STAR WARS : Episode VIII December 15, 2017 4 4

[comix4fun]

2 hours ago, The Shoveler said:

 

• The Red Room.  Too much red.  Flat red walls, red costumes and red weapons.  The screen was so over-saturated with flat blood red that these scenes were nearly unwatchable for me.  This set needs some scaffolding, utility pipes, paneling, machinery topped with IG-88 craniums, and a smokey mist to add some depth.  I kept expecting a crew of Imperial troops to rush into the frame with end tables, a potted plant, an easel to display big charts with the quarterly metrics, install a dry-erase board to a wall, etc.  "Welcome, Kylo!  They haven't finished decorating my new office, but I just couldn't wait to move in.  Don't mind the workers.  And sorry about all the smokey mist...the evaporator is malfunctioning.  I just contacted a new troop in Maintenance...She'll be here shortly with a janitor and a plucky service droid.  Now, on to business..."

I am in agreement with everything you said, but this point in particular was something that bothered me when watching the film but I couldn't put my finger on why. 

Those great original trilogy/death star/throne room battles were set in dark rooms, with dark backgrounds and the contrasting brightness and color of the lightsabers really make a deep and lasting impression. Obviously, those scenes were deeply thought out with an eye towards what would be the most striking visual image possible....whereas the Redroomruckus™ looked like Snoke found a ton of red paint on sale and just went with it. 

[AnthonyTheAbyss]

Has anybody figured out if this movie is a hit or a flop yet?

[Gatsby77]

33 minutes ago, AnthonyTheAbyss said:

Has anybody figured out if this movie is a hit or a flop yet?

Forbes' Rob Cain is calling it a flop:

He noted this morning that its daily % holdovers are collapsing faster than any of the previous eight Star Wars movies.

Quote

After opening at nearly 90 percent of The Force Awakens' strength, The Last Jedi has steadily fallen behind, and by Wednesday, its 6^th full day in release, it was holding its audience at a lesser rate than every one of the previous eight live action Star Wars movies. It had retained just 16 percent of its opening day gross, a figure that, as the chart below shows, is well below the holds for The Force Awakens, Rogue One, and the last of the prequels, Revenge of the Sith.

Quote

In fact, The Last Jedi isn't even holding as well as Justice League did. On its sixth day the DC film retained 27 percent of its opening day audience, nearly double what the Star Wars picture has done.

So, he thinks it's on track to do *just* $1.2 billion worldwide, a "catastrophic" result after The Force Awakens' $900 million domestic /$2 billion worldwide.

Yesterday, Forbes' Scott Mendelson was more sanguine, predicting "oh noes!" it won't cross $1 bn. worldwide until New Year's.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Gatsby77

[zhamlau]

Saw the movie, I have to say I completely understand the reviews. Ill try to be spoiler free for those who havent seen it.

 

 If your livelihood is based on being invited to early screenings of movies and being able to parrot the group think of other paid reviewers, you probably are going to like this movie lest you not get invited back (or risk being ostracized by social media mobs for 'not getting it").

If you paid to go see the movie and risk nothing by being honest about what it is and what it isn't, you probably didn't like the movie to much.

 

From my experience it was a train wreck Frankenstein of a production that had multiple cooks and multiple sets of needs pulling it in multiple directions at once.

 

1. Disney wanted to rebrand star wars with its characters and its story lines of young actresses and actors they could control and market. To them the idea of "Star Wars" being special or important really didnt mean much. They didnt view themselves as stewards of a core piece of American (and now really global) cultural history. They viewed it as a money making tool that could be most effectively monetized by setting fire what stood now so they can bulldoze and build a new structure they feel will be optimized for future cross promotional marketing platforms.

2. The writers and directors wanted to tell a story they felt had more social justice value, that could somehow "right" perceived wrongs of the past.

Those two forces came together and the mish-mash you see now is the hot mess that is "TLJ". It didn't have to be this way. You could have made both the desires of the social justice set AND the Disney bean-counters happy WITHOUT setting complete fire to our shared cultural heritage. You could have made a movie that was not riddled with impossible lazy plot conveniences and disposable characters and story lines. YOU COULD have written strong dynamic characters and plot points that actually develop together and make the entire audience care and want to know more....You COULD have done all that , but clearly Disney didnt. It was a weird sort of cruel calculus on display. The thought must have been "we know the OT folks and even the PT folks will be so invested that no matter how badly we treat them, they will come back so we dont have to worry about upsetting them. Knowing that lets create something that will get all the right heads in the media nodding and cooing so that we can now bring in the folks who wouldn't normally be into "star wars". And if any of the old time fans complain about how pathetically poorly written the characters are or the plot is, we can just call them "sad old dinosaur star wars nerds" and drown out their critiques."

Where you are really seeing this dynamic play out is in the RT fan reviews. Ive read hundreds of them after seeing the movie. Its in that little metric that the entire narrative about this movie is being disrupted and the official story is being questioned.

