vodou Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 26 minutes ago, delekkerste said: I don't know if the Deadpool film has the general public love or not... delekkerste 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buyatari Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 37 minutes ago, delekkerste said: I don't know if the Deadpool film has the general public love or not (seems that way from what I've heard from my non-comic friends who saw the film, but that's just anecdotal). What I mean is that Deadpool has much higher name awareness than Harley Quinn among the general population as a result of the film and all the marketing tied to it. If you look at it through comic world lenses, you might disagree, since the two characters are arguably of comparable popularity within our sub-culture, but outside of it? 10-year old girls aside, Deadpool is much more of a household name than Harley Quinn in 2017. Two years ago, that may not have been the case, but now? No contest! The movie was popular and a big surprise hit but not Guardians of the Galaxy popular. Unless someone can provide merchandising numbers for the two characters we will just have to disagree on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, buyatari said: The movie was popular and a big surprise hit but not Guardians of the Galaxy popular. Unless someone can provide merchandising numbers for the two characters we will just have to disagree on this one. Well, obviously nobody is going to be able to break out individual line items like merchandising per character (though I would expect Deadpool to be greater than Harley even there - not that I think merchandising sales tell you much about how much name recognition a character has with the general public). But, we can compare box office grosses of Deadpool vs. Guardians: Deadpool Box Office: Domestic: $363.1 million Foreign: $420.0 million Worldwide: $783.1 million Guardians Box Office: Domestic: $333.2 million Foreign: $440.2 million Worldwide: $773.3 million (0.1 difference is due to rounding) Guardians 2 looks on track to put up comparable numbers to the first one ($40 million short at the moment). Looks like the two franchises are pretty comparable in popularity based on box office grosses. I guess that must mean that the Hulk #271 cover is now a $150-$250K item too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matches_Malone Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 11 minutes ago, delekkerste said: Well, obviously nobody is going to be able to break out individual line items like merchandising per character (though I would expect Deadpool to be greater than Harley even there - not that I think merchandising sales tell you much about how much name recognition a character has with the general public). But, we can compare box office grosses of Deadpool vs. Guardians: Deadpool Box Office: Domestic: $363.1 million Foreign: $420.0 million Worldwide: $783.1 million Guardians Box Office: Domestic: $333.2 million Foreign: $440.2 million Worldwide: $773.3 million (0.1 difference is due to rounding) Guardians 2 looks on track to put up comparable numbers to the first one ($40 million short at the moment). Looks like the two franchises are pretty comparable in popularity based on box office grosses. I guess that must mean that the Hulk #271 cover is now a $150-$250K item too! And DeadPool was nominated for best pic in Golden Globes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buyatari Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, delekkerste said: Well, obviously nobody is going to be able to break out individual line items like merchandising per character (though I would expect Deadpool to be greater than Harley even there - not that I think merchandising sales tell you much about how much name recognition a character has with the general public). But, we can compare box office grosses of Deadpool vs. Guardians: Deadpool Box Office: Domestic: $363.1 million Foreign: $420.0 million Worldwide: $783.1 million Guardians Box Office: Domestic: $333.2 million Foreign: $440.2 million Worldwide: $773.3 million (0.1 difference is due to rounding) Guardians 2 looks on track to put up comparable numbers to the first one ($40 million short at the moment). Looks like the two franchises are pretty comparable in popularity based on box office grosses. I guess that must mean that the Hulk #271 cover is now a $150-$250K item too! They were closer in initial box office than I expected but dvd/blu-ray sales aren't as close. Guardians is at 130m Domestic and Deadpool at 92m http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Guardians-of-the-Galaxy#tab=summary http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Deadpool#tab=summary Here is Suicide Squad which wasn't nearly as good a film as either of these. http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Suicide-Squad#tab=summary As far as the characters go I still stand behind what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buyatari Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Matches_Malone said: And DeadPool was nominated for best pic in Golden Globes Is that the awards show where Spider-man and Deadpool were making out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, buyatari said: They were closer in initial box office than I expected but dvd/blu-ray sales aren't as close. Guardians is at 130m Domestic and Deadpool at 92m http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Guardians-of-the-Galaxy#tab=summary http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Deadpool#tab=summary Here is Suicide Squad which wasn't nearly as good a film as either of these. http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Suicide-Squad#tab=summary As far as the characters go I still stand behind what I said. Suicide Squad did similar numbers, but was widely panned (25% on Rotten Tomatoes) and not loved like Deadpool and Guardians. More importantly, though, the film was called "Suicide Squad" - the likes of Deadshot, Harley Quinn, Killer Croc, Amanda Waller, etc. are not exactly household names as a result of the film. As for your earlier point about DVD sales - even adding those in to the totals, it doesn't significantly change the fact that the overall grosses are pretty comparable (and there could easily be other factors accounting for the difference anyway). There is just no way that Harley Quinn has achieved the mainstream popularity of Deadpool (and even he falls well short of more established characters despite what his most ardent fans would have you believe). And X-23 is barely even on the radar outside of the comics scene. We'll just have to agree to disagree as you said. Edited May 22, 2017 by delekkerste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matches_Malone Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 10 minutes ago, buyatari said: Is that the awards show where Spider-man and Deadpool were making out? Yep...SpideyPool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCarter27 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 batman_fan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NelsonAI Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Wasn't Harley Quinn's first appearance a WB Batman the Animated Series cartoon? Shouldn't all you speculators be chasing down the hundreds of animation cels that comprised her first showing? Cheers! N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidFerret Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 2 hours ago, NelsonAI said: Wasn't Harley Quinn's first appearance a WB Batman the Animated Series cartoon? Shouldn't all you speculators be chasing down the hundreds of animation cels that comprised her first showing? Cheers! N. I find it equally odd. There were 5 Batman episodes HQ appeared in over a 1 year period of time before the comic came out. So the comic is Harley's 6th appearance, a year after she first appeared. And to Michael Douglas' point, it was not drawn by the creator. On top of that, it appears Harley may have appeared in a variety of other print and merchandise before BA12, including the Batman Adventures Coloring Book, the Batman Adventures 3D Game, and Batman Almost Got ‘Im book: https://comicbookinvest.com/2015/07/16/harley-quinn-rarities/ It feels like the investment market wanted a first appearance to exist and forced one, even though the character was already well established. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESeffinga Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) Wondering, have there been many other characters that have jumped INTO the comics from other media, and then gone on to be primarily a comic book character, and then gone on to be really well known? I'm struggling to think of any. I'm sure there have to be some. If so, would those first appearances trigger any kind of premium in the comics or comic OA, considering their origins? Back to the topic at hand. My wife and I were huge Harley fans back when Paul and Bruce were running the show, and then the Mad Love book came out and just cemented everything. IMO Mad Love is the most important early appearance of Harley, because it's when she became the tragedy/comedy character everyone loves, and all writers have built upon. Not to mention it was drawn by the fellas that kicked off the whole Batman animated style that everyone else was emulating in the books. Nothing against those other guys. Folks like Mike Parobeck, Ty Templeton, Craig Rousseau all brought their own flavor to that style, but it all started with Timm. If I'm into Harley OA, it's from him. This coming from someone whose only cartoon cels in the house (all 3) feature Harley & Joker together. Such big fans in fact, we received Harley and Joker themed commissions from friends as wedding gifts. Not really sure what it was supposed to say about our relationship (hah), but yeah. Big fans. I've never given BA12 much thought. To me, it was just another early story in a series of appearances. For my money Mad Love is the Killing Joke or Dark Knight Returns of Harley stories. I voted under 100K. But with the way people are talking, maybe the OA market is total kookoo town now? I could put some great pieces of art together for $100K, and I just can't see BA12 being where I'd go even if I wanted Harley Art. By the by, I see the artwork debate surrounding the Batman animated comic art style a little bit different than what Gene seems to have implied earlier. He mentioned it was based off a cartoon for kids. Which it was. But that doesn't negate the artistry of what those story tellers were able to imbue it with. To me, the style isn't any different (IMO) than the corporate "house" style Marvel was pushing in the 60s. Re: Everyone needs to draw as much like Kirby or Romita or whatever, as possible. The guys that worked on those animated books did bring some very different flavors to each other, in terms of storytelling, pacing, and even the way the characters appeared, while still holding onto a certain level of consistency. Think of it like playing the blues. There are rules. THere's a sort of structure you have to stick within. Now do something unique with it. So that's what those guys did. Though as much as anything, I suspect it was probably more about having a regular paycheck to cover the rent. Anybody wanna take a guess at how many comics were created for that reason? And as for the "for kids" comment. Who were all those spandex comics were originally intended for? I get that the spandex books became more as time went on, and the audience kind of grew up with them and into them, to the approaching retirement man-children we are today, but at their beginnings... we all know none of this stuff was never "Art" with a capital A. Edited May 23, 2017 by ESeffinga Additional content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadeGiant Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, RabidFerret said: It feels like the investment market wanted a first appearance to exist and forced one, even though the character was already well established. Agreed. In my mind this is a similar effect that Hulk 181 has for Wolverine. I have never been able to wrap my head around a logical reason that 180 is not widely credited as his first appearance and just came to the conclusion that the dealers, Overstreet, general market, etc. wanted 181 which had wolvie on the cover to be the big ticket item. Edited May 23, 2017 by JadeGiant Lucky Baru 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 8 hours ago, RabidFerret said: It feels like the investment market wanted a first appearance to exist and forced one, even though the character was already well established. Yep. Comic book flippers/speculators wanted it to exist (one of my friends basically lives off of flipping this book), and now certain elements of the OA market also want this to be the Hulk #180/181 of the '90s. Even though there