N e r V Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 2 hours ago, G.A.tor said: I believe action 1 closely followed by Detective 27 are head and shoulders above any other book... All the rest have their place behind. When I was a kid I'd have put Marvel Comics #1 in with those two but times have changed. Just like Fantastic Four #1 was the book over AF #15 way back when. Supes and Bats are nothing if not bullet proof with collectors over time. Both are remarkable books to hold in your hands for the history of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 1 hour ago, N e r V said: When I was a kid I'd have put Marvel Comics #1 in with those two but times have changed. People cared more about comic history than character popularity back then. MC 1 and FF 1 both have strong claims to being the most important comics to the publisher's history. CA 1 is about character introduction. MC 1 and FF 1 are about a bit more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 35 minutes ago, sfcityduck said: People cared more about comic history than character popularity back then. MC 1 and FF 1 both have strong claims to being the most important comics to the publisher's history. CA 1 is about character introduction. MC 1 and FF 1 are about a bit more than that. Your logic truly baffles me. By your line of reasoning, Detective Comics 1 (or even New Comics 1) should be the most valuable and sought after comic books in the world. But they're not. Not even close. Do you know why ? Because the enduring characters that were introduced in Action 1, Tec 27, etc. are what people care about and remember, not trivial pursuit answers that no one outside of the hobby would likely know. -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfcityduck Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jaydogrules said: Your logic truly baffles me. By your line of reasoning, Detective Comics 1 (or even New Comics 1) should be the most valuable and sought after comic books in the world. But they're not. Not even close. Do you know why ? Because the enduring characters that were introduced in Action 1, Tec 27, etc. are what people care about and remember, not trivial pursuit answers that no one outside of the hobby would likely know. -J. You aren't reading my posts. I am explaining why "back then" MC 1 meant more to collectors than CA 1. It was not because back in the 70s and 80s the Human Torch and Subby were more popular than Captain America. They weren't. It was because collectors back then valued the very first Marvel comic (Oct. 1939) more than a comic issued a year and half later (March 1941), after Timely already had several new titles and a bunch of issues had been published. Today, character appearances mean more than comic history in driving value, as do covers. This mentality also explains why back then Detective 1 was ranked higher on the most valuable list "back then" than it is today. You might want to read the posts a bit more closely before you attempt to be patronizing. Edited July 14, 2017 by sfcityduck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 1 hour ago, sfcityduck said: You aren't reading my posts. I am explaining why "back then" MC 1 meant more to collectors than CA 1. It was not because back in the 70s and 80s the Human Torch and Subby were more popular than Captain America. They weren't. It was because collectors back then valued the very first Marvel comic (Oct. 1939) more than a comic issued a year and half later (March 1941), after Timely already had several new titles and a bunch of issues had been published. Today, character appearances mean more than comic history in driving value, as do covers. This mentality also explains why back then Detective 1 was ranked higher on the most valuable list "back then" than it is today. You might want to read the posts a bit more closely before you attempt to be patronizing. Marvel 1 in the 70s/80s put cap to bed. 10 years ago Cap 1 was a cheap book. I sold my VG unrestored for around 10k. I told Vincent book was so unpopular that I never thought to call him. Marvel 1 has always been in demand. I would think the movies did Cap a huge bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstances Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 5 minutes ago, woowoo said: Marvel 1 in the 70s/80s put cap to bed. 10 years ago Cap 1 was a cheap book. I sold my VG unrestored for around 10k. I told Vincent book was so unpopular that I never thought to call him. Marvel 1 has always been in demand. I would think the movies did Cap a huge bump. yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, woowoo said: Marvel 1 in the 70s/80s put cap to bed. 10 years ago Cap 1 was a cheap book. I sold my VG unrestored for around 10k. I told Vincent book was so unpopular that I never thought to call him. Marvel 1 has always been in demand. I would think the movies did Cap a huge bump. Uh, movies/tv gave the entire hobby a huge bump, and almost everything was "cheap" just 10 years ago. Yup. -J. Edited July 14, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 10 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: Uh, movies/tv gave the entire hobby a huge bump, and almost everything was "cheap" just 10 years ago. Yup. -J. Entire hobby ? where is the Marvel 1 movie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 1 minute ago, woowoo said: Entire hobby ? where is the Marvel 1 movie The entire basis for what makes Marvel 1 important is that it started the "Marvel Universe" (even though no one says that or chases Detecitve Comics 1 for that same reason). I understand that it's not Marvel 1's fault that it contains no significant first appearances and that no movie can "help it" like movies/tv have myriad other characters across every Age of comic. But then again, it's also not Cap 1's (or Bats 1 or AS 8, etc) fault that the market prefers chasing major character first appearances above most everything else now either, is it? -J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstances Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 The first appearance of The Human Torch, and first mainstream appearance of Sub-Mariner (with the story from MPFW expanded by four pages) both in one comic, and the first of the publisher, seems extremely significant to me. I want Detective Comics #1, because it's Detective Comics #1. If I wanted the first of the publisher (which I do), I would be going after New Fun #1. But it can't hold a candle to Marvel Comics #1 in my eyes because of the reasons I gave above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woowoo Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 15 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: The entire basis for what makes Marvel 1 important is that it started the "Marvel Universe" (even though no one says that or chases Detecitve Comics 