Marvel has lost its way

[herc2000]

I don't see digital comics as a threat of physical. I thought it was a very small possibility a few years ago but now overall, it seems to bring more people into the comic book store.

 

On occasion I buy an issue like Walking Dead because I can read it before the comic store gets it and I don't have to worry about damaging my copy. I'm all for digital.

 

Make it digital first, to try and get people away from buying hard copies from the stores ;-( that's the game plan in my opinion.

 

Maybe I'm wrong?

[fett]

No of course not, but take into account the enjoyment they gave you as well.

 

Say a set of Green Lantern 52's 1-12 cost me $40, I had fun with them, but now I'm going to pass them on to another, so they can get some enjoyment out of it, even if I sell them at a loss and get $20, I'm still getting $20 back of my original investment of $40 which is better than nothing, as in the case with digital.

 

Digital Comics $40, that's it, gone.

 

Physical Comics $40, if you don't want them anymore, sell it, yeah it's a loss in this case, but still $20 back, so I'm $20 out as opposed to digitals $40.

 

And you can keep new comics in good condition without bags and boards, look at the pedigree collections, they never had bags and boards as far I know.

 

How many digital comics does one get for $40?

 

$0 worth of sellable comics?

 

Go to Ebay comics section and type in DVD to see all the people trying to sell digital comics. Lots of people mine public domain sites like DCM for the free scans then try to sell them as collections. Back before Marvel or DC ever offered a digiital comic all the old titles were being scanned. DC even had some holes in their own inventory from the 40s and 50s. They asked DC collectors that scanned these comics for them. They knew that this was going to be a popular medium to read comics in. Some comics pre-1960 are so rare that is the only way most people will ever read said comic. Hulk 181? Click. FF #1? Click. Amazing Fantasy #15? Click. Complete run of 1950s The Thing? Click. All-Star #3? Click.

[Prince Namor]

I don't see digital comics as a threat of physical. I thought it was a very small possibility a few years ago but now overall, it seems to bring more people into the comic book store.

 

On occasion I buy an issue like Walking Dead because I can read it before the comic store gets it and I don't have to worry about damaging my copy. I'm all for digital.

 

Make it digital first, to try and get people away from buying hard copies from the stores ;-( that's the game plan in my opinion.

 

Maybe I'm wrong?

 

As long time comic book fans, it's hard for us to understand how intimidating it is to walk into a comic book store for the first time.

Even if you just want something simple like Spider-man.

Where do you start? What's actually good, and in who's opinion is it good?

Many comic book store clerks know very little about anything other than what THEY are personally reading, and many are talking with other uber nerds, talking louder than necessary, and....

 

It can be a bizarre and weird experience.

 

Even more bizarre if you're timid, or a female, or a parent who just isn;t hip to what's going on....

 

Online, you can take your time, browse as long as you want in the comfort of your own home.

 

Once you've read different things over the course of a few months, the comic book store doesn't seem like such a weird place to visit.

 

I have a number of regular customers that came to my store this way.

[comicquant]

As long time comic book fans, it's hard for us to understand how intimidating it is to walk into a comic book store for the first time.

Even if you just want something simple like Spider-man.

Where do you start? What's actually good, and in who's opinion is it good?

Many comic book store clerks know very little about anything other than what THEY are personally reading, and many are talking with other uber nerds, talking louder than necessary, and....

 

It can be a bizarre and weird experience.

 

Even more bizarre if you're timid, or a female, or a parent who just isn;t hip to what's going on....

 

Online, you can take your time, browse as long as you want in the comfort of your own home.

 

Once you've read different things over the course of a few months, the comic book store doesn't seem like such a weird place to visit.

 

I have a number of regular customers that came to my store this way.

 

I couldn't agree more. As I mentioned earlier in this post I started collecting early this year after 20 years off and trying to find something to focus on was overwhelming to say the least. Aside from shaolingoat (boardie and long time friend) pointing me to the boards as well as providing other tidbits of wisdom; digital played a big role in helping me determine which direction to take. Prior to these events I was like a manic octopus just grabbing whatever I could with no focus. Days of my collecting resurgence I'd rather keep repressed. Being able to read (digitally) the SA runs I grew up collecting was awesome to me so thats the focus of my collection (ASM run). Whenever I buy a new slab or raw book, I read it digitally. Its become part of a collecting process thats a combination of physical and digital. I also read several modern titles digitally but don't bother with buying the physical book.

[Buzzetta]

The digital may be cheap for now, that's because they want you to move to digital.

 

Once they get rid of the hard copies, do you think your digitals will still be as cheap?

