Yet another Hulk 181 thread

[drbanner]

Tell us how you really feel man!!

 

I've actually noticed that CI...oops, I mean JC has tempered his market doom and gloom diatribes since his "reincarnation" when it comes to established members, and has contributed to other aspects of our discussions of collecting comic books. Heck, he even refrained (well mostly) from the "$5k to invest in comic books" thread - kudos!

 

However, as this thread illustrates, as soon as a new forum member arrives it's like fresh roadkill and the vultures swoop down with their doom and gloom prophecies like white on rice! I think it would be great fun to start a thread with JC and Gene's views on such interesting topics as:

 

- "Investing in Comic Books in the 21st Century";

 

- "Fundamentals and Principles of Economic Theories as Applied to the Four Color Medium"; and

 

- "The Evolution of the Graded Collectible in Today's Society"

 

That way, they wouldn't have to re-type their whole spiel over and over and over again, they could simply provide a link to their well-established positions for the newbies to read!

[delekkerste]

That way, they wouldn't have to re-type their whole spiel over and over and over again, they could simply provide a link to their well-established positions for the newbies to read!

 

Yes, I would certainly be in favor of such a move, particular if these new threads could be part of the "permanent" threads in the Comics General section, right after the "Welcome to the Comics General Discussion Forum" and "Advice for new collectors" threads.

 

Still, though, I feel that JC and I are winning over some converts to our way of thinking...even some of the long-time optimists on the Boards seem to be espousing a more cautious outlook these days (heck, sometimes they sound like they cut and paste from messages I posted months ago) and this latest debate seems to have touched some nerves among the worried bulls that remain, judging from the prickly e-mails and PMs I have been receiving the past few days.

 

Speaking of prickly e-mails, Herb Greenberg of TheStreet.com has a great indicator called the "HOSTILE REACT-O-METER". The more hostile and critical the reaction from True Believers of a stock he has criticized, the greater the probability that he is right and that the stock will subsequently plummet. Judging from my own Hostile React-O-Meter, I would say there are a lot of nervous Pollyannas out there right now. But, don't fear...just sing "Zippedy-Do-Dah", "Supercalifragilisticexpialadocious","It's a Small World" and whatever other songs they sing in the fantasy land you inhabit where trees grow to the sky, little boys can fly and comic prices rise in perpetuity...you'll feel better soon, I assure you.

 

Gene

[drbanner]

Great stuff...now you're killin' me...more financial guru quotes and anecdotes - "Hostile React-O-Meter"...oh man, you're working it...we'll be looking for that post real soon, and I say we have a big party to celebrate it's inception!

 

This is gonna be great, in fact, it'll be "A Whole New World" with an independent, stand-alone thread that you guys can link to without destroying all the other threads and completely chasing away the newcomers!

 

(And don't worry about Arch making it a permanent thread, you can keep it at the top by pulling a gman - just reply to yourself and quickly delete your reply. )

 

[delekkerste]

 

Gene

[fantastic_four]

Still, though, I feel that JC and I are winning over some converts to our way of thinking...even some of the long-time optimists on the Boards seem to be espousing a more cautious outlook these days

You definitely do...I'd describe your market warnings as a healthy skepticism. It's probably harder for you to differentiate your opinions from his since you feel a link to him as the only other stalwart market bear around here besides yourself, but there's a definite difference in your market forecasts. CI is too in love with making absolute, sweeping statements with little or no qualification. I was able to forgive that the first few dozen times we tried to get him to qualify those absolute statements of impending doom--we're all used to people in our everyday lives who take ideas to extremes out of egotism or fear as opposed to approaching subjects with objective caution--but it's getting difficult to read after months and months of it.

 

I apologize to CI for my adversarial tone...but I haven't found any other tone he listens to yet. That pissed-off and backed-into-a-corner Wolverine icon he's using symbolizes his debating attitude extremely well.

[Aman619]

I agree with you that JC is a one-note downer. He always comes at others with his unchangeable "over"-confident view of doom and gloom in the face of all the other "happy as clams" CGC 9.6 boosters on the other side. He probably should peddle his views a bit softer if he really wanted converts.... but that only makes him kind of a bad 'salesman.'

 

So let me try a different tack. I too see a bad future ahead after the recent price surges. Many of you have commented on the softening of Spideys, DDs etc as the hot grade to buy has ratcheted higher and higher. And that prices have definitely softened for 9.4s on these titles. Rather than hit you over the head with doom and gloom. please try to apply the analogies that have been given. Things have changed very rapidly upwards...a veritable BOOM that has shattered traditional ideas of the values of high-grade comics! And there is just too much confidence that this will go on and on....

