Justice League - restarting the thread 1 1

[prez]

5 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Read the end of the article.

Warner Bros. believes that “Justice League” succeeded in one importantly respect: it effectively introduced Flash (a quippy speedster played by Ezra Miller) and Aquaman (the king of Atlantis, portrayed by Jason Momoa). A solo “Aquaman” is due out in 2018 and Warners is still developing a standalone Flash adventure. Going forward, Warner Bros. is planning a sequel to “Wonder Woman” that’s believed to be set in the Cold War, and New Line has greenlit a “Shazam” feature.

DC has to say that as both Flash and Aquaman have confirmed movies.

[VintageComics]

On 12/3/2017 at 12:38 PM, drotto said:

All comes back to controlling the budget.  If this was a $150 million movie people would be dancing for joy. A massive problem with JL has turned out to be the ballooning budget.  It was a failure of management to keep costs down, and partially the director who tends to be overambitious, and is poor at self editing.  The studios (all of them) need to establish somewhat stronger guidelines, and say the movie needs to be about 2 hours long and needs to hit a $200 million budget. Then you avoid what appears to have been a piece of the problem with both BvS and JL.  A director creating a 3 1/2 hr plus movie then going ahead and shooting a 3 1/2 hour movie. Knowing that a lot of that is going to be very expensive footage that has no hope of being used.  That is tons of wasted money, and then leads to big problems in the editing room.  How do you cram 3 1/2 hours of story into a now mandated 2 hours while maintaining a cohesive story, without plot holes, and satisfying multi character arcs? That is a very hard job to accomplish. It shows a management failure at multiple levels, and sets a film up for failure.

 

IF everyone was on the same page from the start, so many issues could have been avoided.  

Agreed.

That's what I said about BVS as well. Too much movie for the short time allowed.

WB would have done much better to split these two movies into multiple separate movies (maybe 4).

[rjrjr]

I saw this movie recently.  I liked Man of Steel and Batman vs. Superman.  I really loved Wonder Woman.  I didn't love Justice League.  I would say Justice League was more like Avenger: Age of Ultron that Avengers.  Both were a squandered opportunity at something that should have been great.

My biggest beef with Justice League (and most of these superhero movies) is there is no emotional attachment to these characters.  The only recent superhero movie that I was emotionally attached to the characters was Guardians of the Galaxy.  Peter Quill and Gamora had chemistry and their characters were terrific.  You cared about Rocket and Groot.  This movie had heart.  The first 2 Spider-Man movies also have that attachment.  We cared about what happened to Peter Parker and Mary Jane.  Again, heart.  The first Captain America had it with Steve Rogers and Peggy Carter.  That movie's ending hit you like a ton of bricks.  More heart.

I don't get it.  This movie bring back Superman from the dead and this should have been a huge emotional scene.  It fell flat like when Pa Kent died in MoS.  Instead of spending all this money on special effects, these studios should be spending money on writers who are able to get audiences to become emotionally attached to these characters.  Having most of the battles take place in the middle of nowhere resulted in no gravity to what was happening.  Much like the recent Thor movie.  Great eye candy, but missing the all important heart.

Most of the screen version of these characters are parodies of what we get in the comics.  Jokes.  If the studios are not going to take these character's seriously, why should we?  

[Bosco685]

5 hours ago, prez said:

DC has to say that as both Flash and Aquaman have confirmed movies.

They ‘have to say that’? If you read through much of the reviews, those two characters seemed to receive the most positive feedback. So since Flashpoint was dependent on Justice League results, that feedback confirmed for WB Flash/Barry Allen worked.

Or was it because you had to post that?

[Gatsby77]

1 hour ago, rjrjr said:

Most of the screen version of these characters are parodies of what we get in the comics.  Jokes.  If the studios are not going to take these character's seriously, why should we?  

This goes to a lot of it for me -- that Justice League just got the characters wrong.

Aquaman's not a frat boy -- he's a god.

Wonder Woman -- who was portrayed so perfectly in her solo movie -- is here reduced to a de-powered supporting player who is needlessly (and inappropriately) sexualized.

Batman would never cede leadership of the team the way he does.

Worst of all -- yes, Flash was entertaining. But he wasn't Barry Allen. Rather, he was a mashup of Wally West or even Impulse (Bart Allen). It's one thing to present him as an inexperienced goofball, but when you already have inexperienced goofballs in the universe, why not simply change his name to one of them?

Not quite as egregious as what they did to Hal Jordan in the Green Lantern movie (as I recall, Guy was the smart foil to Hal's serious take), but close.

With both characters (Flash & Green Lantern) they sacrificed core characterization for short-term entertainment.

[Gatsby77]

5 hours ago, Bosco685 said:

Ummm...once you edited what you posted originally. Ummm...

