Hierarchy of Golden Age Comics (2017 Edition) 1 1

[ComicConnoisseur]

15 hours ago, jabats said:

That was before my time as a collector. But as a "relatively" newbie collector (5 years collecting as an adult), my impression has been that EC is "hot". 

Not like it has any mega keys competing with GA DC superhero books. But the random pre-code issues (especially horror) seem to have strong demand for them. Were these EC books in higher demand in the 80s?

Yes, as those were considered the blue chips of blue chips in the late 70s and 80s. People back then thought EC Comics and Barks comics were actually a better bet than Marvel silver age keys. I think Robert Overstreet and Steve Geppi use to get into bidding wars over the EC Comics and Barks comics.

[Wayne-Tec]

7 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

It already is. "Tier 1" can't be and isn't just composed of DC.

-J.

For a book to be in the same tier (just my opinion) it has to be nearly equal overall in caliber and if it's not, it needs to possess something that other books in the tier do not have. Cap #1 is my top Marvel Comic, of all-time, but just because Action #1 and Tec #27 are Tier-1 books doesn't mean I can add the top Marvel book for the sake of keeping things close. I'll give you that it's the better illustrated cover, that it has the combo of 1st appearance of the hero, origin of the hero and 1st appearance of the hero's arch nemesis (imagine of Joker's 1st appearance was in Tec #27 too), but being a late 1940 book, being a more common book and because Cap lags behind Superman and Batman historically, it's Tier-2.

[sfcityduck]

4 minutes ago, Wayne-Tec said:

I'll give you that it's the better illustrated cover, that it has the combo of 1st appearance of the hero, origin of the hero and 1st appearance of the hero's arch nemesis (imagine of Joker's 1st appearance was in Tec #27 too), but being a late 1940 book, being a more common book and because Cap lags behind Superman and Batman historically, it's Tier-2.

You actually are making a good argument for Whiz 2:  1st appearance of Captain Marvel, origin of Captain Marvel, 1st appearance of his arch-nemesis Dr. Silvana (is it also the first Fawcett comic?).  And Captain Marvel was a much bigger pop culture sensation from 1940 to the mid-1950s than Captain America.  CM was the most popular superhero of the GA and the fist to be put into a movie serial in 1941.  So the historical import cannot be doubted.  Especially when you factor in how the lawsuits impacted the industry.  If not for the lawsuits putting CM out of business, he might well have had an uninterrupted run to the present.  Aside from the 1941 serial, he was also on radio, the inspiration for a 1950 movie, and, after revival in 1972, was a 1973 tv show.   (In contrast, CA's original run didn't make it to the 1950s, and the Atlas CA revival of 1954 flopped, as he didn't even have the popularity of Subby).     

[Wayne-Tec]

10 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

You actually are making a good argument for Whiz 2:  1st appearance of Captain Marvel, origin of Captain Marvel, 1st appearance of his arch-nemesis Dr. Silvana (is it also the first Fawcett comic?).  And Captain Marvel was a much bigger pop culture sensation from 1940 to the mid-1950s than Captain America.  CM was the most popular superhero of the GA and the fist to be put into a movie serial in 1941.  So the historical import cannot be doubted.  Especially when you factor in how the lawsuits impacted the industry.  If not for the lawsuits putting CM out of business, he might well have had an uninterrupted run to the present.  Aside from the 1941 serial, he was also on radio, the inspiration for a 1950 movie, and, after revival in 1972, was a 1973 tv show.   (In contrast, CA's original run didn't make it to the 1950s, and the Atlas CA revival of 1954 flopped, as he didn't even have the popularity of Subby).     

I touched on the historical significance of Captain Marvel back in 2011, here: LINK

[Jaydogrules]

34 minutes ago, Wayne-Tec said:

For a book to be in the same tier (just my opinion) it has to be nearly equal overall in caliber and if it's not, it needs to possess something that other books in the tier do not have. Cap #1 is my top Marvel Comic, of all-time, but just because Action #1 and Tec #27 are Tier-1 books doesn't mean I can add the top Marvel book for the sake of keeping things close. I'll give you that it's the better illustrated cover, that it has the combo of 1st appearance of the hero, origin of the hero and 1st appearance of the hero's arch nemesis (imagine of Joker's 1st appearance was in Tec #27 too), but being a late 1940 book, being a more common book and because Cap lags behind Superman and Batman historically, it's Tier-2.

Superman being the first will always make Action 1 a tier 1 book by default, and Tec 27 because...well because it's Batman.   As for captain America being less popular than superman in this era ?  I don't know about that.  

And my point about cap 1 being a tier 1 isn't actually tied to popularity or even value.  Cap 1 is one of the first Timely creations that's still actually relevant today.  He is basically their only GA hero holdover, essentially unchanged since his creation (not counting the junk Nick Spencer has been doing lately).  That's very significant to Timely/Marvel collectors, and as the top Timely it deserves a spot in the tier 1, irrespective of the reasons why Action 1 and Tec 27 are there IMO.

