Hierarchy of Golden Age Comics (2017 Edition) 1 1

[Knightsofold]

3 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Never thought of it this way.  The market value of all extant Incredible Hulk 181s also could exceed all extant Action 1s. 

But, so what?  The market value of all Toyota Prius cars likely exceeds the market value of all Tesla Model 3s.  But I'd rather drive a Tesla than a Prius and own an Action 1 than a Hulk 181. 

Good point, no comic shop would trade me a super hot book for a whole truckload of quarter bin drek.  

[sfcityduck]

Here's my question:  In the lower grades do the cover centric books take a comparative hit as opposed to non-cover centric books?  I mean, if the point of the book is the cover, then wouldn't it take a comparatively bigger hit in low grades than a book where the point is not the cover?  What's the point of a coverless Suspense 3?  What's better, a coverless D 33 or D 31?  Seems like the same logic might hold for books in lower grades with major cover flaws.   

[Wayne-Tec]

I believe one of the strongest tests of a book's depth is how it performs in lower grades, 1.0's, coverless, even single pages. 

Obviously if cost were not a factor, we'd all prefer higher graded copies. It's natural for a book to be more desirable in better condition.

But if a book becomes 10/10 desirable only "if":

• It's in high grade (Amazing Fantasy #15).
• The front cover displays well (Suspense #3).

...what does that tell us about a book's depth?

Put it this way: How many multiples of Action #1 (1.0) FMV does it take to reach FMV of the highest graded example (9.0)?

30x, 40x, 50x?

How many multiples of Amazing Fantasy #15 (1.0) FMV does it take to reach the FMV of the highest graded example (9.6)?

200x, 300x?

In respects to cover-centric books with forgettable interiors: How many multiples of Action #1 (coverless) does it take to reach FMV for the highest graded example? How many multiples of Suspense #3 (coverless) to reach the same?

Edited July 12, 2017 by Wayne-Tec

[Wayne-Tec]

Seeing Amazing Fantasy #15 and Showcase #4 ranked amongst GA books is dicey.

As I stated in my original post, if we were just talking about historical significance, our lists would look drastically different. We could also debate the different types of historical significance. Fantastic Four #1 could top Amazing Fantasy #15 because it was the birth of the modern day Marvel Universe, but considering Spider-Man's popularity and impact, the latter ranks higher for me. Showcase #4 could top all SA books due to it kickstarting the next wave of superhero genre, but I'd still rank Amazing Fantasy #15 ahead of it.

From a standpoint of historical significance, Amazing Fantasy #15 would not only be Tier-1, it would also rank ahead of Detective Comics #27. The two characters may be neck-and-neck as it pertains to popularity, but Spider-Man was a more innovative creation IMO and there's far greater depth to the story "With great power comes great responsibility" (AF #15) than "A fitting end for his kind" (Tec #27).
 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Wayne-Tec

[Wayne-Tec]

10 hours ago, woowoo said:

All-Star Comics #8

All-American Comics #16

The 8 ahead of 16

If we're strictly talking impact of the main character, there is absolutely no comparison. Wonder Woman 8 days a week over Alan Scott's Green Lantern.

At the same time, I don't dismiss Alan Scott as "not the Green Lantern people care about." At face-value, that is true, but I think we can delve deeper. Origin-wise, he's different. Costume-wise, he's different. But the general look (short mask, lantern logo on chest) and power ring do still remain. Wonder Woman in All-Star #8 looks a lot more like Wonder Woman today than Green Lantern from All-American #16 looks like the Hal Jordan version of the character today, but it's not an entire world of difference and there is a lot about Wonder Woman that has changed too.

It's important to remember, these character's evolve. Siegel and Shuster's Superman, at times, made absolutely no effort to conceal his secret identity. He dressed up like a miner and crashed a party, he crashed head-on into a moving car, out of costume, so he could intentionally get himself imprisoned. Bob Kane's Batman took lives, joked about doing so and even sported a gun holster on the cover of the very issue that first introduced his origin with his family being murdered. Superman and Batman today, in many ways, are very different than their original incarnations. So too is Green Lantern, to a greater degree of course.

All-American Comics #16 has a lot going for it. That's not to overlook the obvious, that All-Star Comics #8 does too. But in terms of the following:

• Rarity
• Status as a "big time" book over the years
• Classic cover

...I think All-American Comics #16 tops All-Star Comics #8. On my list, they're ranked on the same tier (Tier-4), and I think a strong argument could be made for either.

