2016 November 17 - 18 Comics Signature Auction - Beverely Hills

[delekkerste]

well said...in 2010/2011 the largest carl barks art collection sold thru HA.com and it bought a lot interest to the barks market and does not help that you have two BIG fish in the market keeping the best of the best with Theo with about 29 of the best oils and Carl..he has his own painting website with about 20. so the super good stuff is locked up.....and needs to get out there, but Gene things have a way of coming back in favor over time..I have seen this over my 50 plus yeas of collecting..batman at one time went out of favor, superman was in,now it the other way...I see the market coming back but it needs a push...good comments thanks...

 

Thanks, Mitch. I agree that things can definitely come back in favor over time...though they can also end up in the dustbin of history as well. For example, the Western genre seems to come back en vogue every now and again, though never reaching its previous heights. Similarly, the hey-day of swords & sorcery fantasy also seems to have peaked in the '80s with the D&D craze, the popularity of fantasy art & paperbacks, and, most importantly, the avalanche of S&S and related Hollywood properties in that decade (e.g., the Conan films, Dragonslayer, Beastmaster, The Sword and the Sorcerer, Red Sonja, Excalibur, Fire & Ice, Thundarr the Barbarian, etc.). One can argue that MTG and Xena were even bigger in the '90s, but, as a far-reaching cultural phenomenon, the genre definitely has never regained the peaks of the '80s (yes, Frazetta prices are at all-time highs...but his popularity as an artist peaked in the '80s and the buyers today are overwhelmingly those who were exposed to his work back then, or at least are of the generation that grew up with the received orthodoxy that Frazetta represents the pinnacle of OA). Of course, many individual pulp characters, comic strips, TV/film creations, etc. of yesteryear have also fallen by the wayside.

 

I'm not going to hazard a guess as to what happens to the Barks market, or the broader illustration & pin-up markets, going forward. I'm certainly hopeful that some of the niche things that I like will come back into popularity, but I am also cognizant that there's no guarantee that future generations will take to the stuff that we enjoy in the numbers or with the enthusiasm (and open wallets) that we did.

[comix4fun]

What I gathered from this thread is that pervy underground art got people hard while most but not all other pieces were soft and flaccid.

 

 

I got for making a single Wood comment.

 

Man, are you gonna get it now.

[Doc Joe]

Not being familiar with Eric Sack before this...did he just do underground or does he have an extensive collection of more traditional art???

[suspense39]

He had a website with most of his collection on it, I was going to post a link but it seems to be taken down. From what I remember it was almost all underground, with very few mainstream pages.

[delekkerste]

He had a website with most of his collection on it, I was going to post a link but it seems to be taken down. From what I remember it was almost all underground, with very few mainstream pages.

 

Sack had other UG art that was on display at the Society of Illustrators Zap Comix retrospective earlier this year which he co-curated (from my records, an unused Zap Comix #1 cover, an unused Zap #3 cover, and another unused Zap cover were among the pieces displayed that were from his collection that I don't think were in this auction). Wonder if he decided to hold on to these pieces, if we'll see them in an upcoming auction, or if they were sold privately separate from the pieces that made it into the catalog (if they were, no points on guessing who the buyer would be).

[Doc Joe]

Isn't there more to come on HA? I thought this was just round 1 of underground

[Mephisto]

What I gathered from this thread is that pervy underground art got people hard while most but not all other pieces were soft and flaccid.

 

 

I got for making a single Wood comment.

 

Man, are you gonna get it now.

 

Now they are talking about Sack in this thread Chris!

[50 Cent #II (1st)]

He had a website with most of his collection on it, I was going to post a link but it seems to be taken down. From what I remember it was almost all underground, with very few mainstream pages.

 

