Marvel has lost its way

[Buzzetta]

In fairness, if you want to say "well, wait a few months & get them for $1/issue digital", the same could be said on the physical copies based on your argument about attempting to recoup initial investment & fail, and you'll actually have a physical object that you can do whatever you want with. All without any risk of the content provider ever deciding that the digital distributor you purchased through (Comixology or something) is not someone they want to deal with anymore, or decides to outsource their digital distribution, or go exclusive with a different new distributor, and suddenly all the copies you bought (and it's NOT a purchase, it's essentially an indefinite "rental/lease" on the material that can be revoked at any time by the IP owner) vanish too.

 

Digital still has too many unknowns. And I'll compare it to iTunes. because that's really what it is. Now this is something that hasn't happened as much in recent years, but only a few years ago, movies that I bought from iTunes suddenly vanished from my "purchased" history around the time I was doing a format on my digital storage & figured I'd just re-download them. Well, thankfully I looked and they weren't there. I asked Apple about it and their response was that their distribution contract with the rights holder expired & hadn't been renewed. So if I didn't have copies of them stored locally, I was essentially screwed. Thankfully, I just backed those few movies up and it didn't impact me, but I guarantee a lot of other people got screwed in this deal.

 

And this is something that can very easily happen with digital comics as well. If you don't store them offline or locally, you can very easily lose access because you're never purchasing a THING. You're "leasing" access to data for an indefinite period of time that someone else controls. Most people don't realize that. And it gets very very cloudy as to what recourse someone has (currently, basically none) if they lose access to the "leased" material.

 

People inherently realize that going to see a movie in the theater or renting a movie doesn't provide them with ownership of that material the way that purchasing the BluRay or DVD does. They understand that going to see a band live or listening to even subscription radio doesn't allow them uncontrolled access to that music the way that a CD did. However, the switch over to digital has a lot of people convinced that it's no different than the hangover from VHS to DVD was or the way cassette to CD did. They don't understand that they don't have the same uncontrolled access to the material. They don't understand the paradigm shift when it comes to "ownership" with digital. Because there's no "thing" involved.

 

This is why I envision a Netflix model for future releases as an expansion of Marvel Unlimited. Society is being groomed for binge consumption. Is anyone watching one episode of Luke Cage one week at a time? One month at a time? I just watched four episodes today.

 

I envision an industry where an editor dictates a general plan and assigns parts of the overall story to a team of creators. They go and do a 'season' of comics to be released digitally. If you like the season you will see it in a TPB format.

 

The iTunes model does not work in your example because it is multiple music and motion picture companies. If Marvel makes this their future plan on a Marvel Unlimited 2.0 or whatever they want to call it then there is no rights issue. I would expect DC to do the same just like there is a Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime Video.

[dupont2005]

 

In fairness, if you want to say "well, wait a few months & get them for $1/issue digital", the same could be said on the physical copies

 

Not with 100% accuracy. My 80's indy back issue collecting is primarily dollar comics, and there are plenty of holes. It takes a long time to complete a run, and sooner or later you're going to have to log onto Lonestar and pay $3-$4 a pop for the few holes that are just impossible to fill. And the shipping will kill you, because you know the local LCS doesn't have a solid run of the past three years of anything.

 

and you'll actually have a physical object that you can do whatever you want with.

 

I read a lot more than I collect. And even within what I collect, space is at a minimum. What I end up wanting to do with the overflow of my collection is just plain get rid of it, at any price, even cents per issue, just so I can keep the collection manageable in size. Then, when I've gotten rid of them for a nickel each, I can't even read them anymore. When the time comes I want to delete a comic off my iPad (which I don't need to do since I got the 128gb model) I still have the email and can download it again if I want. Again, there are some series I want to collect in print. I do have a couple thousand comics still. It's just a couple thousand is plenty and not everything I pick up to read is worthy of a permanent spot in my collection. Some things I buy and read I just flat out don't even like. It's a waste of space, and money, if I buy in print. If I'm reading a series and decide I love it I can choose to hunt down back issues or even buy a fancy hardcover if I wish.

 

All without any risk of the content provider ever deciding that the digital distributor you purchased through (Comixology or something) is not someone they want to deal with anymore, or decides to outsource their digital distribution, or go exclusive with a different new distributor, and suddenly all the copies you bought (and it's NOT a purchase, it's essentially an indefinite "rental/lease" on the material that can be revoked at any time by the IP owner) vanish too.

 

I've lost, misplaced, destroyed, given away, and sold for chump change over ten thousand comics by my estimate. And I was lucky enough to have never lost any in a burglary/fire/flood. There are plenty of ways to lose physical comics as well. It's just not something I try to dwell on. But if I were to lose the $32 worth of digital comics I bought, I paid less than 7 cents each for them, so that's a consolation. If one slipcase hardcover falls off my bookshelf in an earthquake I'll have lost more money.

 

Digital still has too many unknowns. And I'll compare it to iTunes. because that's really what it is. Now this is something that hasn't happened as much in recent years, but only a few years ago, movies that I bought from iTunes suddenly vanished from my "purchased" history around the time I was doing a format on my digital storage & figured I'd just re-download them. Well, thankfully I looked and they weren't there. I asked Apple about it and their response was that their distribution contract with the rights holder expired & hadn't been renewed. So if I didn't have copies of them stored locally, I was essentially screwed. Thankfully, I just backed those few movies up and it didn't impact me, but I guarantee a lot of other people got screwed in this deal.

