August Heritage Auction

[delekkerste]

There are other artists with a different skill set. One of them illustrated a Frankenstein plate without Frankenstein on it and still break records. If you dissect the elements going in to what makes these two examples valuable you will have different results. A greater percentage is placed on the content in the first example and a greater percentage is placed on the artist in the second example. As far as I can tell A-list artists are those which bring the greatest value to a piece of original artwork outside of the context/character.

 

This has been a good debate, but, ultimately, I and many others just don't agree with your definition of what makes an A-list artist.

 

By your criteria, what does that make Steve Ditko, then? Outside of Spidey and Doc Strange, the vast majority of his work doesn't sell for extraordinary prices. In fact, a lot of his Charlton and other indie work does not sell for A-list prices, while even much of his later Marvel work (e.g., a Marvel Indiana Jones page) sells for practically peanuts (3 figures in many cases). I think Wrightson is very much the exception when it comes to A-list artists - he did it largely without the benefit of working long-term with a popular, mainstream character (in fact, he didn't even spend all that long on Swamp Thing).

 

Romita ASM will surely stand the test of time as well as anything in this hobby. Wrightson Swamp Thing...it's debatable, not being in the same kind of limelight. You can say that it's all about the character, but, in the end, Romita played a huge role in making Spidey what he is today. Much as Byrne (and Claremont, of course) helped make the X-Men franchise what it is today - he took over the revamped cast from Cockrum and ran with it, much as Romita took over Spidey from Ditko and stamped his authority on the title (heck, the entire company) for years. I don't really believe in this "A art by a B list artist" either. In the case of Gil Kane and his greatest hits, or Herb Trimpe and Hulk 180-181, I totally get it. But, Romita ASM? No way. At some point, it's just no longer credible to separate A art from A artist, and I think Romita long surpassed that milestone. Solid A-lister all the way in my book.

[Peter G]

It might be if we were talking about anything BUT secondary art market value. However that is the ONLY thing being debated.

 

Is that all we're talking about ? Ok, maybe I misunderstood. Sorry. I thought you were making claims as regards technical ability.

 

 

 

 

I love the quotes on "true" artist btw. Show me my post where that direct quote is from.

 

Sometimes I "quote" things to hi-light the subjectivity of a word. They are more like "air quotes". I hope you or anybody else didnt take my quotes to mean or imply you said the word "true"

 

 

[buyatari]

It might be if we were talking about anything BUT secondary art market value. However that is the ONLY thing being debated.

 

Is that all we're talking about ? Ok, maybe I misunderstood. Sorry. I thought you were making claims as regards technical ability.

 

 

 

 

I love the quotes on "true" artist btw. Show me my post where that direct quote is from.

 

Sometimes I "quote" things to hi-light the subjectivity of a word. They are more like "air quotes". I hope you or anybody else didnt take my quotes to mean or imply you said the word "true"

 

 

The last thing I want is to show disrespect towards any of the artists being discussed or posters who have added to the discussion. I have enjoyed this discussion because it has opened my eyes to many silver age artists that were before my time. If my discussions have focused on $ signs over talent it is because up till now it has been somewhat easier for me to make those connections and to understand.

 

I'm no art snob. That is for sure. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not knowledgeable enough about this material or the artists discussed to make a detailed critique of an artist's talent worth a damn. However, thanks to this forum and discussions like this I do feel that I have gained a deeper appreciation and know a little bit more than I did a few years ago. So for that I am grateful to all who have participated in this thread and many others like it.

 

With that said I'll agree to throw in the white towel and you art snobs can get back on topic.

[Peter G]

 

With that said I'll agree to throw in the white towel and you art snobs can get back on topic.

 

Quitter

[Peter G]

This discussion really has reminded me how ground breaking the artists were prior to 1969/1970

 

From 1970 onwards, a lot of the art became so much more "detailed"

 

And 1989-present super detailed

 

But the simplicity of the early stuff from the 60s and earlier really resonates with me for some unknown reason

 

Don't know why I appreciate the older stuff so much more, as I was born in 1980, way after it was created. Guess I'm just an old soul

[buyatari]

This has been a good debate, but, ultimately, I and many others just don't agree with your definition of what makes an A-list artist.