?

Quotes don't work like that.

You literally copied my already-edited quote to imply that I hadn't read -- let alone already highlighted myself -- the end of the article.

It's cool, just amusing to me.

[Bosco685]

16 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

?

Quotes don't work like that.

You literally copied my already-edited quote to imply that I hadn't read -- let alone already highlighted myself -- the end of the article.

It's cool, just amusing to me.

No, you left off the most important point that validates why Flashpoint moves forward, which was key to a WB decision.

Warner Bros. believes that “Justice League” succeeded in one importantly respect: it effectively introduced Flash (a quippy speedster played by Ezra Miller) and Aquaman (the king of Atlantis, portrayed by Jason Momoa).

It is cool. And you are amusing. Especially when you do the 'umm..' thing.

[bane]

4 hours ago, rjrjr said:

I saw this movie recently.  I liked Man of Steel and Batman vs. Superman.  I really loved Wonder Woman.  I didn't love Justice League.  I would say Justice League was more like Avenger: Age of Ultron that Avengers.  Both were a squandered opportunity at something that should have been great.

 

SPOT.... ON....
 

[Bosco685]

4 hours ago, rjrjr said:

I saw this movie recently.  I liked Man of Steel and Batman vs. Superman.  I really loved Wonder Woman.  I didn't love Justice League.  I would say Justice League was more like Avenger: Age of Ultron that Avengers.  Both were a squandered opportunity at something that should have been great.

19 minutes ago, bane said:

SPOT.... ON....

 

I think with cutting the movie down from 2.5 hours to 2 hours we lost some of the character-building scenes Kevin Smith read off his list of cut and changed scenes, not allowing the audience time to sympathize and bond with each of the characters. Especially the newer ones where telling some of their backstory would have revealed what drives them.

Quote

DELETED: Barry Allen saving Iris West by breaking the glass.

DELETED: After taking the Mother Box from Themiscyra, Steppenwolf actually “talks” to the Box. His mother, Heggra’s essence is alive in the Mother Boxes and bringing them all together would unleash her powers – finally giving Steppenwolf an edge over his uncle – Darkseid. That is what his plan was originally. I thought for sure that they would keep this scene in because they used a dialogue from this scene in the trailers – “No protectors here. No Lanterns. This world will fall. You will be free, mother.”

DELETED – Cyborg’s previous life. He plays a great football match that his MOTHER (Yes, she was cast as well) attends. Afterwards, they drive home. Victor is angry that his Dad never made it while his mother tries to console him. Victor just keeps getting angry and lashing out, loses control of the car – causing a fiery crash..

DELETED: After the attack on Atlantis, Aquaman consults with Mera and Vulko over what he should do next. Mera wants him to stay as King because she “doesn’t trust Orm”. Vulko wants him to do what his heart says. Aquaman confesses that he feels a responsibility to help the people on Earth.

CHANGED: Superman’s resurrection was ONLY possible because Cyborg detects foreign genetic material in his DNA a.k.a the Codex. This is the final confirmation needed that Superman can be brought back to life after all. Then, the revival happens pretty much the same.

DELETED: Kent Farm. Superman brings Lois here. however, he is still very confused and not knowing what’s happening. Bystanders are looking at him and clicking his photos. This confuses him further and he actually tries to attack the civilians with his laser-eyes before Lois manages to calm him down. Superman tells her that “the voices won’t shut up”. Later, Martha shows up here and Clark and Lois are already inside the house. Clark is calmer now but still very confused – his powers are going haywire and his senses are heightened. Martha gives the “Picture the world as an Island. Follow my voice and come back to me” speech from MoS. It seems to calm him down. Later, Clark is wearing his shirt when he sees Pa Kent (Yes, Costner was here too) out in the fields. He goes out to see him. Pa Kent talks about “embracing who you really are”. He tells Clark that “you have to make peace with who you are. You have the power to change the world and you can do that as anyone, good character or bad.” Clark finally embraces Superman as a part of him when Lois walks out. Clark confirms their engagement, Lois breaks down because she wasn’t strong enough. Then, Martha comes out too as Clark decides to help the League and flies off. That’s how it happened in my version. I may have paraphrased some dialogue but that was basically it.

If these details are accurate, it exposes how the studio cut out the guts of the film to make it shorter versus more personable, resulting in a flash of exciting scenes without much emotional attachment taking place.

Heck, even with Steppenwolf it would have given him more personality and counter-balance it wasn't about him being all evil. It was to defeat Darkseid, and bringing his mother back. I didn't even realize her backstory was Darkseid had her murdered for betraying him.