His site was/is Lines on Paper, I looked at it last week so it's sad if it's no longer online anymore. To be honest, he had posted a few times in the old Underground Comix forums rarely, that's how I recognized his website, but I, and I believe, most UG collectors had no idea of his vast size of his collection, or that someone had put together such an incredible collection. Honestly feel it's unlikely anyone will ever be able to put together a collection near what he attained. Through Arnie (probably the biggest name in Underground Comix dealers) I'm aware that "The Good Doctor of the Mid-West" has by far the largest collection of Underground Comix, Arnie's collection is supposed to be pretty impressive, but he says it's nothing compared. The Good Dr.'s been collecting for decades with his brother and when his brother got out of Undergrounds, he incorporated his brothers collection into his. When the Graham Nash collection went up to sale, I told the seller to contact The Good Dr., who ended up buying much of the nicer items, including the ones I was interested in. C'est La Vie. There's another collector that has a pretty nice collection referred to "The Dentist" in San Francisco area (wonder if this could be Sack?), but I believe he's been pretty quiet for the last few years. But these are comix and not original art, I'm unaware of these collectors original art collection. Over the last decade, I've put together a rather large collection of Underground Comix, but this is only in terms of number or comix as in volume, but by no means in value (although there's a couple ultra-rare items I'm rather proud about that only a few others may have in their collection). Probably have about 15 long boxes of Undergrounds and perhaps about 20 mag. boxes, these are just Underground and related, not mainstream comics, while not a giant load of comics to those with massive mainstream collections, for UG it's impressive considering there's only about 2,500 titles listed in the Kennedy guide. Goes to show that there seems to be a small group of Undergrounds collectors out there, but there seem to be a couple with a shockingly impressive collection.

 

Yes, there's supposed to be more of Sack's collection in future HA auctions. I suspect that since only a few actual comix were listed, that Sack hasn't let go of his probable vast underground comix collection, if he collected one.

[suspense39]

He had a website with most of his collection on it, I was going to post a link but it seems to be taken down. From what I remember it was almost all underground, with very few mainstream pages.

 

Sack had other UG art that was on display at the Society of Illustrators Zap Comix retrospective earlier this year which he co-curated (from my records, an unused Zap Comix #1 cover, an unused Zap #3 cover, and another unused Zap cover were among the pieces displayed that were from his collection that I don't think were in this auction). Wonder if he decided to hold on to these pieces, if we'll see them in an upcoming auction, or if they were sold privately separate from the pieces that made it into the catalog (if they were, no points on guessing who the buyer would be).

 

Here's a brief article on his collection and the auction

 

https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/2016/11/15/massive-art-collection-full-of-sf-underground-comix-up-for-auction/

[suspense39]

He had a website with most of his collection on it, I was going to post a link but it seems to be taken down. From what I remember it was almost all underground, with very few mainstream pages.

 

His site was/is Lines on Paper, I looked at it last week so it's sad if it's no longer online anymore. To be honest, he had posted a few times in the old Underground Comix forums rarely, that's how I recognized his website, but I, and I believe, most UG collectors had no idea of his vast size of his collection, or that someone had put together such an incredible collection. Honestly feel it's unlikely anyone will ever be able to put together a collection near what he attained. Through Arnie (probably the biggest name in Underground Comix dealers) I'm aware that "The Good Doctor of the Mid-West" has by far the largest collection of Underground Comix, Arnie's collection is supposed to be pretty impressive, but he says it's nothing compared. The Good Dr.'s been collecting for decades with his brother and when his brother got out of Undergrounds, he incorporated his brothers collection into his. When the Graham Nash collection went up to sale, I told the seller to contact The Good Dr., who ended up buying much of the nicer items, including the ones I was interested in. C'est La Vie. There's another collector that has a pretty nice collection referred to "The Dentist" in San Francisco area, but I believe he's been pretty quiet for the last few years. But these are comix and not original art, I'm unaware of these collectors original art collection. Over the last decade, I've put together a rather large collection of Underground Comix, but this is only in terms of number or comix as in volume, but by no means in value (although there's a couple ultra-rare items I'm rather proud about that only a few others may have in their collection). Probably have about 15 long boxes of Undergrounds and perhaps about 20 mag. boxes, these are just Underground and related, not mainstream comics. Goes to show that there seems to be a small group of Undergrounds collectors out there, but there seem to be a couple with a shockingly impressive collection.

 

Yes, there's supposed to be more of Sack's collection in future HA auctions. I suspect that since only a few actual comix were listed, that Sack hasn't let go of his probable vast underground comix collection, if he collected one.

 

Thanks for the info. I contacted Eric through the sight some years ago looking for some obscure underground artists, he was was very friendly in his response but couldn't point me in any direction.

[Columbia Comics]

So I have a question:

 

Lots of commenters are saying "with the exception to a piece here and there (and excluding the UG art), prices were softer than expected."

 

Think it has anything to do with the sheer size of the auction? I mean, bidding went well into the evening on Friday and Saturday.