 

iTunes is just one retailer of digital music. You could compare Comixology to iTunes, but not the entire medium of digital comics. With digital comics you can purchase DRM downloads from sites like Comixology, you can purchase DRM free downloads direct from creators or publishers, you can purchase streaming access to massive libraries, you can read web hosted content both for free and for a fee. Distribution alone in digital comics is limitless, in floppies it's essentially a monopoly, excluding mega small press stuff.

 

And this is something that can very easily happen with digital comics as well. If you don't store them offline or locally, you can very easily lose access because you're never purchasing a THING. You're "leasing" access to data for an indefinite period of time that someone else controls. Most people don't realize that. And it gets very very cloudy as to what recourse someone has (currently, basically none) if they lose access to the "leased" material.

 

In some cases that's true, not in all cases. I have purchased DRM free copies of digital comics. Again, at a severe discount.

 

People inherently realize that going to see a movie in the theater or renting a movie doesn't provide them with ownership of that material the way that purchasing the BluRay or DVD does. They understand that going to see a band live or listening to even subscription radio doesn't allow them uncontrolled access to that music the way that a CD did. However, the switch over to digital has a lot of people convinced that it's no different than the hangover from VHS to DVD was or the way cassette to CD did. They don't understand that they don't have the same uncontrolled access to the material. They don't understand the paradigm shift when it comes to "ownership" with digital. Because there's no "thing" involved.

 

Blu Rays scratch and break. They get stolen. They melt on the dash of your car. I mentioned I had never lost comics in a robbery. I did lose DVD's. My house had been robbed and a 500 disc folder full of movies was one of the things I had lost. This was in 1999, a lot of those movies were like $45. All gone.

 

I also lost my entire CD collection because I stored them in a 300 disc changer.

 

 

During a move I was carrying the changer out to the car, I lost my balance and tipped it sideways, all the CD's fell out of their slots. It was a loud crash similar to glass shattering. When I finally dug all the CD's out they were scratched and skipping. The entire 300 disc collection. I haven't bought more than a dozen CD's since and it's been about 11 years. I don't buy CD's or DVD's anymore. I was continuing to buy out of print bootlegs to rip onto my hard drive until last year when I finally removed the disc drive from my computer, now I couldn't play a CD if I wanted to. I have built a modest stereo system since then though, and do listen to music daily, for free. Youtube has everything I want to hear. I've never even purchased a Blu Ray. I got one with my PS3 and I got one for Christmas. I watched each one once. They're gone now, gave them to the thrift store. I don't own DVD's, CD's or Blu Rays anymore.

 

So again, you prefer print floppies. That's fine. There is no real benefit to it though.

[comicquant]

In fairness, if you want to say "well, wait a few months & get them for $1/issue digital", the same could be said on the physical copies based on your argument about attempting to recoup initial investment & fail, and you'll actually have a physical object that you can do whatever you want with. All without any risk of the content provider ever deciding that the digital distributor you purchased through (Comixology or something) is not someone they want to deal with anymore, or decides to outsource their digital distribution, or go exclusive with a different new distributor, and suddenly all the copies you bought (and it's NOT a purchase, it's essentially an indefinite "rental/lease" on the material that can be revoked at any time by the IP owner) vanish too.

 

Digital still has too many unknowns. And I'll compare it to iTunes. because that's really what it is. Now this is something that hasn't happened as much in recent years, but only a few years ago, movies that I bought from iTunes suddenly vanished from my "purchased" history around the time I was doing a format on my digital storage & figured I'd just re-download them. Well, thankfully I looked and they weren't there. I asked Apple about it and their response was that their distribution contract with the rights holder expired & hadn't been renewed. So if I didn't have copies of them stored locally, I was essentially screwed. Thankfully, I just backed those few movies up and it didn't impact me, but I guarantee a lot of other people got screwed in this deal.

 

And this is something that can very easily happen with digital comics as well. If you don't store them offline or locally, you can very easily lose access because you're never purchasing a THING. You're "leasing" access to data for an indefinite period of time that someone else controls. Most people don't realize that. And it gets very very cloudy as to what recourse someone has (currently, basically none) if they lose access to the "leased" material.

 

People inherently realize that going to see a movie in the theater or renting a movie doesn't provide them with ownership of that material the way that purchasing the BluRay or DVD does. They understand that going to see a band live or listening to even subscription radio doesn't allow them uncontrolled access to that music the way that a CD did. However, the switch over to digital has a lot of people convinced that it's no different than the hangover from VHS to DVD was or the way cassette to CD did. They don't understand that they don't have the same uncontrolled access to the material. They don't understand the paradigm shift when it comes to "ownership" with digital. Because there's no "thing" involved.

I'm fine with leasing the content because thats what I've been doing my entire life. Its just I no longer have the "thing" on which the content is stored. Whether its a cassette, VHS, CD, DVD, whatever; you've never had ownership of the content... You're simply paying for the transfer medium on which the leased material is contained. You aren't free to "legally" distribute any content you've purchased and have in hand for the very fact you have no ownership claim at all. I do find it odd that they can just pull digital content you've purchased without you being made aware but I'm sure there is something in the fine print that covers such a scenario.