[woowoo]

40 minutes ago, Wayne-Tec said:

If we're strictly talking impact of the main character, there is absolutely no comparison. Wonder Woman 8 days a week over Alan Scott's Green Lantern.

At the same time, I don't dismiss Alan Scott as "not the Green Lantern people care about." At face-value, that is true, but I think we can delve deeper. Origin-wise, he's different. Costume-wise, he's different. But the general look (short mask, lantern logo on chest) and power ring do still remain. Wonder Woman in All-Star #8 looks a lot more like Wonder Woman today than Green Lantern from All-American #16 looks like the Hal Jordan version of the character today, but it's not an entire world of difference and there is a lot about Wonder Woman that has changed too.

It's important to remember, these character's evolve. Siegel and Shuster's Superman, at times, made absolutely no effort to conceal his secret identity. He dressed up like a miner and crashed a party, he crashed head-on into a moving car, out of costume, so he could intentionally get himself imprisoned. Bob Kane's Batman took lives, joked about doing so and even sported a gun holster on the cover of the very issue that first introduced his origin with his family being murdered. Superman and Batman today, in many ways, are very different than their original incarnations. So too is Green Lantern, to a greater degree of course.

All-American Comics #16 has a lot going for it. That's not to overlook the obvious, that All-Star Comics #8 does too. But in terms of the following:

• Rarity
• Status as a "big time" book over the years
• Classic cover

...I think All-American Comics #16 tops All-Star Comics #8. On my list, they're ranked on the same tier (Tier-4), and I think a strong argument could be made for either.

Right now no way. Wonder woman way way way ahead

[G.A.tor]

47 minutes ago, Wayne-Tec said:

If we're strictly talking impact of the main character, there is absolutely no comparison. Wonder Woman 8 days a week over Alan Scott's Green Lantern.

At the same time, I don't dismiss Alan Scott as "not the Green Lantern people care about." At face-value, that is true, but I think we can delve deeper. Origin-wise, he's different. Costume-wise, he's different. But the general look (short mask, lantern logo on chest) and power ring do still remain. Wonder Woman in All-Star #8 looks a lot more like Wonder Woman today than Green Lantern from All-American #16 looks like the Hal Jordan version of the character today, but it's not an entire world of difference and there is a lot about Wonder Woman that has changed too.

It's important to remember, these character's evolve. Siegel and Shuster's Superman, at times, made absolutely no effort to conceal his secret identity. He dressed up like a miner and crashed a party, he crashed head-on into a moving car, out of costume, so he could intentionally get himself imprisoned. Bob Kane's Batman took lives, joked about doing so and even sported a gun holster on the cover of the very issue that first introduced his origin with his family being murdered. Superman and Batman today, in many ways, are very different than their original incarnations. So too is Green Lantern, to a greater degree of course.

All-American Comics #16 has a lot going for it. That's not to overlook the obvious, that All-Star Comics #8 does too. But in terms of the following:

• Rarity
• Status as a "big time" book over the years
• Classic cover

...I think All-American Comics #16 tops All-Star Comics #8. On my list, they're ranked on the same tier (Tier-4), and I think a strong argument could be made for either.

while the cover to AS8 is nothing to write home about, the cover to AA 16 stinks compared to just about every GA key..classic? not in my book..lets call it what it is...lame..... sure, its rare, but most all GA keys are rare (just different degrees)

and yes, it's had its day in the sun...but so have other former "big" books that just aren't "big" any more...

sorry to bubble burst, but you can't convince me that AA 16 can even carry WW jockstrap these days

 

[Wayne-Tec]

7 minutes ago, woowoo said:

Right now no way. Wonder woman way way way ahead

FMV-wise, I suspect you'd be correct. In terms of historical significance also. But I don't think the factors I listed above amount to nothing. It's enough to put them on the same tier, IMO, for now.

[G.A.tor]

Just now, Wayne-Tec said:

FMV-wise, I suspect you'd be correct. In terms of historical significance also. But I don't think the factors I listed above amount to nothing. It's enough to put them on the same tier, IMO, for now.

that's the beauty of opinions, you are entitled to one, as we are all...but, opinions can still be wrong

[Wayne-Tec]

29 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

while the cover to AS8 is nothing to write home about, the cover to AA 16 stinks compared to just about every GA key..classic? not in my book..lets call it what it is...lame..... sure, its rare, but most all GA keys are rare (just different degrees)

and yes, it's had its day in the sun...but so have other former "big" books that just aren't "big" any more...

sorry to bubble burst, but you can't convince me that AA 16 can even carry WW jockstrap these days

 

I personally love the cover of All-American Comics #16.

