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AVATAR 2 THE WAY OF WATER starring Sam Worthington (2022)
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Started by Bosco685,

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Gatsby77

Gatsby77

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On 1/9/2023 at 9:45 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

During the press tour leading up to Avatar Way of Water, James Cameron said:

“When I look at these big, spectacular films — I’m looking at you, Marvel and DC — it doesn’t matter how old the characters are, they all act like they’re in college. They have relationships, but they really don’t. They never hang up their spurs because of their kids. The things that really ground us and give us power, love, and a purpose? Those characters don’t experience it, and I think that’s not the way to make movies.”

First, super-heroes like Superman, Spider-Man, or Captain America don't hang up their spurs because in a super-hero world because of that great power great responsibility thing. Do U.S. military soldiers, sailors, and airmen retire just because they have kids? No. Neither do super-heroes.

Second, particularly in the MCU, some super-heroes totally base their actions on their children or dependents. Tony Stark in Endgame refused to help the ragtag Avengers initially because of his new family life, though the great power great responsibility thing won out in the end.

If Cameron's point is that Avatar Way of Water is a more mature approach to blockbuster moviemaking, I'm not sure this movie is a prime example. IMO, Way of Water might be one of his most infantile movies to date, not because the story is like 65% kids, but because of the storytelling.

I can't defend Cameron's writing in Titanic or Avatar - which was god-awful - and I haven't yet seen Way of Water, so I can't judge.

But his early writing was really good, and Cameron has a point here.

Putting aside that I think Clint (temporarily) put aside his bow and arrows for his wife and family, there's another Cameron quote floating around where he basically admits that he's made at least a few superhero movies - albeit not the types that wear costumes - and they generally were presented with far more depth - and with realistic life and family problems - than in the bulk of the comic book flicks of the last 15 years.

You can't watch Aliens, Rambo: The First Blood Part 2, Terminator 2 or True Lies and tell me with a straight face that the primary protagonists in each of those weren't superheroes.

Ellen Ripley, John Rambo, Sarah Carter and Harry Tasker were all absolutely superheroes - in the same vein that John Wick is today.

And I'd re-watch any of those over the majority of the MCU or DCEU in a heartbeat.

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Bosco685

Bosco685

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On 1/9/2023 at 11:38 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

**spoilers**

The plot of the first Avatar movie was pretty simple: Dances With Wolves in space. Way of Water was a lot messier narratively. I guess it was a little like Avatar meets Finding Nemo meets Titanic meets Swiss Family Robinson but not as good as any of those movies?

I recognize at times it feels like the Comic Book genre takes hits from long-standing cinema leaders. Yet I also read between the lines the messaging is directed at the studios chasing the biggest box office numbers versus the CBM creators, actors and moviegoers. Studios jumped the shark seeing the MCU model take off massively, and have tried to mirror this at the sacrifice of non-franchise productions that just want to tell a unique story.

It's not really directed at we the fans, or even the comic book companies we very much appreciate.

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drotto

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On 1/10/2023 at 10:47 AM, Bosco685 said:

Looks like Disney is going to take advantage of the latest Cameron success.

 

Ah, the release even women in their 30's and 40's has been waiting for.  My sister-in-law has watched this movie so many times it would make your head hurt.

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@therealsilvermane

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On 1/9/2023 at 11:56 AM, Gatsby77 said:

I can't defend Cameron's writing in Titanic or Avatar - which was god-awful - and I haven't yet seen Way of Water, so I can't judge.

But his early writing was really good, and Cameron has a point here.

Putting aside that I think Clint (temporarily) put aside his bow and arrows for his wife and family, there's another Cameron quote floating around where he basically admits that he's made at least a few superhero movies - albeit not the types that wear costumes - and they generally were presented with far more depth - and with realistic life and family problems - than in the bulk of the comic book flicks of the last 15 years.

You can't watch Aliens, Rambo: The First Blood Part 2, Terminator 2 or True Lies and tell me with a straight face that the primary protagonists in each of those weren't superheroes.

Ellen Ripley, John Rambo, Sarah Carter and Harry Tasker were all absolutely superheroes - in the same vein that John Wick is today.

And I'd re-watch any of those over the majority of the MCU or DCEU in a heartbeat.