 

 

 

 

[dupont2005]

My iTunes library is stored on my hard drive, not sure how well iTunes could remove those files. I'm sure they pull content from the store and their streaming service, but not sure they could remove Lookout Weekend from my computer even if they wanted to.

[Doktor]

In fairness, if you want to say "well, wait a few months & get them for $1/issue digital", the same could be said on the physical copies based on your argument about attempting to recoup initial investment & fail, and you'll actually have a physical object that you can do whatever you want with. All without any risk of the content provider ever deciding that the digital distributor you purchased through (Comixology or something) is not someone they want to deal with anymore, or decides to outsource their digital distribution, or go exclusive with a different new distributor, and suddenly all the copies you bought (and it's NOT a purchase, it's essentially an indefinite "rental/lease" on the material that can be revoked at any time by the IP owner) vanish too.

 

Digital still has too many unknowns. And I'll compare it to iTunes. because that's really what it is. Now this is something that hasn't happened as much in recent years, but only a few years ago, movies that I bought from iTunes suddenly vanished from my "purchased" history around the time I was doing a format on my digital storage & figured I'd just re-download them. Well, thankfully I looked and they weren't there. I asked Apple about it and their response was that their distribution contract with the rights holder expired & hadn't been renewed. So if I didn't have copies of them stored locally, I was essentially screwed. Thankfully, I just backed those few movies up and it didn't impact me, but I guarantee a lot of other people got screwed in this deal.

 

And this is something that can very easily happen with digital comics as well. If you don't store them offline or locally, you can very easily lose access because you're never purchasing a THING. You're "leasing" access to data for an indefinite period of time that someone else controls. Most people don't realize that. And it gets very very cloudy as to what recourse someone has (currently, basically none) if they lose access to the "leased" material.

 

People inherently realize that going to see a movie in the theater or renting a movie doesn't provide them with ownership of that material the way that purchasing the BluRay or DVD does. They understand that going to see a band live or listening to even subscription radio doesn't allow them uncontrolled access to that music the way that a CD did. However, the switch over to digital has a lot of people convinced that it's no different than the hangover from VHS to DVD was or the way cassette to CD did. They don't understand that they don't have the same uncontrolled access to the material. They don't understand the paradigm shift when it comes to "ownership" with digital. Because there's no "thing" involved.

 

This is why I envision a Netflix model for future releases as an expansion of Marvel Unlimited. Society is being groomed for binge consumption. Is anyone watching one episode of Luke Cage one week at a time? One month at a time? I just watched four episodes today.

 

I envision an industry where an editor dictates a general plan and assigns parts of the overall story to a team of creators. They go and do a 'season' of comics to be released digitally. If you like the season you will see it in a TPB format.

 

The iTunes model does not work in your example because it is multiple music and motion picture companies. If Marvel makes this their future plan on a Marvel Unlimited 2.0 or whatever they want to call it then there is no rights issue. I would expect DC to do the same just like there is a Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime Video.

 

And that works as long as Marvel keeps their Unlimited service in-house. Maybe sometime down the line, they opt to outsource it? How does that affect your availability?

 

And my iTunes model DOES work as a comparison. What exactly is Comixology if not iTunes for comics? It's multiple publishers using a single digital distributor. And if some new company comes along with a better system that undercuts Amazon with Comixology & signs an exclusivity agreement with a publisher? What happens to your content that you purchased through them? It's happened with iTunes and Amazon & Google in the past. It can happen to Comixology as well.

 

The point remains that you OWN nothing with digital. You "lease" for an indefinite amount of time that is entirely at the discretion of the rights holder.

[aerischan]

This is why I envision a Netflix model for future releases as an expansion of Marvel Unlimited. Society is being groomed for binge consumption. Is anyone watching one episode of Luke Cage one week at a time? One month at a time? I just watched four episodes today.

 

I envision an industry where an editor dictates a general plan and assigns parts of the overall story to a team of creators. They go and do a 'season' of comics to be released digitally. If you like the season you will see it in a TPB format.

 

The iTunes model does not work in your example because it is multiple music and motion picture companies. If Marvel makes this their future plan on a Marvel Unlimited 2.0 or whatever they want to call it then there is no rights issue. I would expect DC to do the same just like there is a Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime Video.

 

And that works as long as Marvel keeps their Unlimited service in-house. Maybe sometime down the line, they opt to outsource it? How does that affect your availability?

 

And my iTunes model DOES work as a comparison. What exactly is Comixology if not iTunes for comics? It's multiple publishers using a single digital distributor. And if some new company comes along with a better system that undercuts Amazon with Comixology & signs an exclusivity agreement with a publisher? What happens to your content that you purchased through them? It's happened with iTunes and Amazon & Google in the past. It can happen to Comixology as well.

 

The point remains that you OWN nothing with digital. You "lease" for an indefinite amount of time that is entirely at the discretion of the rights holder.