 

Was not trying to be a white knight Buzz, that was the only point in your statement that I did not like.

 

Not sure why people assume all comic collectors are 30-40, I know plenty who are 50 and 20.

If there are no more modern comics, there will most likely be no more CGC as well, I think the back issue market will end up collapsing as well.

 

Me, I like to support the shops and give them some dollars, rather than giving it straight to Marvel or DC. You can get good £1 packs in FP for £1 which has 5 current issues, but as someone said, there will be odd issues missing from the run, but I thought part of the fun in collecting comics was trying to find those issues and fill in the gaps?

 

I think maybe the digital market is more aimed at the trade paperback collectors, they like it all at once, rather than going out there tracking, hunting a specific issue out. Me as a collector, I love looking through the bins, looking for that issue which fills in a nice gap in my run, guess I'm old school.

 

Anyway, most the Marvel and DC comics both suck at the moment, maybe it's a ploy to drive us away from buying them, .

 

I'd responding out of order thus the boldface.

 

On CGC and back issues

1 - There was a back issue market before CGC and there will be a back issue market long after CGC. Most likely modern issues will collapse in terms of value compared to what they are worth today. Key moments or 1st appearances will still be sought after. People are reading digital novels yet first published editions of classic novels are still sought after and command some decent money at auction.

 

On Age Groups

30-40 is a common demographic. Comics are no longer being made for the 30-50 year old reader (better?). The best comparison I can make is with GI Joe. Over on hisstank there are MANY... and I mean MANY that complain that the toy aisles no longer look like 1986 when GI Joe took over boys toys. They complain that GI Joe is not enticing the Joe collector. Hasbro's concern is not the Joe collector. Hasbro's concern is bringing in fresh blood. They've been able to do this successfully with the Transformers line and somehow appealed to some of the long time collectors with limited Masterpiece Collection Transformers that are 6x more than the standard kids intended Transformer. (Regular Toy Aisle TF = $15 while most basic MP Avg TF is $90). They cannot figure out how to do it with Joe. So they started changing things. Ripcord went from a red headed white guy to an African American. Dial Tone when from a cheesy male communications officer to a female. Doc was retired and they brought in his niece and so on. New characters have been introduced... Why? Because they are trying to draw in fresh blood. Eventually these adult collectors will indeed move on. They may go back and just decide to go 'classic' or 'vintage' Joe. They may feel they have had enough. WORSE still they may be savvy enough not to need ANYTHING now and wait until it shows up in TJ Maxx or another chain discount. Comics are the same way.

 

Marvel and DC are doing the same. The comics that are currently produced are not trying to keep the 'collectors'. The collectors are either staying anyway so they can continue reading about their favorite character or they are staying so they have something to complain about. Marvel does not publish comic books for you to collect. They publish comic books to promote their intellectual property with synergy across all other formats of entertainment. They don't care if comic collectors buy their comics. They want the kid who buys the Spider-man video game to buy a Spider-man Comic, go see Spider-man in the movies, go to Toys R Us and buy a Spider-man action figure and a Lego set. To do that they have to make Spider-man cool for kids. I want Spider-man to be married to MJ. I completely understand why that cannot be.

 

[Jeffro.]

I couldn't be happier that marvel and DC no longer make comics that I want to read. There are a whole host of reasons why I don't want to spend my money on modern Marvel/DC. Basically, it comes down to I am not their target audience anymore and I'm fine with that. I hope they continue to keep doing what they are doing and I will happily spend my money on those SA through CA comics I never checked out before and be very happy doing it.

 

 

[aerischan]

The digital may be cheap for now, that's because they want you to move to digital.

 

Once they get rid of the hard copies, do you think your digitals will still be as cheap?

 

Was not trying to be a white knight Buzz, that was the only point in your statement that I did not like.

 

Not sure why people assume all comic collectors are 30-40, I know plenty who are 50 and 20.

If there are no more modern comics, there will most likely be no more CGC as well, I think the back issue market will end up collapsing as well.

 

Me, I like to support the shops and give them some dollars, rather than giving it straight to Marvel or DC. You can get good £1 packs in FP for £1 which has 5 current issues, but as someone said, there will be odd issues missing from the run, but I thought part of the fun in collecting comics was trying to find those issues and fill in the gaps?

 

I think maybe the digital market is more aimed at the trade paperback collectors, they like it all at once, rather than going out there tracking, hunting a specific issue out. Me as a collector, I love looking through the bins, looking for that issue which fills in a nice gap in my run, guess I'm old school.

 

Anyway, most the Marvel and DC comics both suck at the moment, maybe it's a ploy to drive us away from buying them, .