 

I'm glad to hear you say that and must say that you have motivated me to find some old trades on silver age Spiderman. Most of the commercial artwork that I have collected is not comic artwork. I'm coming from a different world with different rules where the artist plays much less a role than the character represented.

 

By your criteria, what does that make Steve Ditko, then? Outside of Spidey and Doc Strange, the vast majority of his work doesn't sell for extraordinary prices. In fact, a lot of his Charlton and other indie work does not sell for A-list prices, while even much of his later Marvel work (e.g., a Marvel Indiana Jones page) sells for practically peanuts (3 figures in many cases).

 

I do have a soft spot for Ditko but if what you are saying is true then I personally wouldn't consider him an A lister either. Fans of Ditko shouldn't want him to be as it keeps at least some of his material affordable.

Point me in the direction of those Indiana Jones pages as that is something I could afford.

 

I think Wrightson is very much the exception when it comes to A-list artists - he did it largely without the benefit of working long-term with a popular, mainstream character (in fact, he didn't even spend all that long on Swamp Thing).

 

Dave Stevens

 

 

Wrightson Swamp Thing...it's debatable, not being in the same kind of limelight. You can say that it's all about the character, but, in the end, Romita played a huge role in making Spidey what he is today. Much as Byrne (and Claremont, of course) helped make the X-Men franchise what it is today - he took over the revamped cast from Cockrum and ran with it, much as Romita took over Spidey from Ditko and stamped his authority on the title (heck, the entire company) for years. I don't really believe in this "A art by a B list artist" either. In the case of Gil Kane and his greatest hits, or Herb Trimpe and Hulk 180-181, I totally get it. But, Romita ASM? No way. At some point, it's just no longer credible to separate A art from A artist, and I think Romita long surpassed that milestone. Solid A-lister all the way in my book.

 

While I've never debated the value of his ASM work with time what you are saying may well be true. I'll have to absorb some of this material and come back to you on this.

 

In the end these terms A lister B lister etc don't really mean anything. You or me or everyone here in unison could assign such a term to any artist and it changes nothing in the marketplace. You have been privy to far more market data than I have. Perhaps you use these terms to express your understanding of the marketplace that better explains or sorts the data you have seen. I've seen far less but have done the same with different results and I still have a lot to learn.

 

 

 

[zhamlau]

So...if the standard is....

 

1. Story Telling

2. Unique Style

3. Anatomical Accuracy

4. Proper physics and perspective

5. Human Faces and gesture expression.

 

 

Does that mean the greatest artist of all time is Wally Wood? Is there any one of these criteria he doesnt excel in?

[Bronty]

For the record I have no disrespect of Romita either. He's a good artist. Just not, in my opinion, at the top echelon.

[tth2]

I think Wrightson is very much the exception when it comes to A-list artists - he did it largely without the benefit of working long-term with a popular, mainstream character (in fact, he didn't even spend all that long on Swamp Thing).

 

Dave Stevens

Off the top of my head, Frank Frazetta, Lou Fine, Wally Wood and Brian Bolland come to mind.

 

[tth2]

For the record I have no disrespect of Romita either. He's a good artist. Just not, in my opinion, at the top echelon.

Exactly.

 

I get similar pushback every time I say that John Buscema isn't a great artist. From the angry, indignant responses, you would've thought I had accused him of being Don Heck Jr. or Herb Trimpe Jr.

[Silver Surfer]

Maybe because it's like saying "Elvis couldn't sing very well", makes no sense.

[romitaman]

speaking of the SECONDARY ART MARKET people are talking about.......

 

If Romita is only great because he drew SPIDERMAN (as a few people are saying) then why do I get more requests for art pages with MARY JANE and GWEN on them than I do for Spiderman action pages? AND these "GIRL" pages are similar in value....( slightly lower in value..but close.....even at auction)

 

here is a pretty good question for the list............