This is one point I was very well aware of. I didn't jump on the digital download bandwagon until music went DRM-free and there were tools available to, umm, "liberate" ebooks. I always download my ebooks and digital comics to computer and immediately make DRM-free backups (at least 3 copies in at least 2 separate locations). Making offline backups is useless if DRM prevents you from actually being able to play/read your backup (e.g. old computer died and you're unable to activate a new device because Amazon/Apple/etc went bankrupt or something).

 

Unfortunately, breaking DRM is against the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (although there is a loophole allowed for ebooks so they can be used with screen readers for persons with blindness).

 

Invasive DRM is also the reason I still don't buy movies from online services and continue to purchase DVDs and Blu-rays. All my movies on iTunes and Ultraviolet are just redeemed digital copy codes from my Blu-ray purchases. If I ever buy something from iTunes, Amazon Video, Google Play, Vudu, etc, I treat it as a rental.

 

That said, not all publishers have draconian rules. Here's Image's policy with regards to digital comics:

 

https://imagecomics.com/about/digital-comics

 

 

IMAGE COMICS DIGITAL

 

Image Comics Digital provides the greatest in creator owned comics to you and gives you the choice for your preferred format for use on your preferred device. Image Comics Digital files are compatible will all leading computer operating systems and handheld devices and tablets.

 

In case you’re not quite sure what format is for you, we’ve provided this helpful information to help get you started.

 

Digital Comics Formats

 

Image Comics Digital are available in the following formats:

 

Portable Document Format (PDF) - this is a common, independent document type used for all manner of documents and is functional on all major computer platforms.Recommended Applications for use:

 

Desktop: Adobe Reader

iOS: Good Reader

Android: Adobe Reader for Android

 

Electronic Publication (ePub) - this file type has been developed specifically for print publications to be converted for use on a digital device.Recommended Applications for use:

 

iOS: iBooks

Android: Aldiko Book Reader

 

Comic Book Archive (CBR and CBZ) - this file type is a simple way to read comic books via an archive file designed specifically for comics.Recommended Applications for use:

 

Desktop: Windows - Comic RackandCDisplay, OSX - Simple Comic

iOS: ComicZeal

Android: A Comic Viewer

Support

 

If you have any problems accessing any of the file formats available from Image Comics Digital, please send an email to info@imagecomics.com and we’ll be happy to help you

 

Image Comics Digital Comics Policy

 

When you buy a digital comic from Image Comics, completing your purchase means you accept our Digital Comic User Agreement (“Agreement’). Please read the full text of the Agreement.

 

Why We Have Terms and Conditions – The creators of comic books published by Image own all rights in the works they create. The Copyright Act grants five exclusive rights to copyright owners:

 

1. the right to reproduce the copyrighted work

 

2. the right to prepare derivative works based upon the work

 

3. the right to distribute copies of the work to the public

 

4. the right to perform the copyrighted work publicly

 

5. the right to display the copyrighted work publicly.

 

Image Comicss Digital Comic User Agreement tries to strike a balance between allowing you to enjoy digital comics without annoying DRM restrictions, while also protecting the rights of the creators whose hard work brings you the comics you love. Under the Agreement:

 

• You have a personal sublicense to display the copyrighted works in the digital media file that you purchase.

 

• You may make a copy of your digital comic for your own use onto any device.

 

• You may print a copy of your digital comic for your own offline enjoyment.

 

• You may share your digital comic by sharing a device on which you have loaded the comic. For example, by lending someone your Kindle. Image encourages you to share the goodness with your friends and family, or at least the ones you trust with your e-reader.

 

• You may not make copies of your digital comic—either the media file or print copies—to share with anyone else. For example, uploading the digital comic to a file-sharing site, emailing the file to others, or printing copies for friends (or strangers).

 

In short, Image Comics thinks you should have a DRM-free reading experience on whatever device you choose whenever you want. Image thinks you should show family and friends what you’re reading; maybe they’ll like it. But uploading your digital media file to file-sharing sites or making copies for others is copyright infringement and remains prohibited under the Agreement and can subject you to liability.

 

 

Digital is not the problem. DRM is. If DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, etc had the same policy as Image for purchased comics, then losing online access wouldn't be an issue as long as one is conscientious with backups.

 

Link to DRM Free Publishers and Titles on Comixology:

https://www.comixology.com/DRM-Free-Comics/page/2794

[VintageComics]

There's a difference between being a fan and a collector.

Exactly.

And it's silly (in my mind) to think "comic book collector" doesn't extend to digital.

 

Someone who collects a wide variety of digital-offerings could possibly be more involved with the artform than, say, someone heavily invested in CGC'd comics.

 

Right? Just think of iPads and Androids as Slabs with zoom-in features and viewable pages..

 

You bring up an interesting conundrum that didn't exist before the digital age.

 

Is it collecting if someone is simply collecting digital copies? You can't smell them ,touch them, feel the differences (each age used different paper and inks).

 

It might be collecting in a newer sense (much like collecting pics from the internet might be) but I can also see how it isn't in the 'old' sense. It's much like collecting reprints IMO.