 

Long and short, its a bad movie that cared more about taking care of social issues and potential future toy licensing agreements then respecting its audience (or for that matter even telling a good story based on competent craftsmanship).

[comix4fun]

I have  ton of criticism for the film but it's social themes and big anti-facist themes, aren't one of them. 

I didn't see much in the way of social issues being pushed in this film any more than any other Star Wars film. 

They've always been about fighting facism and intolerance and valuing the individual and the individuals rights over the mob, over the authoritarians, over those that would subjugate instead of set free.

Every generation reads a little more or something a little different into the social themes that have been present through all the films and properties to date, but they are pretty consistent from the beginning to now. 

The original trilogy and even the junky prequels had diverse casts that covered many races, both genders, had heroes and villains of all shapes, sizes, ages etc. So I didn't notice much that's different here than what came before. 

 

[zhamlau]

6 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

I have  ton of criticism for the film but it's social themes and big anti-facist themes, aren't one of them. 

I didn't see much in the way of social issues being pushed in this film any more than any other Star Wars film. 

They've always been about fighting facism and intolerance and valuing the individual and the individuals rights over the mob, over the authoritarians, over those that would subjugate instead of set free.

Every generation reads a little more or something a little different into the social themes that have been present through all the films and properties to date, but they are pretty consistent from the beginning to now. 

The original trilogy and even the junky prequels had diverse casts that covered many races, both genders, had heroes and villains of all shapes, sizes, ages etc. So I didn't notice much that's different here than what came before. 

 

Yeah, pretty sure no movie has ever been criticized for being "anti fascist"...To be fair though, I would say this movie really didn't make much play at that. But if it did i would imagine no one would criticize that either.

[comix4fun]

2 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Yeah, pretty sure no movie has ever been criticized for being "anti fascist"...To be fair though, I would say this movie really didn't make much play at that. But if it did i would imagine no one would criticize that either.

I meant to ask in that other post, being that I couldn't imagine people had a problem with battling the evil empire, what the social things that bothered people. 

[zhamlau]

1 minute ago, comix4fun said:

I meant to ask in that other post, being that I couldn't imagine people had a problem with battling the evil empire, what the social things that bothered people. 

Hard to say how many were upset that SJ was a major pillar of the film, and how many were upset by the way it was done. I think they were mostly upset at the fact that they ended up with a horrible plot with impossible/inconsistent character and narrative elements as a byproduct of trying to work around its framework. I think people can be down with social/political agenda driven entertainment as long as its smart and competent.

[fett]

16 hours ago, Mickey7 said:

It had a few moments that were enjoyable, but overall a disapointment.  The Finn & Rose storyline went nowhere. They failed their loooong mission ... but it didn't matter. I needed some kind of backstory, even a little, of the First Order or Snoke.  But nothing.   The movie was too long and disjointed, and I think it could easily have been edited down 20 minutes.                      I actually kind of liked the Force projection of Luke part ... but then he dies the next scene.  .                What is the consensus on why Luke died?  Did he give himself to the force?  Was it the strain of projecting himself? 

he died of mediocrity

[comicwiz]

I actually am not that suprised to hear this kind of criticism, although I do question the "clean slate" notion. SW toys started to really "taper off" in the first half of the year, and while I can see this being attributed to fatigue, I really believe the combination of a movie on the slate for each calendar year, and the glut of new merchandise hitting the market are contributing to the slump. I use this as context for the fact that one of the things this movie didn't do well is character development. Characters we thought we would see progress were stunted through what I would describe as "awkward pause" scripting, and those who were new had either too little screen time or were written off the -------script before we could really get to know them. Rose action figures would probably be the peg warmers for this generation, and I mention this not to be negative, but to highlight the point that if this movie tried to do away with old to bring in the new, and to continue on the legacy of a licensing/merchandise juggernaut, it failed miserably.

Edited December 22, 2017 by comicwiz

[Gatsby77]

4 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

Hard to say how many were upset that SJ was a major pillar of the film, and how many were upset by the way it was done. I think they were mostly upset at the fact that they ended up with a horrible plot with impossible/inconsistent character and narrative elements as a byproduct of trying to work around its framework. I think people can be down with social/political agenda driven entertainment as long as its smart and competent.

I'm confused.

As others noted above, social justice has _always_ been a core pillar of the Star Wars films, original and prequel trilogies included.

Unless by social/political agenda you're referring to insufficiently_thoughtful_persons on the "alt right" who are protesting how the new trilogy includes more women and minorities in lead roles...

[zhamlau]

1 minute ago, Gatsby77 said:

I'm confused.

As others noted above, social justice has _always_ been a core pillar of the Star Wars films, original and prequel trilogies included.

Unless by social/political agenda you're referring to insufficiently_thoughtful_persons on the "alt right" who are protesting how the new trilogy includes more women and minorities in lead roles...