My post directly referred to James Cameron's statement about how he seems to say that as children and family are a part of real life, comic book movies don't really portray that part of life, or at least its heroes aren't affected by it. IMO, Cameron's movies with central children characters, like young John Conner or Newt or Jake Sully's children, are actually stories where the children have to make do a lot without their parents around. John Conner's mom is institutionalized for much of his childhood. Newt's parents are dead. For much of Avatar Way of Water, the children spend their time getting in trouble in the absence of the parents. It seems to me that while James Cameron talks about family dynamics in his movies, I don't exactly see those examples of strong family dynamics that somehow make his films more mature than the best superhero comic book movies. Yes, Cameron's movies have a strong group comraderie dynamic, like the Space Marines of Aliens, John and the Terminator in Terminator Judgement Day, or the N'avi children in Avatar Way of Water, but I'm not sure there's any real parenting in his movies. When Sully does interact with his kids, it's mostly treating them like soldiers or berating them for screwing up (when the parents weren't around). On the other hand, in MCU films where there are parent-child relationships, like Ant-Man, Black Panther, or Avengers Endgame, there's actual parenting happening. T'Challa and Killmonger meet their fathers on the ancestral plain. Tony spends quality time with Morgan before the Avengers time heist mission. 90% of the parent-child interactions in Avatar Way of Water involve Sully and Neytiri either saving their kids from Sky People or scolding them about something. I don't see that as more mature storytelling.  IMO, James Cameron’s self-ballyhooed family dynamics in his blockbuster movies are about as skin deep as the T-100.

Edited by @therealsilvermane
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Artboy99

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On 1/9/2023 at 9:38 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

**spoilers**

So if James Cameron thinks super-hero movie heroes act like "college kids", Avatar Way of Water's heroes and villains act like Saturday morning cartoon characters, even if the main characters have kids now. And when WoW's heroes or villains do attempt to act in a more three dimensional way, it sometimes doesn't make sense or seems cheap. Why would Spider suddenly start helping out the Sky People he knows are bad? Why do the children of the Sea King basically attempt to murder Sully's youngest son? Cameron does give tiny sparks for such character turns, but betrayal and murder seem a little drastic. Cameron never really gives us any relationship development between Quaritch and Spider to justify them caring if the other lives or dies. 

And what was the motivation for the Sky People this time around? Was it unobtanium? Was it amrita? Was it vengeance? It was a little confusing. In the first movie, the Sky People's motivation was clear: corporate interest in unobtanium. 

The plot of the first Avatar movie was pretty simple: Dances With Wolves in space. Way of Water was a lot messier narratively. I guess it was a little like Avatar meets Finding Nemo meets Titanic meets Swiss Family Robinson but not as good as any of those movies? 

The movie was full of logic problems (to me), plot holes, weird character turns, and redundant plot points. How many times were those poor kids going to be held at gunpoint by Quaritch? By the third time, I was like, "what's the point? They're just gonna get caught again." For a movie about family, Sully and Neytiri always seem absent from their kids lives until it's too late. Even during the big fight, I was like "is somebody gonna untie those poor kids already?" And Neteyam, the oldest son, leaves his sisters alone so they can go get Spider which ends up having horrible consequences for everybody? Such cruel justice for these kids trying to do good.

On the plus side, it all looked great (except for the weird 48p projection which made it look like video) and I did like Sully's kids when they weren't moping. 

I agree, and if I add that visually I think the first Avatar was better as the Navi were rendered in a superior fashion in the first film, is why I can't give The Way of Water any more than a 6/10. A comparison: angle of nose has changed, narrower head shape and the eyes just do not capture emotion like it did 13 years ago.

 

comparison.jpg

Edited by Artboy99
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Axelrod

Axelrod

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I mean, this is all good and I'm happy the movie is doing well, but once you've gotten to the point where you're hyping the "9th biggest 4th Tuesday of all time," you need to stop.  It's just stupid.   

(I'm talking about this Luis Fernando person, not Bosco)

Edited by Axelrod
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Bosco685

Bosco685

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On 1/11/2023 at 5:03 PM, Axelrod said:

I mean, this is all good and I'm happy the movie is doing well, but once you've gotten to the point where you're hyping the "9th biggest 4th Tuesday of all time," you need to stop.  It's just stupid.   

(I'm talking about this Luis Fernando person, not Bosco)

No harm done.

But if a film is just tearing up records that early on was predicted to be insignificant and poorly timed 13 year later, this is big news. There was no multi-film franchise getting it to where it is right now.

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