[jimjum12]

.... You lost me, bro..........I'm swirling into the digital infinite............ GOD BLESS.....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

 

.... the sound of one hand clapping

[aerischan]

This is why I envision a Netflix model for future releases as an expansion of Marvel Unlimited. Society is being groomed for binge consumption. Is anyone watching one episode of Luke Cage one week at a time? One month at a time? I just watched four episodes today.

 

I envision an industry where an editor dictates a general plan and assigns parts of the overall story to a team of creators. They go and do a 'season' of comics to be released digitally. If you like the season you will see it in a TPB format.

 

The iTunes model does not work in your example because it is multiple music and motion picture companies. If Marvel makes this their future plan on a Marvel Unlimited 2.0 or whatever they want to call it then there is no rights issue. I would expect DC to do the same just like there is a Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime Video.

And you can be sure Amazon-Comixology wants to be the Netflix of comics. I reckon Comixology pretty much holds majority marketshare for digital comics similar to how Kindle holds majority marketshare for ebooks and iTunes does for music.

 

Amazon has already rolled out Comixology Unlimited for $5.99/mo. Without support from the Big 2 though, I think what we may see in future is Marvel Unlimited for Marvel properties, DC Unlimited for DC properties and Comixology Unlimited for all others. Marvel and DC have a large enough consumer base that it's probably better for them monetarily to provide their own subscription service instead of getting just a small slice of the pie from Comixology Unlimited.

 

Can't really predict how this will go down for printed monthlies. What I'm seeing with the the introduction of Crunchyroll (pretty much Netflix for anime) is that the more popular series get licensed in the US for videogram (Blu-ray/DVD) distribution and are often released in expensive limited collector's edition sets. What we may end up seeing particularly for small publishers and indies is digital first download/streaming distribution and later Premium HC and/or TPB release for titles that are in demand.

[Buzzetta]

In fairness, if you want to say "well, wait a few months & get them for $1/issue digital", the same could be said on the physical copies based on your argument about attempting to recoup initial investment & fail, and you'll actually have a physical object that you can do whatever you want with. All without any risk of the content provider ever deciding that the digital distributor you purchased through (Comixology or something) is not someone they want to deal with anymore, or decides to outsource their digital distribution, or go exclusive with a different new distributor, and suddenly all the copies you bought (and it's NOT a purchase, it's essentially an indefinite "rental/lease" on the material that can be revoked at any time by the IP owner) vanish too.

 

Digital still has too many unknowns. And I'll compare it to iTunes. because that's really what it is. Now this is something that hasn't happened as much in recent years, but only a few years ago, movies that I bought from iTunes suddenly vanished from my "purchased" history around the time I was doing a format on my digital storage & figured I'd just re-download them. Well, thankfully I looked and they weren't there. I asked Apple about it and their response was that their distribution contract with the rights holder expired & hadn't been renewed. So if I didn't have copies of them stored locally, I was essentially screwed. Thankfully, I just backed those few movies up and it didn't impact me, but I guarantee a lot of other people got screwed in this deal.

 

And this is something that can very easily happen with digital comics as well. If you don't store them offline or locally, you can very easily lose access because you're never purchasing a THING. You're "leasing" access to data for an indefinite period of time that someone else controls. Most people don't realize that. And it gets very very cloudy as to what recourse someone has (currently, basically none) if they lose access to the "leased" material.

 

People inherently realize that going to see a movie in the theater or renting a movie doesn't provide them with ownership of that material the way that purchasing the BluRay or DVD does. They understand that going to see a band live or listening to even subscription radio doesn't allow them uncontrolled access to that music the way that a CD did. However, the switch over to digital has a lot of people convinced that it's no different than the hangover from VHS to DVD was or the way cassette to CD did. They don't understand that they don't have the same uncontrolled access to the material. They don't understand the paradigm shift when it comes to "ownership" with digital. Because there's no "thing" involved.

 

This is why I envision a Netflix model for future releases as an expansion of Marvel Unlimited. Society is being groomed for binge consumption. Is anyone watching one episode of Luke Cage one week at a time? One month at a time? I just watched four episodes today.

 

I envision an industry where an editor dictates a general plan and assigns parts of the overall story to a team of creators. They go and do a 'season' of comics to be released digitally. If you like the season you will see it in a TPB format.

 

The iTunes model does not work in your example because it is multiple music and motion picture companies. If Marvel makes this their future plan on a Marvel Unlimited 2.0 or whatever they want to call it then there is no rights issue. I would expect DC to do the same just like there is a Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime Video.

 

And that works as long as Marvel keeps their Unlimited service in-house. Maybe sometime down the line, they opt to outsource it? How does that affect your availability?

 

And my iTunes model DOES work as a comparison. What exactly is Comixology if not iTunes for comics? It's multiple publishers using a single digital distributor. And if some new company comes along with a better system that undercuts Amazon with Comixology & signs an exclusivity agreement with a publisher? What happens to your content that you purchased through them? It's happened with iTunes and Amazon & Google in the past. It can happen to Comixology as well.

 

The point remains that you OWN nothing with digital. You "lease" for an indefinite amount of time that is entirely at the discretion of the rights holder.

 

The world is changing. You can be like Jeff Besos who saw the future... or you can be like Sears the original catalog store who said, "No one will buy online" - they resisted change. Again. Comics are not produced for you. They are produced to attract the future. The future does not hold hard copy monthly periodicals in it. This is why there is a drift toward digital and this is why they are changing characters to attract new readers.

