Marvel has lost its way

[dupont2005]

Once they get rid of the hard copies, do you think your digitals will still be as cheap?

I can't think of a time in history that a format has ever gotten more expensive the more popular it got.

 

Except floppy comics of course.

 

But anyway, VHS tapes, DVD's, CD's, all used to cost an arm and a leg, and then they cost essentially nothing.

 

As far as digital media is concerned, since no one distributor could possibly have a monopoly, I don't see how the prices could become anything but more competitive. I don't care if Spiderman is your favorite character or not, if a digital issue of ASM is $15 and a digital issue of any Valiant comic is a dollar, Valiant is going to take over. Reason being is digital has no speculative buying. Nobody is going to buy an issue because it might be worth money, nobody is buying two copies, or a dozen copies, because they have a different cover. Nobody is buying one to read and one to slab. It's just being sold on the merit of it's contents, and that's it. I personally think this is a big fear of the Big Two, who have relied on speculators and completionists for half a century almost. They'll no longer tie up a retailers budget and display space with tie ins and events, pushing out the competitors. It costs a digital retailer nothing to stock everything, and give everything equal billing in their search feature and sidebar. It spells opportunity to smaller publishers who couldn't meet Diamond's minimums but now can have international distribution alongside the big guys, but it's not a preferable situation for the dominant publishers. Their muscle means nothing. Even if they could muscle out the competition from the Comixology marketplace, someone would just develop an identical app and open a new marketplace, and to the consumer it's as easy as clicking a button to get access to the competitors content. It wouldn't require a drive to a different shop, calling shops out of town, shopping online, ect. There will still be value in digital distributors who curate their content somewhat, because there's already a few "small press" digital distributors that offer 99.9% garbage, so nobody wants to root through that to find the good stuff. But a retailer who curated good stuff and offered it at a decent price would do better than a retailer who curated good stuff and hiked the price up obscenely. You'll see a drift away from character loyalty with digital, and publishers will find licenses are less valuable, good creators are more valuable.

[Prince Namor]

Wouldn't it be great if the popularity and success of comics was because they were good and not because people thought they might eventually be worth something?

[aerischan]

As far as digital media is concerned, since no one distributor could possibly have a monopoly, I don't see how the prices could become anything but more competitive. I don't care if Spiderman is your favorite character or not, if a digital issue of ASM is $15 and a digital issue of any Valiant comic is a dollar, Valiant is going to take over. Reason being is digital has no speculative buying. Nobody is going to buy an issue because it might be worth money, nobody is buying two copies, or a dozen copies, because they have a different cover. Nobody is buying one to read and one to slab. It's just being sold on the merit of it's contents, and that's it. I personally think this is a big fear of the Big Two, who have relied on speculators and completionists for half a century almost. They'll no longer tie up a retailers budget and display space with tie ins and events, pushing out the competitors. It costs a digital retailer nothing to stock everything, and give everything equal billing in their search feature and sidebar. It spells opportunity to smaller publishers who couldn't meet Diamond's minimums but now can have international distribution alongside the big guys, but it's not a preferable situation for the dominant publishers. Their muscle means nothing. Even if they could muscle out the competition from the Comixology marketplace, someone would just develop an identical app and open a new marketplace, and to the consumer it's as easy as clicking a button to get access to the competitors content. It wouldn't require a drive to a different shop, calling shops out of town, shopping online, ect. There will still be value in digital distributors who curate their content somewhat, because there's already a few "small press" digital distributors that offer 99.9% garbage, so nobody wants to root through that to find the good stuff. But a retailer who curated good stuff and offered it at a decent price would do better than a retailer who curated good stuff and hiked the price up obscenely. You'll see a drift away from character loyalty with digital, and publishers will find licenses are less valuable, good creators are more valuable.

Amen. Big 2 muscling out competition from Comixology? Given Amazon's pretty big and Comixology is the clear market leader for pay per title/issue, I think it'll be interesting to see what happens if/when Amazon/Comixology and the Mouse ever clash.

 

Wouldn't it be great if the popularity and success of comics was because they were good and not because people thought they might eventually be worth something?

+1. Honestly, I wasn't even aware of the CGC and comic speculating until I came to this board. I don't think there's anything similar for manga.