 

What USUALLY follows a boom period is a correction..... Im not saying a true CRASH is coming, I am one of you who believe the future of comics will always be here, but maybe not in ways that are predictable.

 

But does it not seem like common sense that the party will end? ...and when they do, they usually end badly for many people. I know Im not saying anything radically new here...just trying to sugarcoat it a bit...so it will go down easier. A downturn in prices is in nobody's interest. I doubt even JC wants to see you all suffer just to be 'right' if it will hurt him as well.

[blowout]

Are we still talking about Hulk #181 here?

[ninanina]

I think whatever aman619 said in his post, includes Hulk 181. Thinking he's mostly talking about a general price correction for comics only that are selling for way more than they should be selling. The CGC'd 9.4's and up.

 

But, and its a big one...

 

the lower grade Hulk 181's are getting more expensive along with the hi-grades. So, because it's not the norm, maybe we'll be seeing 181 not being effected by this correction. Only time will tell. I mean, it's so weird on the lower grades going up in price.

 

(Only have e-bay to back me up)

 

So if there is going to be a huge CGC correction, is it possible that Hulk 181 could be spared somehow? And could that be the reason it's the only comic going up in ALL grades, not just hi-grade?

 

 

[joe_collector]

>>I agree with you that JC is a one-note downer. He always comes at others with his unchangeable "over"-confident view of doom and gloom in the face of all the other "happy as clams" CGC 9.6 boosters on the other side. He probably should peddle his views a bit softer if he really wanted converts.... but that only makes him kind of a bad 'salesman.'

 

If I wanted converts, I'd become a priest.

 

What I do is offer logical and time-honored advice on the cyclical nature of comics, and if people choose to ignore the past, then I'll dance when they repeat it.

 

For a great example, let's look at "Forum Investment Legend" Greggy. He bought low after a horrible comic's CRASH, sent to CGC years later, and received a few CGC 9.8 keys. Did he hold them, knowing that the market would continue to rise? Or did he take the money and run, understanding that making a huge profit right now is the logical path?

 

Greggy may not toot his own horn, but the guy has more comic book investment acumen in his little toe, than an entire busload of CGC 9.8 'Hounds.

[Illiterati-migration]

Greggy may not toot his own horn, but the guy has more comic book investment acumen in his little toe, than an entire busload of CGC 9.8 'Hounds.

 

Hi, I'm new to the boards and I was just doing a quick search for "CGC 9.8" just like I do every twenty minutes on Ebay and... oh.

[drbanner]

For a great example, let's look at "Forum Investment Legend" Greggy...the guy has more comic book investment acumen...

 

Here's what I don't quite think you don't understand CI - people like Greggy and BB are motivated to collect comic books because they love comic books, and they really love beautiful, high grade copies. They don't collect comics with financial gain being the end game. I won't put words in Greggy's mouth, but I would bet you a wooden nickle that when he bought that Marvel Feature #1 ten years ago (or whenever), his first thought was more along the lines of "This book is gonna be a great addition to my collection!" than "I'm gonna make a killing on this book in ten years!".

 

Not everyone here is all-consumed with the financial aspects of our hobby, being a "comic investor", creating elaborate websites devoted to investing in comics, telling everyone else their business, and assuming every collector is interested in making money. I think each individual is inspired to collect for different reasons, and it's obvious that in your mind, the hobby revolves around the mighty dollar, but for the vast majority of collectors, it revolves around the comic books themselves.

[joe_collector]

I realize that you're just trying to egg me on, and that you understand dollars and cents doesn't motivate my collecting in the least. If it did, you'd see a swamp of 30 and 35-cent variants, and me taking huge profits.

 

I don't know if you realize this, but there are a ton of people on here who treat the hobby as another investment vehicle, and if you're selling books regularly, then you're naturally concerned with value.

 

If not, then do what I do, and give your dupes to the neighborhood kids? That's the definition of being a collector and not worrying about valuation in the least.

 

But in doing your best to insult me (once again - groan!) you actually hit the nail on the head. True collectors who buy what they like, in the highest grade they can afford, and at a price they agree on, are always going to come out looking better than these Johnny-Come-Lately's who rush in where angels fear to tread.

[drbanner]

dollars and cents doesn't motivate my collecting in the least...not worrying about valuation in the least...

 

Interesting sig line...

[joe_collector]

I don't usually gloat, but due to the sheer number of asinine comments and PMs I've had to deal with, I will be celebrating when the graded comic market takes a tumble.

 

What goes around comes around, and I'll be here to remind my detractors of that very fact.

[FlyingDonut]

but it already has!

[joe_collector]

That was just the tune-up for the real show. The bear is still sniffing out the CGC 9.8 tree-climbers.