[G.A.tor]

13 minutes ago, Wayne-Tec said:

I personally love the cover of All-American Comics #16.

And that makes this hobby diverse and great

ive owned 7 copies of aa16. Never loved the cover..,

[Knightsofold]

2 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

And that makes this hobby diverse and great

ive owned 7 copies of aa16. Never loved the cover..,

What's your opinion of AF15 and SC4's tier placement in our rankings here?

[gino2paulus2]

5 hours ago, PopKulture said:

I'm not saying that... necessarily. The point had been made that ALL the AF15's are possibly/probably worth more than ALL the Action 1's.

I would take a high grade AF15 over a high grade Batman 1 or the Tec31, as neither are close to Bat's first appearance, and the Action 7, again, not Supe's first appearance. And it's tough to argue that Whiz 2 or AS8 is as important as AF15 (they aren't). So, yes, in low to mid grade, there are just too many AF15's to justify it being more desirable than all the Tier 2 books listed, but as the grade climbs, the margins narrow rapidly.

How about this: put the highest graded AS8, Whiz2 or even Tec31 or Action 7 on a table next to the highest graded AF15 (is there a 9.8 yet?) and ask all the attendees at SDCC or one of the big cons which book they would choose. I dare say it won't even be close!

p.s. And I'm not a ravenous silver age guy or something. I'm just looking at the historical importance of the books.

You may not be a ravenous silver age guy but you are indeed a crazy person  (said in fun fashioned way)

I don't follow the high grade books as much and everyone here knows me as a low grade snob but that comment is just silly isn't it? If both books were say 9.2 grade the AF 15 would be what a 400K book? How about the Bats #1 in 9.2? I would think at least 600K. You cant go putting 9.8s against 9.0s either. If both books were in the same condition you would honestly take the AF15?? Is there some sort of joke I am not in on around here lately?!!

[Chicago Boy]

1 hour ago, G.A.tor said:

And that makes this hobby diverse and great

ive owned 7 copies of aa16. Never loved the cover..,

G.A. tor, What's your best guess as to how many copies of AA16 survived ?  Curious as well as to your thoughts on the following:

If the highest AS 8 on the census recently sold for 411k (yes tied with another 9.0 ) what do you think Verzyl's lone high copy would garner ? 

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Chicago Boy

[Jaydogrules]

1 hour ago, gino2paulus2 said:

You may not be a ravenous silver age guy but you are indeed a crazy person  (said in fun fashioned way)

I don't follow the high grade books as much and everyone here knows me as a low grade snob but that comment is just silly isn't it? If both books were say 9.2 grade the AF 15 would be what a 400K book? How about the Bats #1 in 9.2? I would think at least 600K. You cant go putting 9.8s against 9.0s either. If both books were in the same condition you would honestly take the AF15?? Is there some sort of joke I am not in on around here lately?!!

Content wise, AF 15 is a much more significant book than Batman 1, and quite rare in its own right in a 9.2 grade. Nothing crazy about someone preferring that in high grade over a Batman 1.

Change the Batman 1 to a Tec 27 and the conversation is different.  

-J.

[PopKulture]

1 hour ago, Jaydogrules said:

Change the Batman 1 to a Tec 27 and the conversation is different.  

-J.

Agreed. That's part of the underlying argument implicit in an AF15 vs. Batman 1 throwdown: Spiderman's origin and first appearance against what, Batman's 13th or 14th? A more appropriate match-up might then be Batman 1 versus ASM 1, both the premiere issue of well-deserved solo runs.

[PopKulture]

3 hours ago, gino2paulus2 said:

You may not be a ravenous silver age guy but you are indeed a crazy person  (said in fun fashioned way)

Crazy about comics!

[gino2paulus2]

4 hours ago, PopKulture said:

Crazy about comics!

I can dig that!! ?

[G.A.tor]

7 hours ago, Knightsofold said:

What's your opinion of AF15 and SC4's tier placement in our rankings here?

They are silver age and have no place in a golden age hierarchy 

[G.A.tor]

6 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

G.A. tor, What's your best guess as to how many copies of AA16 survived ?  Curious as well as to your thoughts on the following:

If the highest AS 8 on the census recently sold for 411k (yes tied with another 9.0 ) what do you think Verzyl's lone high copy would garner ? 

 

I know verzyl wants like 2 mil for it

But that's an outlier, "unique" book

ive seen a lot of aa16 over the years. As mentioned I think we owned 5 at one time and 7 within a year of each other 

so maybe 150-200 or so copies (just guessing)

Edited July 12, 2017 by G.A.tor