 

That said, for some of the obscure manga with small print runs, I have seen some resell for pretty high prices due to natural supply and demand. Prior to the release of ebook versions, I had a few volumes that went out of print that I saw selling for $100-200 2-3 years later on eBay auctions. MSRP was $9.99 and I only paid $6.49-7.49 for my copies since I always pre-ordered. I always got 2 copies (one for reading and one to keep in pristine condition, just a quirk of mine) and it was tempting to sell the in demand volumes from the extra set (I didn't). I think it's great there are now digital versions available so everyone can enjoy comics/manga at reasonable cost particularly for back catalog, obscure and niche titles where an extra print run would have been cost prohibitive.

 

I'm a big fan of the 90s DC and Marvel cartoons but I never got into comics as they were just confusing for the uninitiated not to mention expensive. I mean where does one even start? Nowadays, the breadth of new releases has made things even more confusing. This is why I'm a big fan of Marvel Unlimited. I tried to read the entire Civil War crossover in Marvel recommended reading order and a lot of it was just filler . Thank goodness I wasn't paying for individual issues. It's pretty awesome being able to read back issues without needing to spend a gazillion bucks (assuming one is able to find it for sale).

 

Mind, I find it very interesting to see the prices in back issues. Daredevil #81 (1971, Bronze Age?) was just $0.25. I plugged in the numbers on an inflation calculator and inflation-adjusted value is $1.49 in 2016 dollars. Cumulative inflation rate was 494.7%.

[VintageComics]

There's a difference between being a fan and a collector.

Exactly.

And it's silly (in my mind) to think "comic book collector" doesn't extend to digital.

 

Someone who collects a wide variety of digital-offerings could possibly be more involved with the artform than, say, someone heavily invested in CGC'd comics.

 

Right? Just think of iPads and Androids as Slabs with zoom-in features and viewable pages..

 

You bring up an interesting conundrum that didn't exist before the digital age.

 

Is it collecting if someone is simply collecting digital copies? You can't smell them ,touch them, feel the differences (each age used different paper and inks).

It might be collecting in a newer sense (much like collecting pics from the internet might be) but I can also see how it isn't in the 'old' sense. It's much like collecting reprints IMO.

The "interesting conundrum" I'm hinting at is this...

 

"Is it collecting if someone is simply collecting digital CGC'd copies? You can't smell them ,touch them, feel the differences. (unless you crack them out, ruining the cert.)

 

Right? So, hypothetically, someone could own a warehouse full of encapsulated comics and never physically touch one.

 

That was my main point. That "digital" isn't "less than" anything when it comes to collecting comic books. And maybe "more" since digital is 'consumable' in the traditional sense.

 

You're still collecting a physical thing with encapsulated books.

 

With digital, you're collecting bits and bytes.

 

So again, while technically they are collecting stories, they're not collecting the medium that the stories were printed on.

 

If someone collected xeroxes, you could technically say they were collecting things but nobody would consider it a real form of collecting.

 

As I said, the digital world brings a new angle to collecting.

[Unca Ben]

Wouldn't it be great if the popularity and success of comics was because they were good and not because people thought they might eventually be worth something?

 

Heresy!

[aerischan]

Rereading the thread, I didn't notice mention of what I think is one of Marvel's most egregious atrocity for December 2016 Previews: 50+ variant covers for U.S.Avengers.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Comixology Unlimited for $4.99 a month is awesome as well.

I am having a blast reading GI Joe,Valiant,Dark Horse and Image.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Wouldn't it be great if the popularity and success of comics was because they were good and not because people thought they might eventually be worth something?

That's how The Walking Dead got popular. Great stories.

[Buzzetta]

Comixology Unlimited for $4.99 a month is awesome as well.

I am having a blast reading GI Joe,Valiant,Dark Horse and Image.

 

 

That's not bad for $50 a year. I may have to look into that. I am still picking up a couple of Valiant titles a month and actually miss reading a couple of titles that I drop. I may do that just for Valiant and to go back and read GI Joe starting from 155 1/2.

 

Can I do a two month subscription? I would binge read twice a year.

[rjrjr]

Once they get rid of the hard copies, do you think your digitals will still be as cheap?

I can't think of a time in history that a format has ever gotten more expensive the more popular it got.

 

Except floppy comics of course.

 

 

Have comics gotten more popular though? Are unit sales up or just overall dollars because of higher prices?

 

As for digital, there is no way any corporation will lower prices such that their revenue goes down. The largest cost in comics is the creators. That doesn't change if the comic is sold digitally or physically. If digital sales start eating into physical sales, we'll see the digital prices go up to offset the loss in revenue. Until then, I don't see much of a change in pricing.

[romanheart]

Once they get rid of the hard copies, do you think your digitals will still be as cheap?