[BronzeBruce13]

I think Greg clearly deserves props, if for nothing else for his incredibly sharp eye!

I'm not sure either if he bought books with the thought of really cashing in on them in the future to these extremes... you'd have to ask him. BUT what I will say is that he clearly took the time to buy the VERY best he could find and not just settle for close to, or Solid NM books. The extra time he took being ultra selective has paid off big time. The slight difference between settling for NM-/NM books vs NM+ to NM/M was drastic, but I doubt he quite envisioned the result he enjoyed. Still in all... major props for being selective. He probably drove some dealers nuts in the process, but his time and sharp eye have been rewarded. Kudos!

 

 

As far as being a "true comic fan" and the idea that you're less of one if you sell any of your books for profit... I think that's absurd. You can be a collector and sell for any number of reasons that don't cheapen your love for the hobby. I think you've mentioned more than a few times that you are financially set in life.. and there's your answer. Its very easy for you to have that view. There are others, myself for instance, that have very little (or NO) available funds to the buy books they want. After I ran out of the cash my father left me when I rejoined the hobby 3 years ago, I had to generate my own if I wanted to continue collecting. My Wife would have left me for sure if I tried to buy with house funds (comics over a new kitchen??...Right... CLANG upside the head with the frying pan). A year ago or so I went "self-contained" (not inserting any outside funds into comics at all) and only bought with profits I earned... so I became motivated (out of necessity) to earn at a level equal to the rate I wanted to continue buying at. So, I had to buy and sell books I had no intention of keeping in addition to those I did. Sort of a circle you can't avoid if you don't enjoy your position in life. Even though I'm a Collector/Fan... I absolutely care about values too, so that makes me a seller/dealer/specualtor also by definition. Long story short, if I want to continue buying the books I want for myself (and HG ones at that because I feel they are more stable investments) I have no choice other than earning those funds. What better way for me, than to spend more time doing what I love... buying/selling/trading comics, particularly with those I enjoy working with?

 

There's no denying that the CGC end of this hobby is far more complicated than collecting raw books. Valuation and investment issues better be at least a partial concern and something you pay attention to if you're laying out the multiples that HG CGC keys require. Many CGC collectors are simply forced to pay attention to these concerns. otherwise they may make bad decisions. IMHO, It does not make anyone less of a "true collector" for selling. Look at Dan (FlyingDonut).. he makes a living at it, but it does not take a genius to see he is consumed with collector's passion for his favorite title... Fantastic Four. I consider him a "True Collector" regardless of the fact he's a full time dealer. He clearly still loves it, so much in fact that he does it for a living. Passion in this hobby can take you in many unexpected directions.

 

[drbanner]

I'll be here to remind my detractors of that very fact.

 

I'm sure you will, since you can hardly contain yourself from commenting on it two or three times a day already...and sometimes more!

[BronzeBruce13]

Looks like I missed some of the action while I was making my last reply...

 

I don't usually gloat, but due to the sheer number of asinine comments and PMs I've had to deal with, I will be celebrating when the graded comic market takes a tumble. What goes around comes around, and I'll be here to remind my detractors of that very fact. That was just the tune-up for the real show. The bear is still sniffing out the CGC 9.8 tree-climbers.

 

C'mon V, you have to expect some opposition due to the way you deliver many of your messages/predictions. Many of those that disagree with you have done so with some level of restraint and respect for your ideas. Recently, when FF asked, you said you were here because for some reason "you do care" about people losing their money. Why let some opposing views make you flop if that is how you truly feel? Even if those PM's, emails or whatever were not overly diplomatic, neither are some of your statements. So deal with it, and don't become bitter enough to want to celebrate if some CGC buyers take a big fall. Simply develop the level of tolerance others have had to, and that you've expected them to, when hearing your ideas. My comments to you are not personal, nor will I gloat if you're wrong.

[joe_collector]

>>people like Greggy and BB are motivated to collect comic books because they love comic books, and they really love beautiful, high grade copies.

 

You know, I've got to take exception with this one. Although they are collectors, you've got to remember that greggy was buying multiple copies of high-grade keys right after the last comic book crash.

 

Now I'm not saying he didn't enjoy owning those issues, but there had to be some sort of "these prices are too good to be true" or "no way I can't sell this for more later on" type of thought process going on there. It's also interesting that the "enjoyment level" faded in return for the ludicrous CGC prices currently being paid, and he's now turning those profits into his DC collection.

 

I'm a collector, but at the same time, I was buying up some keys during the Independant Craze, the Valient Hype and even some in the early days of EBay, after the big crash occured. I still do this with variants and Byrne X-Men, and if the price is low enough, how can you say no?