STAR WARS : Episode VIII December 15, 2017 4 4

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

38 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Your characterization of Luke in the first part of your sentence is exactly correct. Luke was the "young, ever hopeful farm boy" who believed in redemption, even for Vader.

But he's also lived 30+ years since the events of Jedi, and seen that his work -- and the work of the Jedi in general -- has been for naught. They failed. Evil is just as persistence now under the burgeoning New Order as it was under the Empire of old.

Just as valid a character arc for me as Roy Batty's (given his monologue at the end) or Katniss Evergreen's -- who at the end of the first Hunger Games book is living out her retirement as a hollow shell, still suffering from PTSD from all she went through.

Even moreso because we don't know what personal struggles Luke himself endured in those 30 years -- how many he saw slaughtered, etc. All we know is that tyranny persisted anyway.

And no -- he was tempted to assassinate Ren -- momentarily overcome by the darkness in the pit -- but then he didn't. Of course he didn't. He's Luke Skywalker.

Here are two essays that discuss the fan disconnect far more eloquently than I at the moment:

1) Slashfilm: 

"Luke’s hopelessness is especially affecting because the film is clearly on his side. This is not a movie where a plucky young Jedi-to-be shows up at the old master’s doorstep and teaches him how to hope again. This is a movie where a flawed old man with a lifetime of victories and regrets informs the decisions of a new generation of young heroes who need to find a new way to hope. Clearly, the old ways didn’t work because darkness rises again and there are still tyrannical man-babies trying to be the next Darth Vader. There’s a flaw in the system, buried too deep for most to see, and the only solution is to burn it all down."

Further, "...Yoda knows what Luke knows – the order to which he dedicated his long life is gone, and trying to recapture it is a fool’s errand. Why resurrect an archaic institution that cannot serve a new generation when you can let that new generation build something new for itself? Even Luke, a noble man who believed in the hidden goodness of Darth Vader, gave into his darkest feelings and considered murdering young Ben Solo in his sleep. The old ways failed Luke. They failed Ben. They will fail the Resistance. Luke knows this through anger and regret. Yoda knows this through wisdom and perspective."

2) Vanity Fair: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-backlash-negative-fan-reactions-rotten-tomatoes-score

"Luke rallies when he needs to and pulls off the most powerful Force-using move we’ve ever seen in this franchise—a galaxy-spanning feat of astral projection. Luke had to hit rock bottom, green milk and all, in order to soar to new heights. This story was always going to end with Luke reduced, Yoda-like, to a pile of clothes and far from advocating the end of the Jedi, Johnson’s film firmly underlines how they will carry on—even without Luke."

Okay, but none of this addresses the very basic premise that Luke gave up on trying to rescue/save Ren or on confronting Snoke.  He gave up on training a new generation of Jedi because he came to believe their way was ineffective...Okay, I'll buy that, but he also gave up fighting evil entirely.  He let his sister risk her life to run the Resistance, abandoned his friends (Lando, Han, Chewy, etc.)  and he retreated to the back-end of the galaxy to get away from it all.

That's not a hero.  And if the moral of the story is that you give up when the odds seem long, or that you shouldn't even bother because you can't really destroy evil, well...WTF kind of lesson is that?  

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."   Which is exactly what Luke does: nothing. 

What's worse in all this is that Luke's actions directly influenced the transformation of Ben Solo into Kylo Ren, yet he took no responsibility for it at all, or rather, just shrugged his shoulders and said "oh well, that stinks...time to skid-daddle to a backwater planet and let my mess consume the galaxy."  Again, WTF kind of lesson is that?

I'm sorry, since we can only extrapolate from the material we are presented with, I'm not inclined to give TLJ Luke a pass based off of his hypothetical personal struggles of the last 30 years.  He should've known better, he should've have done more, and he didn't.  Mark Hamill has every right to be critical of the treatment of Luke, because no one knows that character better than him, not Lucas, not the fanbase, and certainly not Rian Johnson.

Edited December 18, 2017 by JiveTurkeyMoFo

[Bosco685]

IGN reporter has had quite a few folks point out how disappointed they were with the treatment of certain characters. More than he has experienced from recent modern Star Wars movies.

[fantastic_four]

8 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

11 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

I think she was lied to about her origin. To convince her to fall in with his plan for moving forward. At least, I think that is what took place.

 Bosco and I agree about something??

But...exactly.

Folks who are butthurt about this seem to be ignoring the strong (and ridiculously obvious) possibility that Kylo was lying.

I can't believe you guys believe Rian Johnson lied to that reporter to mislead fans.  When has any director done that after a film has been released?    All that could do is make your fans not trust anything you say.