I can't think of a time in history that a format has ever gotten more expensive the more popular it got.

 

Except floppy comics of course.

 

 

Have comics gotten more popular though? Are unit sales up or just overall dollars because of higher prices?

 

As for digital, there is no way any corporation will lower prices such that their revenue goes down. The largest cost in comics is the creators. That doesn't change if the comic is sold digitally or physically. If digital sales start eating into physical sales, we'll see the digital prices go up to offset the loss in revenue. Until then, I don't see much of a change in pricing.

 

close to 90's levels apparently although I think speculators are driving up those numbers. The latest Harley Quinn Rebirth 1 sold over 400K copies.

[ygogolak]

Once they get rid of the hard copies, do you think your digitals will still be as cheap?

I can't think of a time in history that a format has ever gotten more expensive the more popular it got.

 

Except floppy comics of course.

 

 

Have comics gotten more popular though? Are unit sales up or just overall dollars because of higher prices?

 

As for digital, there is no way any corporation will lower prices such that their revenue goes down. The largest cost in comics is the creators. That doesn't change if the comic is sold digitally or physically. If digital sales start eating into physical sales, we'll see the digital prices go up to offset the loss in revenue. Until then, I don't see much of a change in pricing.

 

close to 90's levels apparently although I think speculators are driving up those numbers. The latest Harley Quinn Rebirth 1 sold over 400K copies.

 

Isn't that what happened in the 90's that you are comparing to?

[aerischan]

If digital sales start eating into physical sales, we'll see the digital prices go up to offset the loss in revenue. Until then, I don't see much of a change in pricing.

You know, I actually do wonder about this. How much revenue net of costs do publishers actually realize off printed monthly periodicals?

 

When I preorder from LCS, I get a 35% discount so I usually only pay $1.95-2.59 for a $2.99-3.99 issue. How much of that goes to the LCS, Diamond and the publisher? Also, what about printing and warehousing costs?

 

Assuming digital comics follow the same agency pricing as Apple's, I believe the standard cut is 70% for the publisher and 30% for the distribution platform (Comixology, iBooks, Kindle, Nook, etc). If a digital comic is on sale for $0.99 (typically older back issues), then the publisher gets to pocket $0.69. Newer releases usually go on sale for just 50% off so around $1.99 and the publisher gets $1.39. For now, you can't resell digital so there's also no used copies to eat into sales of new copies.

 

Way I see it, digital is a threat to LCS and Diamond. Not so much for publishers.

[BCarter27]

 

 

What companies plan, and what happens, often don't jive. Like here. Marvels market share has plummeted. There are no new readers coming in.

Marvel hasn't lost sales, it's just that DC gained sales. Not readers, sales. People who had five book on their pull list now have 25. It will get back to where it was just like it did when the New 52 launched and became the New 51 and the new 48 as titles got cancelled. And when you look beyond the direct market, they're both losing marketshare in staggering numbers. Bookscan, NYT, Amazon, and B&N bestseller lists have far different demographics than Diamond and the local comic shop.

 

Where do you think young readers are going to buy their comics, the weird nerd hole 30 miles from home with the angry shop owner and the overpriced merchandise, or the bookstore in the mall, Amazon, their Kindle marketplace?

 

One of the biggest markets for comics, believe it or not, is school book fairs, which is why Scholastic is KILLING the big two on the NYT bestseller list. On any given week, half that list will be books by Raina Telgemeier, and it's been that way for about five years. Marvel might pop up once or twice a year on the list, DC might have one or two titles a month on it. She dominates the top five 52 weeks out of the year. And yet she's never been on the Diamond top 300.

 

Marvel isn't doing anything DC isn't doing, which is a problem in itself, but it pretty much means Marvel's loss of marketshare is due to DC's Rebirth having taken place just recently and not because Cap said Hail Hydra. Belive me, when Marvel puts a shiny new #1 on 80 titles for two months in a row, their marketshare in the direct market will be back to where it always was. And believe me, they already got the next reboot scheduled.

 

It won't bring in any new readers, but it will make the ever shrinking pool of current readers add more titles to their pull list, which is what the real cause of these sales bumps is.

 

If they wanted to actually bring in new readers, Iron Man should be all ages friendly, be a 100 page prestige bound magazine for $6.99, and be available in toy stores, book stores, book fairs, Wal Mart checkout lanes, and in vending machines at the movie theater where 60 million people lined up to watch the movie.

 

 

Terrific post! Someone should send this to every publisher and sales manager in the field.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Comixology Unlimited for $4.99 a month is awesome as well.