can only be one owner of this particular piece, the higher that piece is valued, the more it raises the ceiling and profile of everything else from that era, and helps to break the stranglehold that vintage art has on mindshare and market share in this hobby. I feel like '90s OA collectors want BA 12 to be their champion, even though I feel that it is a bit of a false idol for all the reasons I've described previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) If that's the case, wouldn't those same 90s collectors bid high because they know that they can raise the value and profile of their entire collection with a single buy? Doesn't your suggestion that the benchmark would be valuable to them imply that this would auction strongly? I mean... hate on the book all you want, I don't care about it either.... but even your own arguments suggest it would auction well don't they? (No need to reply as I believe I know what you will say in response, but I don't think there's any getting around a strong result if it comes to open auction. ) I mean heck if collector A and collector B are both 90s collectors with seven figure collections and collector A owns the cover, and they decide they want to do what you suggested and raise the profile of their collections, they can probably buy the data point for what, 10% or so? A shills it up and B bids to the moon, later resells it to A or they have a side agreement for a fixed price in advance, there's a lot of ways to skin that cat if they don't mind bending the rules and paying the heritage fees Edited May 23, 2017 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delekkerste Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bronty said: If that's the case, wouldn't those same 90s collectors bid high because they know that they can raise the value and profile of their entire collection with a single buy? Doesn't your suggestion that the benchmark would be valuable to them imply that this would auction strongly? I mean... hate on the book all you want, I don't care about it either.... but even your own arguments suggest it would auction well don't they? (No need to reply as I believe I know what you will say in response, but I don't think there's any getting around a strong result if it comes to open auction. ) I mean heck if collector A and collector B are both 90s collectors with seven figure collections and collector A owns the cover, and they decide they want to do what you suggested and raise the profile of their collections, they can probably buy the data point for what, 10% or so? A shills it up and B bids to the moon, later resells it to A or they have a side agreement for a fixed price in advance, there's a lot of ways to skin that cat if they don't mind bending the rules and paying the heritage fees Ho-kay...but, back in the real world, my point was that the smaller fry '90s superhero OA guys would love to see this go gangbusters to put a halo over their little corner of their hobby (which, let's face it, is not widely admired), not that there were two Oleg wannabes with 7-figure collections of '90s art looking to manipulate the market and be willing to flush tens of thousands of dollars in fees and shilling costs to do so (with likely dubious results). It's more of a respect thing than a money thing that I'm talking about. Edited May 23, 2017 by delekkerste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher_Short Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, ESeffinga said: Wondering, have there been many other characters that have jumped INTO the comics from other media, and then gone on to be primarily a comic book character, and then gone on to be really well known? I'm struggling to think of any. I'm sure there have to be some. If so, would those first appearances trigger any kind of premium in the comics or comic OA, considering their origins? That would be X-23, just like Harley, was first featured in the X-Men cartoons. She then appeared in NYX #3 which commands just under 1k for a 9.8 and as you have just seen, a 70k cover of her first appearance (not even mentioning her appearance in the Logan movie) Edited May 23, 2017 by Christopher_Short Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, delekkerste said: Ho-kay...but, back in the real world, my point was that the smaller fry '90s superhero OA guys would love to see this go gangbusters to put a halo over their little corner of their hobby (which, let's face it, is not widely admired), not that there were two Oleg wannabes with 7-figure collections of '90s art looking to manipulate the market and be willing to flush tens of thousands of dollars in fees and shilling costs to do so (with likely dubious results). It's more of a respect thing than a money thing that I'm talking about. Okay Gene, if I misinterpreted your point then I'll give you that one, but you're working far too hard at debating this whole thing when Fish is publicly calling his shot in this thread. Now I don't know him, you probably know him better than I do, but he doesn't come across as someone that wouldn't back it up, and I certainly believe he'd find a dance partner at some six figure level. Love it or hate it, its the first comic appearance of an important character and the market for whatever reason doesn't care that she appeared in a cartoon first. Edited May 23, 2017 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tfish Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Bronty said: Okay Gene, if I misinterpreted your point then I'll give you that one, but you're working far too hard at debating this whole thing when Fish is publicly calling his shot in this thread. Now I don't know him, you probably know him better than I do, but he doesn't come across as someone that wouldn't back it up, and I certainly believe he'd find a dance partner at some six figure level. Love it or hate it, its the first comic appearance of an important character and the market for whatever reason doesn't care that she appeared in a cartoon first. I dont want to dance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 12 minutes ago, tfish said: I dont want to dance But its good for ya! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_and_health I get not wanting to pay too much or worse yet get outbid, and I get that there's only so much you'd want to say publicly, but at the end of the day, you're still interested in it, I presume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...