If they want people to keep people buying comics then, yeah, they can't raise prices too much. Otherwise, someone else will come in and undercut them. Besides, there's plenty of other sources of entertainment fighting for consumers' money. The internet also makes it possible for creators/artists to reach consumers directly.

 

CGC deals with scarcity and rarities. Meanwhile, the internet is designed for cheap dissemination of information. I reckon there's room for both. Digital media for mass consumption and printed media for traditional collectors and speculators. Paper replaced clay tablets. The printing press made books more accessible and affordable. Digital distribution via internet is just the next evolution. However, we do need to be vigilant so that Orwell's vision of the future doesn't come to pass.

 

I have my Comixology linked to an LCS. I believe they get a commission of the sale whenever I buy something from Comixology. Upside, the LCS doesn't even have to keep physical stock of the comics (mostly back issues) I buy.

 

As long time comic book fans, it's hard for us to understand how intimidating it is to walk into a comic book store for the first time.

Even if you just want something simple like Spider-man.

Where do you start? What's actually good, and in who's opinion is it good?

Many comic book store clerks know very little about anything other than what THEY are personally reading, and many are talking with other uber nerds, talking louder than necessary, and....

 

It can be a bizarre and weird experience.

 

Even more bizarre if you're timid, or a female, or a parent who just isn;t hip to what's going on....

 

Online, you can take your time, browse as long as you want in the comfort of your own home.

 

Once you've read different things over the course of a few months, the comic book store doesn't seem like such a weird place to visit.

 

I have a number of regular customers that came to my store this way.

+1. As a not very personable female, I definitely agree. Some of the LCS I've been too aren't exactly welcoming and n00b-friendly.

[mattn792]

As long time comic book fans, it's hard for us to understand how intimidating it is to walk into a comic book store for the first time.

Even if you just want something simple like Spider-man.

Where do you start? What's actually good, and in who's opinion is it good?

Many comic book store clerks know very little about anything other than what THEY are personally reading, and many are talking with other uber nerds, talking louder than necessary, and....

 

It can be a bizarre and weird experience.

 

Even more bizarre if you're timid, or a female, or a parent who just isn;t hip to what's going on....

 

Online, you can take your time, browse as long as you want in the comfort of your own home.

 

Once you've read different things over the course of a few months, the comic book store doesn't seem like such a weird place to visit.

 

I have a number of regular customers that came to my store this way.

 

True story, and even as a longtime comic book fan it can still be a bizarre experience going into a store. Last summer I stopped by one I hadn't been to in a number of years since I happened to be in the area. "Aisles" consisted of stuff of all shapes and sizes haphazardly piled to the ceiling, and the three guys who were in there (I assume employees) were yelling random Batman quotes for the entire 10 minutes I browsed. It was like I'd walked into a 9 year old's basement.

 

 

Anyway, back on topic, I'll consider getting back into Marvel new releases as soon as they release the Giant Size #1 of "All That mess We've Tried to Pull In the Last Few Years Never Happened."

[drakesfuture]

I have been reading this thread with a lot of enjoyment.

 

The issue, as I see it, is with the tipping point being reached right around the time the first Avengers movie hit it big.

 

For the entire life of the comic book history, the actual physical comic books have been the main driver of the comic book characters.

 

If you really wanted to find out about spider man or have a physical representation of your fan hood (Word?), you really had to buy and read a spider man comic book.

 

Now, I know that different memorabilia has been around almost as long as the comics themselves. One of my favorite things connected with back issue reading is the ads and a lot of those ads contain comic memorabilia. I just read an old Action comics issue that advertised super hero kites. I bet they were awesome!

 

What has happened, just in the past decade, has been a tipping point in character consumption.

 

I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me.......

 

My lady friend and I recently went and saw Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 at a budget theatre. The movie sucked, but that's besides the point. She is actually a big TMNT fan. When we were walking out I mentioned how I thought that was the worst comic movie of the year. She replied that she had no idea TMNT came from comics.

 

I am a teacher. Some of my students, believe it or not, have no idea that Deadpool, Suicide Squad and, yes, even the X-Men and Batman/Superman come from comic books.

 

 

The consumption of the material has changed and I'm not just talking digital comics and TPBs.

It is super easy to binge watch Luke Cage's latest Adventures for a 10 buck Netflix subscription or catch up on a decades worth of the Avengers adventures in a month or so checking movies out of the library.

I don't have to list them all, but network TV (FREE) allows me to watch Supergirl, gotham, Flash etc. etc. etc. without doing anything except flopping my lazy butt on the couch (And, don't think that there aren't a growing number of people that don't know those characters started in comic books.