 

PLEASE tell me "1" Pen and ink super hero COMIC BOOK artist who can say that their "character" pages are as sought after by collectors as their hero battle pages? just one!

 

Romita made AMAZING SPIDERMAN into the greatest soap opera in comics and its because he draws woman so beautifully in pen and ink.......

 

maybe i'm forgetting another artist or 2 but I can not think of any artist and any title from the silver or bronze age that can say this. again if I forgot something then I will stand corrected.

 

also...... Dave Stevens of frank Frazetta to me are amazing...but......neither of them drew super heroes (unless you count Rocketeer) and Dave Stevens created a very very small amount of pen and ink super hero work in his career and frank Frazetta is a god but there is not alot of his pen and ink COMIC BOOK work out there as he of course is known mostly for his amazing paintings and women...but he never drew superhero comics really.

 

so in summary..my question to the list is....how many comic book artists out there do they know where an artists CHARACTER pages are as sought after as their superhero action pages?

 

I can only think of one............JOHN ROMITA!

 

and again... we obviously can all agree to disagree on such a subjective subject as what we are talking about...

 

if someone thinks Romita ASM art sucks...it doesn't bother me a bit.........but I'll always make my points why I feel the other guy is mistaken.

 

and I gotta say.......I actually got made fun of by many of the dealers and higher end collectors in our hobby when i first started collecting.....when they found out in 1989-90 that I was the guy collecting ROMITA Spiderman art....

 

Mike

[Bronty]

Mike, that has literally nothing to do with anything being discussed.

 

In fact, it sort of proves the point because I'd be happy to bet the only character pages requested heavily are ASM cast.

[AKA Rick]

For the record I have no disrespect of Romita either. He's a good artist. Just not, in my opinion, at the top echelon.

 

The thing about opinions are that everyone has 'em and if they're subjective (not fact based), then they're always right (to the person stating that opinion). It's hard to debate with a person on a subjective stance to sway their opinion, it's like when you see on social media like Facebook, discussions about politics, gun control, etc. - - one side's continual postings will not sway the other, and in fact it's sort of an invitation for emotional arguments more so than peaceful discussions.

 

So, with artwork, I personally think some artists are overrated, but that's my opinion. I can't go ga-ga over Mark Schultz, Jeff Jones, Bruce Timm, Bill Watterson, Frank Miller, Moebius and a host of other names praised as high as Jesus within the art hobby. In the same breath, and I know folks will discount my opinions, I do like some of the works by Greg Land, who is one of the most often panned and criticized artists. It's okay, those are my opinions and nothing anyone can say would change my mind, much like those who are Romita naysayers.

 

I do like Romita Sr.s artwork a lot, not so much Romita Jr's (unless during the 1980's, especially when inked by Layton, which I did like a lot). Early on, I used to not like Kirby, Ditko, Kane and Infantino as a reader in my childhood more so than Pollard, Buckler, Neal Adams, Byrne and Perez. Later on, I grew an appreciation for the former artists and storytelling style.

 

I think it's fine just to like what you like and respect others for what they like as their personal choices and decisions without criticism of the person or what they like.

[tth2]

Maybe because it's like saying "Elvis couldn't sing very well", makes no sense.

Besides the fact that I never said "John Buscema couldn`t draw very well", your analogy is spot-on.

[Ironmandrd]

Seems to me, this is almost more about how you define what the "A List" is supposed to be or represent -- and there seems to be some wide differences about what the A List stands for.

 

Googling A List and A Lister yields results that combine attributes of the person with their circumstances (in the context of celebrities, actors, social butterflies, etc.).

 

For the record, I'm in the camp of Romita on the A List (not the very top but on the List).

[jbud73]

The price of art often fails to track with the quality of the art so the prices paid for Romita Marvel superhero pages just proves they are expensive.

 

I think we clearly have different opinions on what constitutes "being on the A-list" in comic art. To you, it seems to be strictly a talent competition, whereas I view the validation by the fan base and the dollars put to work in the marketplace that ultimately count. To me, talent alone does not get you on the A-list in comic art any more than it does in music or film or fine art.