I am having a blast reading GI Joe,Valiant,Dark Horse and Image.

 

 

That's not bad for $50 a year. I may have to look into that. I am still picking up a couple of Valiant titles a month and actually miss reading a couple of titles that I drop. I may do that just for Valiant and to go back and read GI Joe starting from 155 1/2.

 

Can I do a two month subscription? I would binge read twice a year.

The first month is a free trial,than in the second month they charge you the $4.99. Really compliments the Marvel Unlimited $9.99. You got to think Comixology is owned by Amazon,so you are getting high quality.

I am reading more comics than ever now.

What I found out is moderns are very very good,especially the modern Image and Valiant stuff!

[ComicConnoisseur]

 

What companies plan, and what happens, often don't jive. Like here. Marvels market share has plummeted. There are no new readers coming in.

Marvel hasn't lost sales, it's just that DC gained sales. Not readers, sales. People who had five book on their pull list now have 25. It will get back to where it was just like it did when the New 52 launched and became the New 51 and the new 48 as titles got cancelled. And when you look beyond the direct market, they're both losing marketshare in staggering numbers. Bookscan, NYT, Amazon, and B&N bestseller lists have far different demographics than Diamond and the local comic shop.

 

Where do you think young readers are going to buy their comics, the weird nerd hole 30 miles from home with the angry shop owner and the overpriced merchandise, or the bookstore in the mall, Amazon, their Kindle marketplace?

 

One of the biggest markets for comics, believe it or not, is school book fairs, which is why Scholastic is KILLING the big two on the NYT bestseller list. On any given week, half that list will be books by Raina Telgemeier, and it's been that way for about five years. Marvel might pop up once or twice a year on the list, DC might have one or two titles a month on it. She dominates the top five 52 weeks out of the year. And yet she's never been on the Diamond top 300.

 

Marvel isn't doing anything DC isn't doing, which is a problem in itself, but it pretty much means Marvel's loss of marketshare is due to DC's Rebirth having taken place just recently and not because Cap said Hail Hydra. Belive me, when Marvel puts a shiny new #1 on 80 titles for two months in a row, their marketshare in the direct market will be back to where it always was. And believe me, they already got the next reboot scheduled.

 

It won't bring in any new readers, but it will make the ever shrinking pool of current readers add more titles to their pull list, which is what the real cause of these sales bumps is.

 

If they wanted to actually bring in new readers, Iron Man should be all ages friendly, be a 100 page prestige bound magazine for $6.99, and be available in toy stores, book stores, book fairs, Wal Mart checkout lanes, and in vending machines at the movie theater where 60 million people lined up to watch the movie.

 

 

Terrific post! Someone should send this to every publisher and sales manager in the field.

I agree. Dupont has some real good ideas.

[revat]

 

What companies plan, and what happens, often don't jive. Like here. Marvels market share has plummeted. There are no new readers coming in.

Marvel hasn't lost sales, it's just that DC gained sales. Not readers, sales. People who had five book on their pull list now have 25. It will get back to where it was just like it did when the New 52 launched and became the New 51 and the new 48 as titles got cancelled. And when you look beyond the direct market, they're both losing marketshare in staggering numbers. Bookscan, NYT, Amazon, and B&N bestseller lists have far different demographics than Diamond and the local comic shop.

 

Where do you think young readers are going to buy their comics, the weird nerd hole 30 miles from home with the angry shop owner and the overpriced merchandise, or the bookstore in the mall, Amazon, their Kindle marketplace?

 

One of the biggest markets for comics, believe it or not, is school book fairs, which is why Scholastic is KILLING the big two on the NYT bestseller list. On any given week, half that list will be books by Raina Telgemeier, and it's been that way for about five years. Marvel might pop up once or twice a year on the list, DC might have one or two titles a month on it. She dominates the top five 52 weeks out of the year. And yet she's never been on the Diamond top 300.

 

Marvel isn't doing anything DC isn't doing, which is a problem in itself, but it pretty much means Marvel's loss of marketshare is due to DC's Rebirth having taken place just recently and not because Cap said Hail Hydra. Belive me, when Marvel puts a shiny new #1 on 80 titles for two months in a row, their marketshare in the direct market will be back to where it always was. And believe me, they already got the next reboot scheduled.

 

It won't bring in any new readers, but it will make the ever shrinking pool of current readers add more titles to their pull list, which is what the real cause of these sales bumps is.