 

My greater point, though, is where the money comes from.

 

The money no longer comes from the print comics. For the majority of comic history all the memorabilia, sparse movie releases, TV shows, clothing imprints etc. etc. etc. did not eclipse the comic income. Even all put together they didn't.

 

Today, though, my local Kohl's clothing store KEEPS a super hero clothing section. Disney Stores KEEP a marvel comics toy section. Friggin' Wal-Mart and Best Buy has a comic superhero movie section.

 

Just this year there have been so many movies with their origins in comic books I can't even count them all off the top of my head.

 

I know it's passé but log onto YAHOO. There are always at least a half dozen comic book movie stories on their front page.

 

SOOOO much money is coming in from other sources that the comic companies have been wise to change their practices.

 

 

I look at Marvel's latest lineup of books and it reads like a test kitchen.

Look....a ton of characters have already been launched (with MUCHO success) into the mainstream. I will list a few just for context; Iron Man, Wolverine, Batman, Daredevil, Luke Cage, Wonder Woman, Flash etc. etc etc.

Marvel is now testing out more properties.

 

Get it?

Tony Stark Iron Man is already FRIGGIN' HUGE!! He has become such a part of mainstream popular culture that Marvel is done with him. He is already done, certified fresh out of the oven. Marvel will be making money off that character for many years to come regardless. So, why not try out a new character in the Iron man suit and see if they can get another property out into the mainstream?

DO you think it's a coincidence that they are recently downplaying their old tried and true characters in favor of either completely new characters, or a retread character that never really got their time in the sun.

 

If Marvel can get people to start buying Prowler T-Shirts and Netflix options a Prowler Season then they win twice. Why keep pimping Wolverine when is already helping the company rake in Huge bucks.

 

 

 

My point is the tail is now wagging the dog. The ancillary incomes always happened BECAUSE of the comics. The comics had to be good to keep up sales and interest.

That is no longer the case. The comics have become the test lab for what USED to be the ancillary income.

 

 

 

Now, is this bad or good? Tough to say. I have an enormous comic collection that grows ever larger month to month. I also have niches in my collection fro everything from heroclix to collector's cups. My plan for a long time has been to grow it and grow it until retirement then have fun in retirement finding buyers for all of it. (one of my ":schemes" to stay young in retirement). I desperately hope that the medium hasn't crumbled to the point that I have a vault full of completely useless .

However, I can report that I am having a blast with the new reality. It is super fun picking through Kohl's super hero clothes and going to the mega screen to watch The latest movie.

[drakesfuture]

Boy, that was a rambling mess.

 

LOOONNGG story short:

 

The comics have become test kitchens for the economic drivers (aka characters)

[mattn792]

Well put. It will certainly interesting to watch and see if a mess product with unimaginative "new" characters will equal drastic loss of readership. Granted we may not know for a while because speculative buying seems to be alive and well at the present time.

[Ryan.]

Rambling or not, your assessment is correct.

[drakesfuture]

Well put. It will certainly interesting to watch and see if a mess product with unimaginative "new" characters will equal drastic loss of readership. Granted we may not know for a while because speculative buying seems to be alive and well at the present time.

 

 

I will admit to not having (or caring to have) the numbers at the ready.

 

However, I would speculate that comics as a medium, and (to keep to the OP) Marvel comics, to be more specific are in no danger of ever having a dramatic loss of readership.

 

There will always be hardcore fans who want to collect and read the adventures of their favorite characters (Here is a "for instance". My lady friend recently bought the Batman Year one TPB because I told her that the Nolan Batman movies are similar in tone to Year One and Year one is Awesome. She loves the Nolan Batman movies so wanted to give it a try. As an aside, she is also reading through library copies of the Game of Thrones comic adaptations despite never really picking up a comic before I came along and brightened up her life.)

I believe that the incredible explosion of comic characters and stories into popular culture will only help the medium.

While Marvel, as a company, may care less about their "classic" properties and the stories they appear in, the fans don't stop caring.

 

I see way more people buying comics in places like Barnes and Noble than I ever have before and usually they are picking them off a rack related to a recent movie or TV show.

 

 

The anecdotal evidence is that the "new" fans being brought in by the movies and other stuff are people who may not buy a ton of comics but they are people that NEVER would have bought a comic otherwise. That can only be good.

 

 

The negative offshoot of this is the complete and utter destruction of continuity. I am huge Jim Shooter fan because the absolute heyday of Marvel Universe continuity came during his reign. There isn't even a semblance of real continuity remaining in comics anymore and it will likely get worse with this current trend.