 

If we're strictly judging talent, then maybe Romita isn't in the pantheon with the biggest names and instead is heading up the second tier. But, in terms of popularity and collectability, I think Romita is a solid A-lister, ahead of some who many would deem to be superior talents.

 

I think the terminology A-List is what it implies, meaning derived from the movie industry and therefore rooted in APPEAL. To say that the guy that drew the most iconic (to the general public) run, on one of the, if not the, most iconic super-hero of all time is not am A-list comic artist is just a bit of comic snobbery, all respect and IMO.

 

A few movements aside, Adams, Romita, Kirby are the artists that rendered the images that resonate in the SA and early BA. That covers the big three (Superman, Batman, Spider-Man) in terms of images that are ingrained into the pop culture psyche for what those characters look like. You can sprinkle in EVERYONE ELSE ... Personally I love Wrightson and BWS, but that does not detract from my ability to understand that Adams, Kirby, Romita are the big three of comic book illustrating during the period in question.

[jbud73]

speaking of the SECONDARY ART MARKET people are talking about.......

 

If Romita is only great because he drew SPIDERMAN (as a few people are saying) then why do I get more requests for art pages with MARY JANE and GWEN on them than I do for Spiderman action pages? AND these "GIRL" pages are similar in value....( slightly lower in value..but close.....even at auction)

 

here is a pretty good question for the list............

 

PLEASE tell me "1" Pen and ink super hero COMIC BOOK artist who can say that their "character" pages are as sought after by collectors as their hero battle pages? just one!

 

Romita made AMAZING SPIDERMAN into the greatest soap opera in comics and its because he draws woman so beautifully in pen and ink.......

 

maybe i'm forgetting another artist or 2 but I can not think of any artist and any title from the silver or bronze age that can say this. again if I forgot something then I will stand corrected.

 

also...... Dave Stevens of frank Frazetta to me are amazing...but......neither of them drew super heroes (unless you count Rocketeer) and Dave Stevens created a very very small amount of pen and ink super hero work in his career and frank Frazetta is a god but there is not alot of his pen and ink COMIC BOOK work out there as he of course is known mostly for his amazing paintings and women...but he never drew superhero comics really.

 

so in summary..my question to the list is....how many comic book artists out there do they know where an artists CHARACTER pages are as sought after as their superhero action pages?

 

I can only think of one............JOHN ROMITA!

 

and again... we obviously can all agree to disagree on such a subjective subject as what we are talking about...

 

if someone thinks Romita ASM art sucks...it doesn't bother me a bit.........but I'll always make my points why I feel the other guy is mistaken.

 

and I gotta say.......I actually got made fun of by many of the dealers and higher end collectors in our hobby when i first started collecting.....when they found out in 1989-90 that I was the guy collecting ROMITA Spiderman art....

 

Mike

Or you could have just said he drew ASM from 39-122 (i know a few Kane covers aside), and drop the Mike [sic], pun intended.

[Unca Ben]

speaking of the SECONDARY ART MARKET people are talking about.......

 

If Romita is only great because he drew SPIDERMAN (as a few people are saying) then why do I get more requests for art pages with MARY JANE and GWEN on them than I do for Spiderman action pages? AND these "GIRL" pages are similar in value....( slightly lower in value..but close.....even at auction)

 

here is a pretty good question for the list............

 

PLEASE tell me "1" Pen and ink super hero COMIC BOOK artist who can say that their "character" pages are as sought after by collectors as their hero battle pages? just one!

 

Romita made AMAZING SPIDERMAN into the greatest soap opera in comics and its because he draws woman so beautifully in pen and ink.......

 

maybe i'm forgetting another artist or 2 but I can not think of any artist and any title from the silver or bronze age that can say this. again if I forgot something then I will stand corrected.

 

also...... Dave Stevens of frank Frazetta to me are amazing...but......neither of them drew super heroes (unless you count Rocketeer) and Dave Stevens created a very very small amount of pen and ink super hero work in his career and frank Frazetta is a god but there is not alot of his pen and ink COMIC BOOK work out there as he of course is known mostly for his amazing paintings and women...but he never drew superhero comics really.