 

Again... Maybe with a few tweaks but I stand by my above mentioned business model for the future of comics. You can disagree. You are welcome to do so. You are also welcome to being left behind as things change arounds you. Digital on demand binge reading at your own pace. Creators create 'seasons' of issues / story arcs to read at your leisure and then TPB's for physical collections.

 

I mean c'mon. $4 for a new issue? What an absolute waste of money of doing this on a large scale. I was thinking again about the boardie that said he didn't have money to buy the back issues he wanted but was throwing $150 - $200 down a month on new issues. At the end of the year he had spent $1,800 - $2,400 a month having bought between 450 - 600 books a year.

 

 

[Rip]

I don't see digital comics as a threat of physical. I thought it was a very small possibility a few years ago but now overall, it seems to bring more people into the comic book store.

 

On occasion I buy an issue like Walking Dead because I can read it before the comic store gets it and I don't have to worry about damaging my copy. I'm all for digital.

[jimjum12]

In the immortal words of Neon Deion "I'll have BOTH."............... GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[dupont2005]

And my iTunes model DOES work as a comparison. What exactly is Comixology if not iTunes for comics?

You're not comparing COmixology to iTunes though, you're comparing the entire medium of digital comics to iTunes. It's not a good comparison.

[Doktor]

In fairness, if you want to say "well, wait a few months & get them for $1/issue digital", the same could be said on the physical copies based on your argument about attempting to recoup initial investment & fail, and you'll actually have a physical object that you can do whatever you want with. All without any risk of the content provider ever deciding that the digital distributor you purchased through (Comixology or something) is not someone they want to deal with anymore, or decides to outsource their digital distribution, or go exclusive with a different new distributor, and suddenly all the copies you bought (and it's NOT a purchase, it's essentially an indefinite "rental/lease" on the material that can be revoked at any time by the IP owner) vanish too.

 

Digital still has too many unknowns. And I'll compare it to iTunes. because that's really what it is. Now this is something that hasn't happened as much in recent years, but only a few years ago, movies that I bought from iTunes suddenly vanished from my "purchased" history around the time I was doing a format on my digital storage & figured I'd just re-download them. Well, thankfully I looked and they weren't there. I asked Apple about it and their response was that their distribution contract with the rights holder expired & hadn't been renewed. So if I didn't have copies of them stored locally, I was essentially screwed. Thankfully, I just backed those few movies up and it didn't impact me, but I guarantee a lot of other people got screwed in this deal.

 

And this is something that can very easily happen with digital comics as well. If you don't store them offline or locally, you can very easily lose access because you're never purchasing a THING. You're "leasing" access to data for an indefinite period of time that someone else controls. Most people don't realize that. And it gets very very cloudy as to what recourse someone has (currently, basically none) if they lose access to the "leased" material.

 

People inherently realize that going to see a movie in the theater or renting a movie doesn't provide them with ownership of that material the way that purchasing the BluRay or DVD does. They understand that going to see a band live or listening to even subscription radio doesn't allow them uncontrolled access to that music the way that a CD did. However, the switch over to digital has a lot of people convinced that it's no different than the hangover from VHS to DVD was or the way cassette to CD did. They don't understand that they don't have the same uncontrolled access to the material. They don't understand the paradigm shift when it comes to "ownership" with digital. Because there's no "thing" involved.

 

This is why I envision a Netflix model for future releases as an expansion of Marvel Unlimited. Society is being groomed for binge consumption. Is anyone watching one episode of Luke Cage one week at a time? One month at a time? I just watched four episodes today.

 

I envision an industry where an editor dictates a general plan and assigns parts of the overall story to a team of creators. They go and do a 'season' of comics to be released digitally. If you like the season you will see it in a TPB format.

 

The iTunes model does not work in your example because it is multiple music and motion picture companies. If Marvel makes this their future plan on a Marvel Unlimited 2.0 or whatever they want to call it then there is no rights issue. I would expect DC to do the same just like there is a Netflix, Hulu and Amazon Prime Video.

 

And that works as long as Marvel keeps their Unlimited service in-house. Maybe sometime down the line, they opt to outsource it? How does that affect your availability?

 

And my iTunes model DOES work as a comparison. What exactly is Comixology if not iTunes for comics? It's multiple publishers using a single digital distributor. And if some new company comes along with a better system that undercuts Amazon with Comixology & signs an exclusivity agreement with a publisher? What happens to your content that you purchased through them? It's happened with iTunes and Amazon & Google in the past. It can happen to Comixology as well.

 

The point remains that you OWN nothing with digital. You "lease" for an indefinite amount of time that is entirely at the discretion of the rights holder.

 

The world is changing. You can be like Jeff Besos who saw the future... or you can be like Sears the original catalog store who said, "No one will buy online" - they resisted change. Again. Comics are not produced for you. They are produced to attract the future. The future does not hold hard copy monthly periodicals in it. This is why there is a drift toward digital and this is why they are changing characters to attract new readers.