-J.

[Wayne-Tec]

That old post led me to this:

 

1970 Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide (Values in "Mint")

1. $300: Action Comics #1

2. $275: Detective Comics #27

T-3. $250: Superman #1

T-3. $250: Marvel Comics #1

5. $235: Whiz Comics #2 (#1)

6. $175: Batman #1

7. $150: Captain America Comics #1

8. $135: All-Star Comics #3

9. $125: Flash Comics #1

10. $100: More Fun Comics #52

 

Pretty solid list.

[Wayne-Tec]

8 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

Superman being the first will always make Action 1 a tier 1 book by default, and Tec 27 because...well because it's Batman.   As for captain America being less popular than superman in this era ?  I don't know about that.  

And my point about cap 1 being a tier 1 isn't actually tied to popularity or even value.  Cap 1 is one of the first Timely creations that's still actually relevant today.  He is basically their only GA hero holdover, essentially unchanged since his creation (not counting the junk Nick Spencer has been doing lately).  That's very significant to Timely/Marvel collectors, and as the top Timely it deserves a spot in the tier 1, irrespective of the reasons why Action 1 and Tec 27 are there IMO.

-J.

I'm not talking about popularity today, I'm talking about "cumulative popularity." You could make a strong argument for Captain America > Superman today. Look at how the Winter Soldier performed at the box office/critically vs. Man of Steel. I also give the results of this generation a little more weight because more is invested into these characters now than ever before. Being the No. 1 superhero in the world in 2017 might have a greater effect than being the No. 1 superhero in the world in 1971. So if Captain America is, arguably, more popular today, that absolutely counts for something. There's a difference between popularity and recognizability too. Superman is champion of the latter.

But with respect to cumulative popularity, even with Superman slipping, it's nowhere near enough for Captain America to move past him if we're taking inventory of 1938-2017. There's no way to perfectly measure this of course, but I think you get the idea. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Wayne-Tec

[PopKulture]

A sidebar to the Batman v. Captain America equivalency:

What if Frank Miller never revived the Batman franchise and Bats was eternally relegated to collecting oversized trophies, jumping on oversized cash registers and typewriters, and showing up first as Rainbow Batman, then Zebra Batman, or Batman Jungle Lord, etc., issue after issue. Would Tec27 then be a (strong) Tier 2 book?

I remember hearing as a kid some anecdote about DuPont's system for bonuses and compensation, that the guy who invented Teflon, got a big (regular) bonus and then the big BIG (lifetime) bonus. Don't DC execs owe Miller a Bat-Cave on each coast with a mattress filled with $100 bills to sleep on for lifetime achievement?

Of course it's likely there would've been a Batman reboot by another's hand, but it's tough to imagine it would've had any more lasting impact on a character's popularity - and collectability - than Byrne on Superman (about the same era).

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, PopKulture said:

Don't DC execs owe Miller a Bat-Cave on each coast with a mattress filled with $100 bills to sleep on for lifetime achievement?

On a relative basis, probably not as I believe that Miller got very well compensated for his critically acclaimed, but rather short and limited work on the Batman series of books.  He certainly gained a ton of fame and notoriety out of it however, and managed to use it as a stepping stone to much bigger and better things in the entertainment sphere. 

No, the DC execs really owe a ton to Siegel, Shuster, and Finger for their initial creation and continuing work on the Superman and Batman characters in the first place, instead of leaving them pretty much destitute on their death beds.   

Edited July 14, 2017 by lou_fine

[PopKulture]

3 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

No, the DC execs really owe a ton to Siegel, Shuster, and Finger for their initial creation and continuing work on the Superman and Batman characters in the first place, instead of leaving them pretty much destitute on their death beds.   

That is shameful! Were they really destitute? What a pity. Kirby is the example that seems to get the most attention...

Is it the work of their attorneys saying "give them nothing" because it might open the floodgates to legal actions, like an admission of sorts?

Today's creative personnel indeed have it a lot better than their predecessors.

[lou_fine]

52 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

59 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

No, the DC execs really owe a ton to Siegel, Shuster, and Finger for their initial creation and continuing work on the Superman and Batman characters in the first place, instead of leaving them pretty much destitute on their death beds.   

That is shameful! Were they really destitute? What a pity. Kirby is the example that seems to get the most attention...

Is it the work of their attorneys saying "give them nothing" because it might open the floodgates to legal actions, like an admission of sorts?

Today's creative personnel indeed have it a lot better than their predecessors.

Noticed how I conveniently and accurately left Bob Kane out of this group who was able to live the playboy life of a real Bruce Wayne and convorted with Hollywood actresses while doing no real work  throughout all of this.

Bob Kane, one of the real dirty snakes in all of this who stole all of the credit from Bill Finger who was the real and true creator of the Batman character.  Kane who then went on to throw the other 3 under the huge DC bus years later come contract renegotiation time just so he could continue to enjoy his exclusive playboy lifestyle.     