[fantastic_four]

8 hours ago, Rip said:

Was Kylo lying? How did he lie if she already knew the answer before he told her?

Furthermore when she looked for answers in the cave it seemed to be telling her that parents didn't matter, only who she was right now.

 

“But for me, in that moment, Kylo believes it’s the truth,” Johnson added. “I don’t think he’s purely playing chess. I think that’s what he saw when they touched fingers and that’s what he believes. And when he tells her that in that moment, she believes it.”

 

Edit, but who know what JJ could do. She did say she had been to the Force tree before. Was it in a dream or is she something reincarnated.

If it's possible that Rian Johnson changed the intent of Abrams with respect to Rey's parents, or that Abrams could change it yet again, then Disney REALLY needs a story czar for Star Wars.  Like him or hate him, at least George Lucas kept the story straight.  Kevin Feige serves a similar purpose for Marvel, but I'm not sure if Kathleen Kennedy is filling that role here.  If she's not, someone needs to.

[fantastic_four]

2 hours ago, JiveTurkeyMoFo said:

BTW, has anyone figured out why Luke left a map with R2 to this planet, if he didn't want to be found?

No, and it's the first thought that popped into my mind when he made his frame of mind clear.

[Bosco685]

‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi': Rian Johnson Gives His Take on Rey’s Parents

Quote

In a climactic scene toward the end of The Last Jedi, while deciding her future with Kylo Ren (Adam Driver), Rey is faced with what seems like a devastating answer to the question of who her parents were. Kylo seemingly allows her to envision her past and pushes her to come to terms with her heritage, and she comes to admit that her parents were nobodies, junk traders who traded her for money, food, booze, or who knows what. It’s a good answer but the obvious question here is whether or not Kylo had overwhelmed Rey and projected that answer into her mind to trick her or if that is truly her origin story.

 

Speaking with EW at a Q&A following an AMPAS screening, director Rian Johnson said that he was not given a rulebook to follow regarding Rey, that he was able to answer that question the way he wanted to answer it. And as far as he sees it, it’s legit, though he acknowledges that he can’t speak for what J.J. Abrams and Chris Terrio are doing with the next film:

 

“I can’t speak to what they’re going to do. And there’s always, in these movies, a question of ‘a certain point of view,’…But for me, in that moment, Kylo believes it’s the truth. I don’t think he’s purely playing chess. I think that’s what he saw when they touched fingers and that’s what he believes. And when he tells her that in that moment, she believes it.”

 

The director also spoke to how he came to the decision to make Rey’s parents seemingly unimportant in the established universe of the movies:

 

“I was thinking, what’s the most powerful answer to that question? Powerful meaning: what’s the hardest thing that Rey could hear? That’s what you’re after with challenging your characters,”

 

“The easiest thing for Rey and the audience to hear is, Oh yeah, you’re so-and-so’s daughter. That would be wish fulfillment and instantly hand her a place in this story on a silver platter…The hardest thing for her is to hear she’s not going to get that easy answer. Not only that, but Kylo is going to use the fact that you don’t get that answer to try and weaken you so you have to lean on him,”

I think from seeing some of those quotes, it was an answer at a point-in-time that has room to change. So it's not like the director was lying. He leaves wiggle room for that answer to change, leaving him free-and-clear without it coming back at him.

[Mephisto]

11 hours ago, Wolverinex said:

Just watched this and I like it better than TFA.  The only bummer was .  It seemed so pointless and he's the best thing about the movie anyway.  Why couldn't they keep that character for the next movie... now I don't really care as much about the new characters so I may not watch movie 9. 

  Hide contents

Luke dying

 

This was the exact way I felt after this movie. I also flipped on the new characters. I didn’t like Rey nearly as much in this one and didn’t like Ren quite as much. I may have liked Finn better and definitely Poe but that might have been a product of more screen time.

[fantastic_four]

14 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

‘Star Wars: The Last Jedi': Rian Johnson Gives His Take on Rey’s Parents

I think from seeing some of those quotes, it was an answer at a point-in-time that has room to change. So it's not like the director was lying. He leaves wiggle room for that answer to change, leaving him free-and-clear without it coming back at him.

The wiggle room isn't that Kylo was lying, it's that he misinterpreted what he saw in Rey's memories.  He clearly says Kylo wasn't lying.

Among other possibilities, it's possible that those weren't even Rey's parents, but she didn't know that at all.  If that's the case, Kylo wouldn't know it either if his insight into her parents came from her own mind.

Edited December 18, 2017 by fantastic_four

[Bosco685]

3 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

The wiggle room isn't that Kylo was lying, it's that he misinterpreted what he saw in Rey's memories.  He clearly says Kylo wasn't lying.