 

Again... Maybe with a few tweaks but I stand by my above mentioned business model for the future of comics. You can disagree. You are welcome to do so. You are also welcome to being left behind as things change arounds you. Digital on demand binge reading at your own pace. Creators create 'seasons' of issues / story arcs to read at your leisure and then TPB's for physical collections.

 

I mean c'mon. $4 for a new issue? What an absolute waste of money of doing this on a large scale. I was thinking again about the boardie that said he didn't have money to buy the back issues he wanted but was throwing $150 - $200 down a month on new issues. At the end of the year he had spent $1,800 - $2,400 a month having bought between 450 - 600 books a year.

 

 

Maybe I'm not being clear here; I'm not talking about Unlimited binge reading. That's a whole different animal.

 

I'm talking the existing model of pay-per-issue for new material. If some future hypothetical company called Super Comics Plus or something shows up on the scene, signs an exclusive distribution deal for say... Image or Dark Horse or whatever publisher or even if Comixology can't come to an agreement with a publisher to keep distributing with them & lose that publisher. The "new age" customers are going to have a fit when they find out that all the books that they bought from that publisher 3 or 4 years ago or even just last month suddenly vanish. And they can't read (or re-read) their old stuff without buying an Unlimited subscription (assuming that publisher has a similar program) or re-buy from the new exclusive distributor. The current model is still super muddy when it comes to how that's handled. It's happened with iTunes movies & music in the past and it can happen with comics in the future.

 

There's currently nothing that I'm aware of that prevents it from happening short of managing your data locally & not relying on the cloud storage that makes digital comics appealing (considering that they cost the same for a new release issue as a physical copy & there's zero collectible value to them) and maybe some of these new age customers want that questionable future access rights.

 

I don't disagree that digital is eventually the future. I don't disagree that I'm a dinosaur for preferring physical. I prefer digital for other media & I even prefer digital for some books (mostly when traveling, because I read multiple books at once & it saves me from having to carry 3 or 4 books when I can just carry my iPad) but until the ability for readers to be assured that their right to access the license that they bought will remain intact regardless of the publisher's contracts with the distributors, it's going to stay muddy. And it'll be something that holds dinosaurs like me & a lot of other older readers from really jumping on board.

 

(I don't want to get into the issues of who publishers are catering to and the merits or lack thereof to their arguments though. That's a whole other can of worms)

[Doktor]

And my iTunes model DOES work as a comparison. What exactly is Comixology if not iTunes for comics?

You're not comparing COmixology to iTunes though, you're comparing the entire medium of digital comics to iTunes. It's not a good comparison.

 

I'm talking about a portion (and a significant portion, at that) of the digital market with my iTunes comparison. Marvel Unlimited is obviously Netflix (Does DC have an unlimited yet? If so, it's obviously the Hulu Plus). Comixology is obviously iTunes. 2 services that cover a combined about 90-some% of the of their respective digital media markets. Sorry if I assumed the obvious comparison would be obvious. I didn't feel like I needed to spell it all out to be clear that binge-reading services weren't intended to be included in the iTunes comparison, since they don't offer binge-watching services. But they do offer pay-per-episode/song/album/season/movie services the same way that Comixology offers pay-per-issue/collection services. (Though apparently they've added a limited binge-reading service recently)

 

I'm ignoring the torrent side of digital, because I don't consider things people are pirating to be a "market" at all. Considering that it's more like a circumvention of the market. Are BluRay rips on Pirate Bay or whatever a "market"? No. It's a circumvention of the market since the customer isn't buying anything & the only people making money are on ads. The closest comparison to an actual "market" was when the big over-the-air networks in the 80's and 90's would occasionally show an actual studio release movie on a Saturday night or afternoon or something.

[dupont2005]

More than one model exists. More than one distributor exists. More than one format exists. You can't discuss or discount digital comics without discussing all those avenues and options, of which there are plenty.

 

Don't like Comixology? Fine. I don't buy comics from there either. But there's many more places to buy digital than Comixology. Or receive legal free access to digital. For example, I'm reading through Elfquest for free at elfquest.com. I'm rereading Empowered complete with exhaustive commentary not available in print at empoweredcomic.com. I feel more like I should be paying for that than the hardcovers. There's free access to public domain comics. There's small press webcomic creators giving their work away, and some of it is actually good believe it or not. There's Archie giving away hundreds of comics on their app. Sequential gave me a handful of free digital comics. Amazon gave me some free digital comics. I bought DRM free comics, including comics from publishers mentioned above as not offering DRM free comics, for pennies on the dollar through Humble Bundle. I bought DRM free digital comics direct through the creators on Kickstarter, or right off their website. When I buy a Ralph Snart comic it arrives in an email as a completely DRM free PDF. This is all digital comics. My access to these files is not at all muddy because they're saved on my computer and accesed through third party apps. As long as I can access my resume, I can access these comics.

 

And I've only been reading digital comics for under a year. Before I got my iPad Pro I had tried it a couple times, couldn't really get into it. Also the cost was a factor. I wasn't going to pay full price for a digital comic. But things have changed, and continue to change. I started reading web hosted comics like Freakangel. It was cool at home but a bit of a pain since I do a lot of comic reading at work or on the road. But then I started buying a little digital here and there, thought it wasn't so bad, and then got a humble bundle for a dollar just to try it out on my new iPad. I thought it was fantastic. Still do. Now I typically spend $15 per bundle to get all the content, if it's something I like and don't already own everything offered. I have bought four since December. Now I'm always on the prowl for free digital comics too. Downloaded all the comic apps, signed up to all the newsletters, even created a twitter strictly to follow Archie. I have more digital than I could reasonably read before the end of the year now, and have spent a total of $32.