 

If they wanted to actually bring in new readers, Iron Man should be all ages friendly, be a 100 page prestige bound magazine for $6.99, and be available in toy stores, book stores, book fairs, Wal Mart checkout lanes, and in vending machines at the movie theater where 60 million people lined up to watch the movie.

 

 

Terrific post! Someone should send this to every publisher and sales manager in the field.

I agree. Dupont has some real good ideas.

 

I've always wondered why movie theatre's don't sell some merch, make it limited or something so they don't get stuck with overstock.

[Doktor]

 

What companies plan, and what happens, often don't jive. Like here. Marvels market share has plummeted. There are no new readers coming in.

Marvel hasn't lost sales, it's just that DC gained sales. Not readers, sales. People who had five book on their pull list now have 25. It will get back to where it was just like it did when the New 52 launched and became the New 51 and the new 48 as titles got cancelled. And when you look beyond the direct market, they're both losing marketshare in staggering numbers. Bookscan, NYT, Amazon, and B&N bestseller lists have far different demographics than Diamond and the local comic shop.

 

Where do you think young readers are going to buy their comics, the weird nerd hole 30 miles from home with the angry shop owner and the overpriced merchandise, or the bookstore in the mall, Amazon, their Kindle marketplace?

 

One of the biggest markets for comics, believe it or not, is school book fairs, which is why Scholastic is KILLING the big two on the NYT bestseller list. On any given week, half that list will be books by Raina Telgemeier, and it's been that way for about five years. Marvel might pop up once or twice a year on the list, DC might have one or two titles a month on it. She dominates the top five 52 weeks out of the year. And yet she's never been on the Diamond top 300.

 

Marvel isn't doing anything DC isn't doing, which is a problem in itself, but it pretty much means Marvel's loss of marketshare is due to DC's Rebirth having taken place just recently and not because Cap said Hail Hydra. Belive me, when Marvel puts a shiny new #1 on 80 titles for two months in a row, their marketshare in the direct market will be back to where it always was. And believe me, they already got the next reboot scheduled.

 

It won't bring in any new readers, but it will make the ever shrinking pool of current readers add more titles to their pull list, which is what the real cause of these sales bumps is.

 

If they wanted to actually bring in new readers, Iron Man should be all ages friendly, be a 100 page prestige bound magazine for $6.99, and be available in toy stores, book stores, book fairs, Wal Mart checkout lanes, and in vending machines at the movie theater where 60 million people lined up to watch the movie.

 

 

Terrific post! Someone should send this to every publisher and sales manager in the field.

I agree. Dupont has some real good ideas.

 

I've always wondered why movie theatre's don't sell some merch, make it limited or something so they don't get stuck with overstock.

 

Probably because people are more likely to buy that merch pre-movie, during the hype stage, than they are to buy post-movie. So now the viewer has an extra bag of to carry with them into a movie theater that is already somewhat cramped (unless you have VIP seating with the big cushy chairs & stuff), store it during the movie somewhere other than the sticky floor, and then try not to forget it after the movie. All while trying to keep track of 0-3 kids, and balance a giant bag of popcorn and a soda at the same time.

 

And if the movie sucks & people are disappointed, they're returning the same thing they just bought 3 hours later & you're dealing with a boatload of returns before the customer has even taken the product out of the building.

[aerischan]

Probably because people are more likely to buy that merch pre-movie, during the hype stage, than they are to buy post-movie. So now the viewer has an extra bag of to carry with them into a movie theater that is already somewhat cramped (unless you have VIP seating with the big cushy chairs & stuff), store it during the movie somewhere other than the sticky floor, and then try not to forget it after the movie. All while trying to keep track of 0-3 kids, and balance a giant bag of popcorn and a soda at the same time.

 

And if the movie sucks & people are disappointed, they're returning the same thing they just bought 3 hours later & you're dealing with a boatload of returns before the customer has even taken the product out of the building.

Maybe depends on the merch and target market? Watched Angry Birds with nieces and nephew in a theater that was inside a mall (Asia). Right by the cinema exit for Angry Birds, they had a booth selling Angry Birds toys cash only (kinda reminds me of Disney and Universal gift shops by an attraction's exit). Needless to say, the kids all got some toys after the movie (around $3-5 each).

 

Don't really see it working for high end collectibles, though.

[Buzzetta]

Just received a notification from Amazon that reading comics is now included in my Amazon Prime account. I do not know what that is all about though but will check out specifics next week. That would be amazing if the comixology subscription is included... but I doubt it would go that far.