Well, I'm not sure exactly that social justice had a huge roll in the OT, so I'm not sure I agree with you there. You might have seen it, and if so that's cool but I never saw it.  But as for the rest of your post I don't know how to reply since your having an issue with some hypothetical third person(s) so ill just leave that be.

[Gatsby77]

Just now, zhamlau said:

Well, I'm not sure exactly that social justice had a huge roll in the OT, so I'm not sure I agree with you there. You might have seen it, and if so that's cool but I never saw it.  But as for the rest of your post I don't know how to reply since your having an issue with some hypothetical third person(s) so ill just leave that be.

Then what do you mean by "social justice?"

As noted by Comix4fun above, the original trilogy was all about social justice -- a small group of rebels fighting to prevent the spread of a totalitarian, fascist government across the galaxy.

And if you're referring to the theme from the casino scene, with its focus on the 1%'ers being amoral arms dealers willing to (gasp!) sell to both sides, that's little different than Lando Calrissian's actions in Empire, when he sold out Han and crew to the Empire when they offered him "a better deal."

[zhamlau]

3 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

Then what do you mean by "social justice?"

As noted by Comix4fun above, the original trilogy was all about social justice -- a small group of rebels fighting to prevent the spread of a totalitarian, fascist government across the galaxy.

And if you're referring to the theme from the casino scene, with its focus on the 1%'ers being amoral arms dealers willing to (gasp!) sell to both sides, that's little different than Lando Calrissian's actions in Empire, when he sold out Han and crew to the Empire when they offered him "a better deal."

Again, someone just saying "it was all about social justice" doesn't make it so (at least to me). If you choose to see it that way so be it, im big believer in individual experiences and personal expression and that we don't agree on an interpretation doesn't drive me to anger.

Anyway back on target, I'm not sure where the movie goes from this point forward. I'm not seeing much options here now that Fisher has passed away and all the other mains have in essence been killed due to their interactions with Kylo. Disney wanted to burn down the old temple, consider it torched. Im not sure in one movie they can reset and build a new dynamic world fans will be collecting and obsessing on for generations. We shall see.

[Artboy99]

2 hours ago, comix4fun said:

I am in agreement with everything you said, but this point in particular was something that bothered me when watching the film but I couldn't put my finger on why. 

Those great original trilogy/death star/throne room battles were set in dark rooms, with dark backgrounds and the contrasting brightness and color of the lightsabers really make a deep and lasting impression. Obviously, those scenes were deeply thought out with an eye towards what would be the most striking visual image possible....whereas the Redroomruckus™ looked like Snoke found a ton of red paint on sale and just went with it. 

My "favorite" part of the Redroomruckus was the fight that Rey and Ren had with the red masked faceless dudes. The greatest challenge either of them had in the entire movie!

They were just like red shirt guys in that other Star franchise.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Artboy99

[zhamlau]

1 minute ago, Artboy99 said:

My "favorite" part of the Redroomruckus was the fight that Rey and Ren had with the red masked faceless dudes. The greatest challenge either of them had in the entire movie!

Honestly, it was like the only challenge anyone had in the movie. It felt like the only part that any main character was in any personal danger that required them to fight their way out of. The rest were just "we got saved by happy timing accident" or "I choose to die by my own hand" situations. Even Luke goes out to "exhaustion". 

[AnthonyTheAbyss]

1 hour ago, Gatsby77 said:

Forbes' Rob Cain is calling it a flop:

I honestly think we need to stop ranking these movies individually.  They need to be grouped as trilogies (or one 6 hour gigantic movie).

 

With all the flaws of Phantom Menace and Attack Of The Clones I think that trilogy really ended on a high note with Revenge Of The Sith.

 

So while I'm disappointed in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi I'm still holding out hope for the final installment to make my final judgment.  That final movie better be mind blowing.

[Artboy99]

26 minutes ago, AnthonyTheAbyss said:

I honestly think we need to stop ranking these movies individually.  They need to be grouped as trilogies (or one 6 hour gigantic movie).

 

With all the flaws of Phantom Menace and Attack Of The Clones I think that trilogy really ended on a high note with Revenge Of The Sith.

 

So while I'm disappointed in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi I'm still holding out hope for the final installment to make my final judgment.  That final movie better be mind blowing.

That is asking for something that they have yet to deliver.

[Mr Sneeze]

44 minutes ago, AnthonyTheAbyss said:

I honestly think we need to stop ranking these movies individually.  They need to be grouped as trilogies (or one 6 hour gigantic movie).

 

With all the flaws of Phantom Menace and Attack Of The Clones I think that trilogy really ended on a high note with Revenge Of The Sith.

 

So while I'm disappointed in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi I'm still holding out hope for the final installment to make my final judgment.  That final movie better be mind blowing.

Hard to imagine the next installment after a movie that pulls the rug out from under the previous one.

[CAHokie]

I could see them destroying C3PO and/or R2 next movie. Once you knock them off you concentrate on new droids for merchandising.