Edited July 14, 2017 by lou_fine

[telerites]

6 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Noticed how I conveniently and accurately left Bob Kane out of this group who was able to live the playboy life of a real Bruce Wayne and convorted with Hollywood actresses while doing no real work  throughout all of this.

Bob Kane, one of the real dirty snakes in all of this who stole all of the credit from Bill Finger who was the real and true creator of the Batman character.  Kane who then went on to throw the other 3 under the huge DC bus years later come contract renegotiation time just so he could continue to enjoy his exclusive playboy lifestyle.     

While I agree Bob Kane wasn't the most honorable and had a huge ego and probably deserved the Biatch-slap from Steranko, I wouldn't say Bill Finger was the real and true creator of Bats.  Kane had the idea and initial sketches done before going to Finger, didn't he?  Finger improved upon Kane's draft and had significant impact and creativity in development.  Kane should have been honorable and tagged Finger in the creation byline or perhaps Finger should have demanded it.  But at that, who knew how popular and lucrative the character/industry would become.  Kane I assume had the business foresight to forever attach his name to the creation.  Isn't this similar to the Lee/Kirby controversy of Lee being the idea-man and Kirby fleshing everything out?

 

 

[G.A.tor]

I believe action 1 closely followed by Detective 27 are head and shoulders above any other book...

All the rest have their place behind. 

[sfcityduck]

12 hours ago, PopKulture said:

A sidebar to the Batman v. Captain America equivalency:

What if Frank Miller never revived the Batman franchise and Bats was eternally relegated to collecting oversized trophies, jumping on oversized cash registers and typewriters, and showing up first as Rainbow Batman, then Zebra Batman, or Batman Jungle Lord, etc., issue after issue. Would Tec27 then be a (strong) Tier 2 book?

I remember hearing as a kid some anecdote about DuPont's system for bonuses and compensation, that the guy who invented Teflon, got a big (regular) bonus and then the big BIG (lifetime) bonus. Don't DC execs owe Miller a Bat-Cave on each coast with a mattress filled with $100 bills to sleep on for lifetime achievement?

Of course it's likely there would've been a Batman reboot by another's hand, but it's tough to imagine it would've had any more lasting impact on a character's popularity - and collectability - than Byrne on Superman (about the same era).

Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams, Stephen Englehart, Marshall Rogers, Giordano and many others would view your history of Batman, which basically skips from the Bill Finger days to Miller as grossly inaccurate.  Although I will say that Englehart and Rogers did an excellent giant typewriter story!  But Detective 457 probably is the real blueprint for Miller's version of Batman.

Edited July 14, 2017 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

13 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

 

And my point about cap 1 being a tier 1 isn't actually tied to popularity or even value.  Cap 1 is one of the first Timely creations that's still actually relevant today.  He is basically their only GA hero holdover, essentially unchanged since his creation (not counting the junk Nick Spencer has been doing lately).  That's very significant to Timely/Marvel collectors, and as the top Timely it deserves a spot in the tier 1, irrespective of the reasons why Action 1 and Tec 27 are there IMO.

-J.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but I don't find the notion that CA 1 belongs in Tier 1 as "affirmative action" to achieve equality for Marvel zombies at all persuasive.

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, telerites said:

Kane had the idea and initial sketches done before going to Finger, didn't he?

Yes, he did......if I remembered correctly, he came to Finger with some silly bright red costumed figure with mechanical wings or something like that and called him Bird-Man. 

[telerites]

1 minute ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, he did......if I remembered correctly, he came to Finger with some silly bright red costumed figure with mechanical wings or something like that and called him Bird-Man. 

But, but, they made a profitable movie about Birdman a few years ago.  

[lou_fine]

31 minutes ago, telerites said:

35 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, he did......if I remembered correctly, he came to Finger with some silly bright red costumed figure with mechanical wings or something like that and called him Bird-Man. 

But, but, they made a profitable movie about Birdman a few years ago.  

Yes, and I certainly hope that Bob Kane's estate went after them for rights and royalties also. 

[Sqeggs]

I'll put in a vote for Pep 22.  Clearly has the drawback that Archie is not on the cover (or even mentioned on it) and the MLJ heroes who are on the cover weren't big time then and are obscure to most modern fans.

And yet ... Novick's cover is very good, imo, and evocative of early WW II (technically prewar) covers, and Archie is one of the handful of greatest pop culture creations to come out of comics.  And the book has always been crazy hard to find in any shape, much less in grade.  Imo, the difficulty of locating a copy compared with any of the other books mentioned (with the exception of Suspense 3) adds to its iconic status (iconicness? iconicity? iconicallity?)

I just don't think you can put together a hierarchy of GA comics and not include Pep 22.

[Jaydogrules]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but I don't find the notion that CA 1 belongs in Tier 1 as "affirmative action" to achieve equality for Marvel zombies at all persuasive.

There is certainly more to my point than that , and yes everyone is entitled to their opinion, which obviously includes you.  

-J.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Jaydogrules