwing out a low score. Many are very specific about character treatment and direction that bothered them.

The first line is possible. But then if so, then why only target RT. I would think there were hardcore fans at all the other sites like IMDB which has a score at 8.0.

I would think at the theater after market tracking sites ComScore/Screen Engine  would have though would have better captured some of these as well on Thursday opening night. ComScore was a Thursday night poll.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Rip