Quote

Heggra is the sister of Steppenwolf, wife of Yuga Khan, mother of Darkseid(her younger son Uxas) and Infinity-Man (her elder son Drax), as well as the grandmother of Kalibak, Orion and Grayven. All of them, including her, are New Gods of Apokolips. She is also the mother-in-law of Suli and Tigra and Himon, the grandmother-in-law of Bekka as well as the adopted grandmother of Mister Miracle, adopted grandmother-in-law of Big Barda and adopted mother-in-law of Big Breeda.

 

Eventually, Darkseid learned of Heggra's role in the death of Suli. Now more motivated to see his mother dead than ever before, he had Desaad murder the queen by poisoning her, leaving him as the unopposed ruler of Apokolips.

Tell us that, and it makes it even more apparent why Steppenwolf was doing what he did, and how it was all about revenge against Darkseid. Even if he had to burn down an entire world.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Bosco685

[drotto]

5 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Agreed.

That's what I said about BVS as well. Too much movie for the short time allowed.

WB would have done much better to split these two movies into multiple separate movies (maybe 4).

Or this is where management comes in and sets some guidelines.  They tell the writers they want a 2 hour movie.  A good writer has a very good idea (or should) how much -script will translate into that much time and what can be done in that much time.

 

That simple act of controlling the -script and making editing and story changes before you shoot anything would avoid so many problems.  I know changes may be required and pickups and re-shoots are unavoidable, but if the initial framework is tight, cohesive, and the correct length, you should be able to  eliminate the choppy feel, most plot holes, and bring to conclusion most arcs. I remember when WW was done and people started asking if there was an extended cut, the immediate response was no.  The reason, except for a few redone scenes and maybe 5 minutes of footage, they had used everything.  That is the way to make a movie.

 

Also in the end it saves the studio money.  Shooting scenes that are doomed to be cut, and extensive re-shoots are expensive.  Best way to control budgets and make sure the money is on the screen is writing and filming only what you need, not what is on a wish list.

[Gatsby77]

29 minutes ago, drotto said:

Or this is where management comes in and sets some guidelines.  They tell the writers they want a 2 hour movie.  A good writer has a very good idea (or should) how much --script will translate into that much time and what can be done in that much time.

Exactly.

And I don't buy that WB changed direction mid-stream and mandated a 2 hour movie at the 11th hour.

I don't doubt that they required it, but can't imagine they'd be so stupid as to not set that guideline beforehand.

Granted, this could be a special case where production on Justice League might have begun with the understanding that it was Part I of II, so there's more room to play in that 2 hours. So cutting it to one movie creates narrative problems.

Point is, it is eminently possible to produce a good superhero movie in two hours.

Example: X-Men -- more characters, shorter than Justice League, under 1:45.

Guardians of the Galaxy - just two minutes over two hours at 2:02.

[jsilverjanet]

3 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

This goes to a lot of it for me -- that Justice League just got the characters wrong.

Aquaman's not a frat boy -- he's a god.

Wonder Woman -- who was portrayed so perfectly in her solo movie -- is here reduced to a de-powered supporting player who is needlessly (and inappropriately) sexualized.

Batman would never cede leadership of the team the way he does.

Worst of all -- yes, Flash was entertaining. But he wasn't Barry Allen. Rather, he was a mashup of Wally West or even Impulse (Bart Allen). It's one thing to present him as an inexperienced goofball, but when you already have inexperienced goofballs in the universe, why not simply change his name to one of them?

Not quite as egregious as what they did to Hal Jordan in the Green Lantern movie (as I recall, Guy was the smart foil to Hal's serious take), but close.

With both characters (Flash & Green Lantern) they sacrificed core characterization for short-term entertainment.

Kinda like Thor?

[Gatsby77]

3 minutes ago, jsilverjanet said:

Kinda like Thor?

Possibly - I haven't seen Ragnarok, but what I've heard, Thor in the movie is not the Thor from the comics.

I'm okay with changes that improve the character -- a perfect example is Nick Fury. I'm not talking about the race change, but that the Nick Fury I grew up reading was still an in-the-field-007-style operative, not primarily an administrator as he is in the movies. I'm okay with the character change because it fits the story.

The Hulk change in The Avengers ("I'm always angry") was well-done as well.

I might even be okay with a light-hearted Thor, as I thought his first movie was among the weakest of all the Marvel films, and Thor 2 was even worse -- only movie I've seen in the theater in 13 years where I fell asleep.

But changing The Flash and Green Lantern into jokesters doesn't work for me. 

Maybe we'll see the screen portrayal of the Flash evolve in later films, but for me I'd have a hard time seeing that Barry Allen as the world weary veteran who willingly sacrifices himself to destroy the Anti-Monitor's cannon.