 

so in summary..my question to the list is....how many comic book artists out there do they know where an artists CHARACTER pages are as sought after as their superhero action pages?

 

I can only think of one............JOHN ROMITA!

 

and again... we obviously can all agree to disagree on such a subjective subject as what we are talking about...

 

if someone thinks Romita ASM art sucks...it doesn't bother me a bit.........but I'll always make my points why I feel the other guy is mistaken.

 

and I gotta say.......I actually got made fun of by many of the dealers and higher end collectors in our hobby when i first started collecting.....when they found out in 1989-90 that I was the guy collecting ROMITA Spiderman art....

 

Mike

Or you could have just said he drew ASM from 39-122 (i know a few Kane covers aside), and drop the Mike [sic], pun intended.

 

Romita did full pencils on 39-56, 64 & 65, 67, 74 & 75, 82 & 83, 86-88, 93-95, 106-119.

 

Co-pencilled with Don Heck 57-63 & 66.

Co-pencilled with Jim Mooney 68-71.

Co-pencilled with John Buscema 72 & 73, 84 & 85,

 

John Buscema pencilled 76-81.

Gil Kane pencilled 89-92, 96 & 97 w/ Romita inks.

Kane pencilled 98-105, 120-122.

 

edit:

[RICKYBOBBY]

speaking of the SECONDARY ART MARKET people are talking about.......

 

If Romita is only great because he drew SPIDERMAN (as a few people are saying) then why do I get more requests for art pages with MARY JANE and GWEN on them than I do for Spiderman action pages? AND these "GIRL" pages are similar in value....( slightly lower in value..but close.....even at auction)

 

here is a pretty good question for the list............

 

PLEASE tell me "1" Pen and ink super hero COMIC BOOK artist who can say that their "character" pages are as sought after by collectors as their hero battle pages? just one!

 

Romita made AMAZING SPIDERMAN into the greatest soap opera in comics and its because he draws woman so beautifully in pen and ink.......

 

maybe i'm forgetting another artist or 2 but I can not think of any artist and any title from the silver or bronze age that can say this. again if I forgot something then I will stand corrected.

 

also...... Dave Stevens of frank Frazetta to me are amazing...but......neither of them drew super heroes (unless you count Rocketeer) and Dave Stevens created a very very small amount of pen and ink super hero work in his career and frank Frazetta is a god but there is not alot of his pen and ink COMIC BOOK work out there as he of course is known mostly for his amazing paintings and women...but he never drew superhero comics really.

 

so in summary..my question to the list is....how many comic book artists out there do they know where an artists CHARACTER pages are as sought after as their superhero action pages?

 

I can only think of one............JOHN ROMITA!

 

and again... we obviously can all agree to disagree on such a subjective subject as what we are talking about...

 

if someone thinks Romita ASM art sucks...it doesn't bother me a bit.........but I'll always make my points why I feel the other guy is mistaken.

 

and I gotta say.......I actually got made fun of by many of the dealers and higher end collectors in our hobby when i first started collecting.....when they found out in 1989-90 that I was the guy collecting ROMITA Spiderman art....

 

Mike

Or you could have just said he drew ASM from 39-122 (i know a few Kane covers aside), and drop the Mike [sic], pun intended.

 

Romita did full pencils on 39-56, 64 & 65, 67, 74 & 75, 82 & 83, 86-88, 93-95, 106-119.

 

Co-pencilled with Don Heck 57-63 & 66.

Co-pencilled with Jim Mooney 68-71.

Co-pencilled with John Buscema 72 & 73, 84 & 85,

 

John Buscema pencilled 76-81.

Gil Kane pencilled 89-92, 96 & 97 w/ Romita inks.

Kane pencilled 98-105, 120-122.

 

edit:

 

 

I think Romita penciled 68-71.. I really don't see Mooney in those issues. Don't know why the credits are the way they are.