Characters and titles will constantly be modified to fit the movie and TV properties and titles will constantly be re-booting to remain accessible to new fans.

 

 

 

Here is a funny thought I had while typing this. Does' anyone remember when the X-Men changed their uniforms in the comics shortly after the first movie hit big? I remember HATING the leather jacket look in the comics and being all kinds of butt hurt that the comics changed to fit the movie. Well, I had better be able to get over stuff like that because it's gonna happen more and more and more.

[comicquant]

I didn't see any rambling... I think I caught myself throwing out a couple of "amens" while reading!

[F For Fake]

I feel like the more avenues we have for readers and collectors to access comics, the stronger the industry is. I myself am a hybrid when it comes to new comics: I still collect floppies of characters I've followed forever (Batman, Swamp Thing, etc) and artists that I collect, because in those cases I enjoy owning a physical collection.

 

But when it comes to reading, I prefer digital, hands down, no contest. I love the convenience, the ease of reading, the colors. I can read comics in my bed with the lights off and not disturb the wife. It's the modern equivalent of reading under the covers with a flashlight. And there's no residual worry about damaging the books, which appeals to my OCD.

 

Now, I will never pay full retail price for a digital book as long as it is the same price as a floppy. I DO understand the argument that if you're going to pay full price, you want to OWN something. I get it. I felt the same way about video games. I couldn't justify paying, say, $60 for the newest release digitally, when I could pay the same $60 at a brick and mortar store and have something physical that I could always trade in or sell off down the road if I wanted. I DO understand that argument.

 

But by and large, comics hold their value about as well as video games do, by which I mean you can buy a video game for $60, walk out the door, bring it back in a week and get offered $5. Most items that we purchase, comics, games, cars, etc, begin to depreciate the moment you own them.

 

But full priced digital comics aside, there are TONS of value options out there. As has been mentioned many times, Marvel Unlimited is a tremendous value, there are tons of great deals available through Humble Bundle, and Comixology often runs very appealing sales.

 

The simple truth is that through digital, I am sampling titles and characters that I probably never would have even thought of purchasing physically. But there's a good chance that by sampling it digitally, I may start picking up the comics, or trades to own.

 

Digital is a great way to grow the readership and fandom of comics.

[JollyComics]

Foolkiller

Prowler

Great Lakes Avengers

Occupy Avengers

Cage with artwork that's just

 

Plus an agenda that seems to be to do away with their iconic characters.

 

All great ways to make sure your market share declines.

 

Agreed. I can't wait to see them crash and burn.

 

 

....See them crash and burn until they are totally cooked!

[ygogolak]

 

[aerischan]

Anyway, back on topic, I'll consider getting back into Marvel new releases as soon as they release the Giant Size #1 of "All That mess We've Tried to Pull In the Last Few Years Never Happened."

Curious, I've been seeing *spoon* a lot on this forums and Google hasn't been very helpful. What does it mean?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Anyway, back on topic, I'll consider getting back into Marvel new releases as soon as they release the Giant Size #1 of "All That mess We've Tried to Pull In the Last Few Years Never Happened."

Curious, I've been seeing *spoon* a lot on this forums and Google hasn't been very helpful. What does it mean?

 

It's a board censor. click quote when you see it, and you will be able to see what word was censored.

 

insufficiently_thoughtful_person is also censored, but differently.

[Davenport]

There's a difference between being a fan and a collector.

Exactly.

And it's silly (in my mind) to think "comic book collector" doesn't extend to digital.

 

Someone who collects a wide variety of digital-offerings could possibly be more involved with the artform than, say, someone heavily invested in CGC'd comics.

 

Right? Just think of iPads and Androids as Slabs with zoom-in features and viewable pages..

 

You bring up an interesting conundrum that didn't exist before the digital age.

 

Is it collecting if someone is simply collecting digital copies? You can't smell them ,touch them, feel the differences (each age used different paper and inks).

It might be collecting in a newer sense (much like collecting pics from the internet might be) but I can also see how it isn't in the 'old' sense. It's much like collecting reprints IMO.

The "interesting conundrum" I'm hinting at is this...

 

"Is it collecting if someone is simply collecting digital CGC'd copies? You can't smell them ,touch them, feel the differences. (unless you crack them out, ruining the cert.)

 

Right? So, hypothetically, someone could own a warehouse full of encapsulated comics and never physically touch one.

 

That was my main point. That "digital" isn't "less than" anything when it comes to collecting comic books. And maybe "more" since digital is 'consumable' in the traditional sense.