[Bosco685]

1 hour ago, Bosco685 said:

I think with cutting the movie down from 2.5 hours to 2 hours we lost some of the character-building scenes Kevin Smith read off his list of cut and changed scenes, not allowing the audience time to sympathize and bond with each of the characters. Especially the newer ones where telling some of their backstory would have revealed what drives them.

If these details are accurate, it exposes how the studio cut out the guts of the film to make it shorter versus more personable, resulting in a flash of exciting scenes without much emotional attachment taking place.

Heck, even with Steppenwolf it would have given him more personality and counter-balance it wasn't about him being all evil. It was to defeat Darkseid, and bringing his mother back. I didn't even realize her backstory was Darkseid had her murdered for betraying him.

Tell us that, and it makes it even more apparent why Steppenwolf was doing what he did, and how it was all about revenge against Darkseid. Even if he had to burn down an entire world.

Reflecting on this more, what a missed opportunity by not having some prequel scene in the beginning showing Darkseid killing Heggra. Kind of like was done in Hellboy: The Golden Army.

Come right out and declare there is this massively dangerous being that rules through intimidation and death. Including against The New Gods. Then go into how Steppenwolf secretly declares vengeange against Darkseid, leading to his actions and the Mother Boxes.

[paperheart]

From Variety: "An early version, directed by Zack Snyder, alarmed studio executives with its dark tone."

I'm certain the Snyder cut is a masterpiece although it had been rumored to be unwatchable.

 

[Bosco685]

25 minutes ago, paperheart said:

From Variety: "An early version, directed by Zack Snyder, alarmed studio executives with its dark tone."

I'm certain the Snyder cut is a masterpiece although it had been rumored to be unwatchable.

 

[Artboy99]

10 hours ago, rjrjr said:

I saw this movie recently.  I liked Man of Steel and Batman vs. Superman.  I really loved Wonder Woman.  I didn't love Justice League.  I would say Justice League was more like Avenger: Age of Ultron that Avengers.  Both were a squandered opportunity at something that should have been great.

My biggest beef with Justice League (and most of these superhero movies) is there is no emotional attachment to these characters.  The only recent superhero movie that I was emotionally attached to the characters was Guardians of the Galaxy.  Peter Quill and Gamora had chemistry and their characters were terrific.  You cared about Rocket and Groot.  This movie had heart.  The first 2 Spider-Man movies also have that attachment.  We cared about what happened to Peter Parker and Mary Jane.  Again, heart.  The first Captain America had it with Steve Rogers and Peggy Carter.  That movie's ending hit you like a ton of bricks.  More heart.

I don't get it.  This movie bring back Superman from the dead and this should have been a huge emotional scene.  It fell flat like when Pa Kent died in MoS.  Instead of spending all this money on special effects, these studios should be spending money on writers who are able to get audiences to become emotionally attached to these characters.  Having most of the battles take place in the middle of nowhere resulted in no gravity to what was happening.  Much like the recent Thor movie.  Great eye candy, but missing the all important heart.

Most of the screen version of these characters are parodies of what we get in the comics.  Jokes.  If the studios are not going to take these character's seriously, why should we?  

you have hit the nail on the head and I agree completely. No heart and in dire need of better writing.

A weak in character CGI villain that is fought in a glitzy cgi effect filled "middle of nowhere" scene is great eye candy but I just don't care. They did this in Justice League and before that in Suicide Squad and you can argue it was also done in Batman Vs Superman.

Nor do I care about the main characters fighting weak mindless minions that amount to nothing like the Parademons, or the Grapehead things from Suicide Squad. It is all just filler with no heart.

Very similar to Avengers: Age of Ultron. I thought Ultron was another weak in character CGI villain with a whole bunch of useless minions. Go figure it is one of my least favorite recent Marvel movies.

[Comicopolis]

On 12/8/2017 at 12:51 PM, bane said:

SPOT.... ON....
 

Or not.

[Bosco685]

A little more details about the WB staff shift.

 

[Bosco685]

Justice League was supposed to hit $211M domestic this weekend. Friday gave it a little more steam than expected.

FORBES.COM: Box Office Summary

Quote

Warner Bros.' Justice League may end up the biggest-grossing "flop" of all time by the end, but it's not giving up without a fight. The Zack Snyder/Joss Whedon superhero sequel earned $2.545 million (-44%) on its fourth Friday for a likely $9.6m (-42%) fourth weekend and $212.1m 24-day total. That fourth-weekend hold is comparable to Man of Steel (-45%), Suicide Squad (-41%) and Wonder Woman (-39%), while it's still ahead of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them in terms of holds and raw numbers. Had this movie opened bigger, these legs would be exactly what WB was hoping for when it slotted the Super Friends movie in the pre-Thanksgiving slot.

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Bosco685