1 for that same reason). I understand that it's not Marvel 1's fault that it contains no significant first appearances and that no movie can "help it" like movies/tv have myriad other characters across every Age of comic. But then again, it's also not Cap 1's (or Bats 1 or AS 8, etc) fault that the market prefers chasing major character first appearances above most everything else now either, is it? -J. Wow really. The Human Torch- Sub-Mariner circumstances 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, woowoo said: Wow really. The Human Torch- Sub-Mariner The "Human Torch" that was replaced 50 years ago by Johnny Storm, and the Submariner that actually first appeared in Motion Picture Funnies Weekly? -J. Edited July 15, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstances Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said: The "Human Torch" that was replaced 50 years ago by Johnny Storm, and the Submariner that actually first appeared in Motion Picture Funnies Weekly? -J. Yes. Them. Phenomenal, significant characters regardless of what is currently going on with them. No GA Human Torch, no Johnny Storm Human Torch (and probably no FF). Not that that has any impact on the character's coolness from 1939 through the end of the golden age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, circumstances said: Yes. Them. Phenomenal, significant characters regardless of what is currently going on with them. No GA Human Torch, no Johnny Storm Human Torch (and probably no FF). Not that that has any impact on the character's coolness from 1939 through the end of the golden age. The Human Torch is a completely different character that simply shares the same hero name , a la the Flash and the Green Lantern in the DC universe. So Yes an earlier character named the "Human Torch" that was actually an android and had nothing to do with the Fantastic Four 20 years later first appeared in Marvel Comics 1. Meanwhile the Submariner did not first appear there at all. And you wonder why Cap 1 ultimately passed it the way Tec 27, Action 1 and many other DC books have passed Tec 1. -J. Edited July 15, 2017 by Jaydogrules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstances Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 I don't wonder. Cap 1 is awesome. And I said earlier it was the first mainstream appearance of the Sub-Mariner, expanded from MPFW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydogrules Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 13 minutes ago, circumstances said: I don't wonder. Cap 1 is awesome. And I said earlier it was the first mainstream appearance of the Sub-Mariner, expanded from MPFW. They're all awesome. -J. circumstances 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 15, 2017 Author Share Posted July 15, 2017 If FMV-hierarchy were constructed, mostly, by what is popular and relevant today, Action Comics #1 would not sell for nearly as much as Detective Comics #27, let alone more. I have no idea how Pep Comics #22 would keep up with some of the most desirable Batman comics and books like Suspense #3 and Fantastic #3 wouldn't sell for much at all. Yes, the hierarchy is shifting, but it's not at all purely based on the character's modern day popularity. It helps, but comic book collectors are influenced by a number of other factors. Knightsofold, Chicago Boy, jabats and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne-Tec Posted July 15, 2017 Author Share Posted July 15, 2017 I'm for Cap #1 over Marvel #1, but that doesn't mean that we need to belittle Marvel #1 to make that point. Cap #1 has enough going for it and can stand on its own two legs. Even though Cap #1 is my pick for the top GA Timely, it is very close. To play devil's advocate, I'm going to make the argument for Marvel #1. Rarity is a huge factor and even if you argue that the demand for Cap #1, based on popularity, films and modern day relevance, is enough to keep it at the top, we are collectors and rarity is important to us. It's why many of us pick GA over SA. Not because the creative content is better per se, but because scarcity drives the thrill of the hunt and provides satisfaction for success. If I said that there are three copies of Cap #1 for every copy of Marvel #1, I'm being generous. If you choose to look at OCT copies as the only true "first printing" copies, we're probably talking 10+ copies of Cap #1 for every OCT Marvel #1. That holds weight. Comparing characters, yes, Captain America tops the Human Torch and Sub-Mariner. Heck, Bucky (the eventual Winter Soldier) probably tops the Human Torch and Sub-Mariner. But you know what? The Human Torch and Sub-Mariner are two awfully cool characters in their own right. Everett's work on Namor's origin is classic, prime, GA brilliance. I don't consider MPFW a newsstand book, so Marvel #1 can hold the distinction as first newsstand appearance. You can't knock the Sub-Mariner, then pretend that the distinction between MPFW/Marvel #1 makes a big difference. In the end, it's more about the birth of the Marvel Universe. Every time that Marvel logo flashes at the beginning of a zillion-dollar film, it traces its origin back, not to Cap #1 or AF #15, but to Marvel Comics #1. I may be in the minority, but Marvel Comics #1 has crossed my mind when I'm in theaters, appreciating a MCU-film. It's status as a Top-3, and at points, No. 1 book in the past also holds weight. That doesn't make it the No. 1 book today, but to me as a 28 year-old collector, it would matter, holding a Marvel #1, to note that it was once the most desirable comic book in the world. Collector's in the 1970s weren't crazy, there was a lot of substance to the FMV of old, arguably, more so than there is today. The combination of the aforementioned is enough to not only make an argument for Marvel #1 over Cap #1, but to make an argument for its place in Tier-1 alongside Action #1 and Tec #27. jabats, Knightsofold, sfcityduck and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstances Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 I still personally prefer a Marvel Comics 1 to a Cap 1 today. Especially an October. Value aside. Just personal preference. sfcityduck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lou_fine Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 1 hour ago, circumstances said: I still personally prefer a Marvel Comics 1 to a Cap 1 today. Especially an October. Value aside. Just personal preference. I guess we must be showing our age. For my money and in equivalent condition, it would be no contest as I would take the Marvel 1 over the Cap 1 any day of the week. From my point of view: (Significance + historical popularity + rarity) > (Significance + more popularity right now + relative availability) circumstances and sfcityduck 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