[Ken Aldred]

There's a difference between being a fan and a collector.

Exactly.

And it's silly (in my mind) to think "comic book collector" doesn't extend to digital.

 

Someone who collects a wide variety of digital-offerings could possibly be more involved with the artform than, say, someone heavily invested in CGC'd comics.

Right? Just think of iPads and Androids as Slabs with zoom-in features and viewable pages..

 

You bring up an interesting conundrum that didn't exist before the digital age.

 

Is it collecting if someone is simply collecting digital copies? You can't smell them ,touch them, feel the differences (each age used different paper and inks).

 

It might be collecting in a newer sense (much like collecting pics from the internet might be) but I can also see how it isn't in the 'old' sense.

 

It's much like collecting reprints IMO.

 

You're right, it's really just an extension of that.

 

I don't have a single original Golden Age or Atom Age comic book and couldn't really afford them, anyway, but I do have many EC Library, Archive and Masterwork reprint hardcovers. These may be in a physical, paper format but aren't as originally published, any more than traditionalists see digital copies as being. I have had a good 30 years' worth of enjoyment from them, greatly expanded my knowledge of the comics medium in the process, and that's far more important to me than being considered a non-collector because I lack a purist approach. If someone else can get the same level of enrichment through reading .jpgs on a tablet device, not much wrong there.

[Doktor]

And that's the point I was making. You have to manage them locally (as opposed to cloud storage of them thru a 3rd party) to maintain access to them. You're proving my point here.

 

If you want to manage them locally, great. I specifically said "the only way you can avoid that risk is by storing them locally". But if you want them cloud-accessible, THAT is what I'm talking about for it getting very muddy. I'm not arguing that having them stored locally is muddy at all. But considering that most buyers DON'T store all their stuff locally and rely on the cloud storage since their iPad or whatever has limited storage, THAT is what I'm talking about.

 

Again, I'm sorry for assuming that the obvious parallel I was drawing was obvious & that I wasn't talking about the entire digital comics market (merely a significant % of the sales $$ portion of the market). Apparently it was not.

[aerischan]

And that's the point I was making. You have to manage them locally (as opposed to cloud storage of them thru a 3rd party) to maintain access to them. You're proving my point here.

 

If you want to manage them locally, great. I specifically said "the only way you can avoid that risk is by storing them locally". But if you want them cloud-accessible, THAT is what I'm talking about for it getting very muddy. I'm not arguing that having them stored locally is muddy at all. But considering that most buyers DON'T store all their stuff locally and rely on the cloud storage since their iPad or whatever has limited storage, THAT is what I'm talking about.

 

Again, I'm sorry for assuming that the obvious parallel I was drawing was obvious & that I wasn't talking about the entire digital comics market (merely a significant % of the sales $$ portion of the market). Apparently it was not.

Sad to say but it's usually at this point that people turn to piracy. These are, after all, tech savvy millennials (or even younger generations). Let's hope Amazon, DC and Marvel will be smart enough to avoid that even if they do get into clashes and posturing ala-Amazon/Hachette.

 

I think there's greater risk with smaller publishers who might go bankrupt. What happens to Amazon, et. al.'s distribution rights, then? On the upside, several small publishers do offer their content DRM-free so MAKE BACKUPS!

 

By the way, even offline DRMed copies stored in devices that phone home are at risk. Amazon has remotely deleted titles before (e.g. George Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm, Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged) because they never had the rights to distribute in the first place (someone uploaded bootlegs in the self-publishing platform). Apple's terms of service state they can remotely disable apps installed on your device.

 

The law is sorely unprepared to handle any of this and the MPAA/RIAA/AAP have large coffers to lobby for laws favorable for them and not consumers. However, there are groups such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation lobbying for fair consumer rights.

[herc2000]

The digital may be cheap for now, that's because they want you to move to digital.

 

Once they get rid of the hard copies, do you think your digitals will still be as cheap?

 

Was not trying to be a white knight Buzz, that was the only point in your statement that I did not like.

 

Not sure why people assume all comic collectors are 30-40, I know plenty who are 50 and 20.

If there are no more modern comics, there will most likely be no more CGC as well, I think the back issue market will end up collapsing as well.

 

Me, I like to support the shops and give them some dollars, rather than giving it straight to Marvel or DC. You can get good £1 packs in FP for £1 which has 5 current issues, but as someone said, there will be odd issues missing from the run, but I thought part of the fun in collecting comics was trying to find those issues and fill in the gaps?

 

I think maybe the digital market is more aimed at the trade paperback collectors, they like it all at once, rather than going out there tracking, hunting a specific issue out. Me as a collector, I love looking through the bins, looking for that issue which fills in a nice gap in my run, guess I'm old school.

 

Anyway, most the Marvel and DC comics both suck at the moment, maybe it's a ploy to drive us away from buying them, .