 

I'm not sure of Thursday since I didn't pay attention...but I mean, it would seem to me that an 8+ hour auction per day wouldn't be in the consignors best interest.

 

Maybe if they accepted less items or spaced it out over more days???

 

Thoughts?

[tth2]

I would say the carl barks Persia painting going under 30K was the biggest shocker, it was sold without reserve and my estimate was 75K plus BP....way down..anybody have a explanation ?

Yeah, the explanation is that you're a terrible prognosticator.

 

As much as I love Carl Barks the comic book artist and writer, I think his paintings are terrible. Total kitsch. Maybe that's why you seem to like them so much.

[delekkerste]

Here's a brief article on his collection and the auction

 

https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/2016/11/15/massive-art-collection-full-of-sf-underground-comix-up-for-auction/

 

So, he's keeping 50 pieces.

 

Great article, with some illuminating quotes:

 

“Any collectible goes out of style after the people who experienced it in their own lives die out,” Rosenkranz says. “Who cares about Hopalong Cassidy anymore? But 20 years ago a Hopalong Cassidy collection could fetch a decent price.”

 

"Sack says he’ll miss his ritual of poring over his new purchases, examining each drawing for signs of the artist’s creative process, such as streaks of white out and doodles on the back. But his passion never rubbed off on his children, which Rosenkranz says is a common reason for Underground Comix collectors to sell.

 

“A lot of collectors are getting old and their kids don’t want the stuff — either they’re not interested, or they’re embarrassed by it, or they think it’s too dirty,” Rosenkranz says."

[Doc Joe]

Well there were not 1250 in that auction....

 

So ...exciting times ahead

[cstojano]

Here's a brief article on his collection and the auction

 

https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/2016/11/15/massive-art-collection-full-of-sf-underground-comix-up-for-auction/

 

So, he's keeping 50 pieces.

 

Great article, with some illuminating quotes:

 

“Any collectible goes out of style after the people who experienced it in their own lives die out,” Rosenkranz says. “Who cares about Hopalong Cassidy anymore? But 20 years ago a Hopalong Cassidy collection could fetch a decent price.”

 

"Sack says he’ll miss his ritual of poring over his new purchases, examining each drawing for signs of the artist’s creative process, such as streaks of white out and doodles on the back. But his passion never rubbed off on his children, which Rosenkranz says is a common reason for Underground Comix collectors to sell.

 

“A lot of collectors are getting old and their kids don’t want the stuff — either they’re not interested, or they’re embarrassed by it, or they think it’s too dirty,” Rosenkranz says."

 

An utterly depressing (yet likely realistic) article. I am shocked that even 20 years ago people cared about Hopalong Cassidy

 

I know this is a common point of discussion here and elsewhere online, but I do wonder what this kind of checking out does to a person. I mean, the money must be nice but it seems having some wealth is already part of the picture for many of these megacollectors. So you remove the passion for something you've had your whole life, money is likely a non-issue, then what? Babysit the grand kids, Winnebago, beach house in Fiji. I have a small, eclectic collection across various areas (though fantasy heavy which means I am dead in the water come 20 years) but can't imagine what I'd do with my time if this wasn't part of my life.

[delekkerste]

BTW, the Zap Comix retrospective had a number of pieces, like the published Zap #1 cover, that just said they were from a "Private collection". Not sure if Sack or Halperin or one of the other contributors to the show just didn't want to disclose that they owned this and other specific pieces, or, if there is another UG OA BSD out there that owns that cover and others? The show description said that the pieces on display came from the collections of Sack, Halperin, John Lautemann, Mark Parker, Scott Eder, Gilbert Shelton and Paul Mavrides.

 

[Will_K]

Here's a brief article on his collection and the auction

 

https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/2016/11/15/massive-art-collection-full-of-sf-underground-comix-up-for-auction/

 

So, he's keeping 50 pieces.

 

Great article, with some illuminating quotes:

 

“Any collectible goes out of style after the people who experienced it in their own lives die out,” Rosenkranz says. “Who cares about Hopalong Cassidy anymore? But 20 years ago a Hopalong Cassidy collection could fetch a decent price.”

 

"Sack says he’ll miss his ritual of poring over his new purchases, examining each drawing for signs of the artist’s creative process, such as streaks of white out and doodles on the back. But his passion never rubbed off on his children, which Rosenkranz says is a common reason for Underground Comix collectors to sell.