Among other possibilities, it's possible that those weren't even Rey's parents, but she didn't know that at all.  If that's the case, Kylo wouldn't know it either if his insight into her parents came from her own mind.

I can go with that.

Especially if she has convinced herself her parents were nothing, so she is not worthy. So his tapping into her mind picked up on the same emotions and thoughts.

[bane]

Finding out Rey's parents were nobodies didn't bother me in the slightest, there are bigger problems with this movie then that revelation.

[fantastic_four]

She certainly doesn't have to be a Skywalker to be Force-sensitive; it's not like the 100+ Sith and Jedi shown throughout the prequels were all Skywalkers.  And I don't have a need as a fan for her to be a Skywalker, or a Kenobi, or related to any of the core characters, but Abrams most definitely hinted that she was in multiple ways.  It sucks if Abrams was teasing it and then Rian Johnson deciding to ignore all that and do his own thing.  

When Rian says "I can’t speak to what they’re going to do," that implies that there's no plan for these characters.  If that's right, THAT has to change.  If they're going to tell an ongoing story with elements linked from film to film, they HAVE to have someone keeping that consistent.

[fantastic_four]

2 minutes ago, bane said:

Finding out Rey's parents were nobodies didn't bother me in the slightest, there are bigger problems with this movie then that revelation.

It bugged me only because it took effort to sort out all the hints Abrams dropped in Force Awakens that she was somehow related to a core character, but then she wasn't, meaning I wasted my time following those breadcrumbs to begin with.  It'd be like someone designing a maze with no exit; that's just a wrong thing to do.

Edited December 18, 2017 by fantastic_four

[bane]

Just now, fantastic_four said:

She certainly doesn't have to be a Skywalker to be Force-sensitive; it's not like the 100+ Sith and Jedi shown throughout the prequels were all Skywalkers.  And I don't have a need as a fan for her to be a Skywalker, or a Kenobi, or related to any of the core characters, but Abrams most definitely hinted that she was in multiple ways.  It sucks if Abrams was teasing it and then Rian Johnson deciding to ignore all that and do his own thing.  

When Rian says "I can’t speak to what they’re going to do," that implies that there's no plan for these characters.  If that's right, THAT has to change.  If they're going to tell an ongoing story with elements linked from film to film, they HAVE to have someone keeping that consistent.

Agreed, at least Lucas had an idea where both of his trilogies were going.

It seems like Abrams folded some paper twice, drew something on the top part, gave the next section to Rian Johnson who drew something without seeing what Abrams drew, remember that old game?

[Bosco685]

8 minutes ago, bane said:

Finding out Rey's parents were nobodies didn't bother me in the slightest, there are bigger problems with this movie then that revelation.

Amen to that!!

[Turtle]

21 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

  It moves things further from any science-based reasoning at all and more towards magic.

This comment stood out to me.  There were a TON of people who, upon the release of The Phantom Menace and the introduction of midichlorians, were upset that the Force was trending away from magic and moving toward science.  It's just interesting to hear the complaint in reverse so many years later. 

[fantastic_four]

1 minute ago, Turtle said:

This comment stood out to me.  There were a TON of people who, upon the release of The Phantom Menace and the introduction of midichlorians, were upset that the Force was trending away from magic and moving toward science.  It's just interesting to hear the complaint in reverse so many years later. 

I liked the idea of midichlorians both then and now, but experience with hearing complaints about it through the years tells me I'm in the minority so I'm not surprised they've never mentioned it again.  I suppose given that the Force is so clearly not sci-fi and just pure fantasy that it's appropriate to keep it magical.

[bane]

Star Wars is not sci-fi, its pure fantasy.

[fantastic_four]

1 hour ago, fantastic_four said:

3 hours ago, JiveTurkeyMoFo said:

BTW, has anyone figured out why Luke left a map with R2 to this planet, if he didn't want to be found?

No, and it's the first thought that popped into my mind when he made his frame of mind clear.

This site has a simple explanation for the map:

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/113497/if-luke-skywalker-didn-t-want-to-be-found-why-did-he-leave-a-map

So it's really not a map to Luke, it's a map to the first Jedi Temple.  And he told Han and Leia that's where he was going, so other people described it as a map to where he was; it's not something Luke explicitly left for others to find.

[Chicago Boy]

DISNEY KILLED STAR WARS !  WITHOUT LUCAS THERE IS NO SW

[fantastic_four]

30 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

DISNEY KILLED STAR WARS !  WITHOUT LUCAS THERE IS NO SW

I SLIT MY WRISTS AFTER I WAS FORCED TO SIT AND WATCH THE HIJINKS OF JAR JAR BINKS, AND I AM WRITING THIS POST AS A FORCE GHOST.