 

“A lot of collectors are getting old and their kids don’t want the stuff — either they’re not interested, or they’re embarrassed by it, or they think it’s too dirty,” Rosenkranz says."

 

Well, maybe a future "Mr Natural" movie will...

[vodou]

...but can't imagine what I'd do with my time if this wasn't part of my life.

Well nobody says you have to quit or sell out, though for the more modest income collectors it may not be a choice if things like medial expenses far exceed coverage and other savings. I suspect one can still keep up with things and follow the action with nearly the same pleasure even if no longer participating, also.

 

The other thing I've found in life, which I know is true for some others in various hobby circles I travel...sometimes being "done" just sneaks up on you and you know it's okay because you (for whatever reason) just don't care anymore. Ever have a girlfriend (boyfriend, even spouse, whatever) that was everything to you in the moment and then you wake up one day and 'wow I could really live without this person'. And a number of years later in hindsight...the whole thing was (will always be) fun at the time but a bit of a headscratcher as to 'forever and always'? Yeah times change and people do too. Sometimes it's just like that.

[delekkerste]

I know this is a common point of discussion here and elsewhere online, but I do wonder what this kind of checking out does to a person. I mean, the money must be nice but it seems having some wealth is already part of the picture for many of these megacollectors. So you remove the passion for something you've had your whole life, money is likely a non-issue, then what? Babysit the grand kids, Winnebago, beach house in Fiji. I have a small, eclectic collection across various areas (though fantasy heavy which means I am dead in the water come 20 years) but can't imagine what I'd do with my time if this wasn't part of my life.

 

Well, if you're a still relatively young billionaire like Marc Lasry (who's selling his prized comic collection in Comic Connect's current auction), presumably you've got more demands on your time and options to spend your money and enjoy your life than you know what to do with, so I doubt the comics are going to be missed much. If you're someone like Doc Dave, who sold his Frazetta collection at Profiles in History last year, it sounds like he's having a blast in his retirement years that he might not otherwise have been able to enjoy had he not liquidated his collection. If you're Frank Darabont, depending on who you talk to, he either needed the money or he didn't (but, either way, he sold his OA collection this year despite being several years short of age 60).

 

There are a few guys in the hobby who love this material more than anything in the world and I'm sure will be holding onto their collections until the bitter end, even though if they sold out, they'd have enough cash to do pretty much anything else they wanted. But, to them, not having the art just wouldn't be worth it. I suspect there are some others who of course love the art, but love other things too - but, to them, selling out/selling down would compromise both their position in the hobby and their self-identity; they'd be a bit at a loss if they sold, I think. It's easier to own millions of dollars of artwork if you love it, it's what you always wanted and you have people sucking your kneecaps all the time as a result; it's not as easy to have millions of dollars and not know what to do with it while missing the kneecap-sucking.

 

Most people, though, will likely sell down (if not out) at a time that's right for them. Even if they are otherwise well off in life, if the kids don't want it, well, there will come a time when the contrasting factors of enjoyment, monetary value, retirement planning and not wanting to leave it to the heirs to sort it out will lead people to sell. Like yourself, it's hard for me to envision this ever not being a big part of my life, though, are we all going to be bidding at Heritage, going to shows and spending loads of time on the Boards when we're, say, 75? For most of us, the answer is probably not, and most of us will have probably moved on to other things well before then.

 

 

The other thing I've found in life, which I know is true for some others in various hobby circles I travel...sometimes being "done" just sneaks up on you and you know it's okay because you (for whatever reason) just don't care anymore. Ever have a girlfriend (boyfriend, even spouse, whatever) that was everything to you in the moment and then you wake up one day and 'wow I could really live without this person'. And a number of years later in hindsight...the whole thing was (will always be) fun at the time but a bit of a headscratcher as to 'forever and always'? Yeah times change and people do too. Sometimes it's just like that.

 

#Truth

 

Also, I agree that you don't necessarily have to be buying constantly to still be involved in the hobby. I know guys that turn up at shows for the camaraderie and just to take it all in, despite not being very active in the hobby anymore.

[Bronty]

Isn't there more to come on HA? I thought this was just round 1 of underground

 

I was under the impression there would be 3-4 rounds.

 

I was also under the impression the auction grossed over 10m. I'm not sure there's been a single larger comics auction? So calling it weak is not the way I'd look at it - the money was shifted over away from the mainstream art.