Yet another Hulk 181 thread

[davidking623]

As a newbie to this forum but not to collecting let me just interject briefly

 

 

The Underdog crowd grows.

 

Davidking623

[PovertyRow]

Studios aren't stupid, they know how bankable comic book characters are. I expect continued revivals in one form or another (cartoons, movies) 'till the end of America itself.

 

Well, agree half and half - look what the studios did do some really great performers who were no longer "young and fresh". Lugosi, Rathbone, Karloff, Ray Miland etc etc. (at least they gave Gloria Stuart a fine role she was recognized for). And take the remake of PSYCHO as an example ::shudder:: of classically corporate stupidity. BUT.....

 

I agree with you on the comic book importance. Comics simply ARE. Enough material has been created from the old days of Superman and Batman through to the newer characters like X-Men and Spidey (well - what do you expect! They ARE newer! I'm in my 50's!!!). And don't forget the off-popular movies like FLASH GORDON (music by Queen - "He saved everyone of us! Stands for everyone of us! He saved with a mighty hand every man every women every child that's FLASH!" - think I got that right) and even TRACY (best line in that film - Pacino (Big Boy Caprice) as he is dragging Tess Trueheart through the wine cellar and lamenting "This is awkward! This is so AWKward!" - (awkward? I have to laugh - it was perfect!).

 

OK - back to the real left field and maybe a bit infield...comic books and their characters have insinuated themselves into the fabric of American Culture. I really believe, as you say, they will last until the end of America itself. They make us smile. They make us remember the old days. They let us put the hurt to the baddies. They let us IMAGINE.

[joe_collector]

Actually, I don't think you're in the underdog crowd at all, as Hulk 181 prices are rising steadily. It's just that there are quite a few people in-tune with the current comic's market and notice that zero kids are buying and their current clients are sporting a bit more grey than usual.

 

That certainly doesn't make me feel good about comic collecting in the future, and brings back memories of other collectibles that witnessed an aging of their primary market, and the natural slackening of demand that followed.

 

For my own purposes, I could care less if everyone withdrew their retirement savings and foolishlessly "invested" it in comic books. What is amusing is that I wasn't hearing the same buzz in the 1970's, when the serious cash was waiting to be made. But now that CGC, movies and EBay have jacked demand sky-high, comics are suddenly a viable investment vehicle, and there's only blue skies coming around?

 

It's truly bizarre that so many people can miss the boat by a decade or three, but think they can swim fast enough to catch it.

[delekkerste]

What is amusing is that I wasn't hearing the same buzz in the 1970's, when the serious cash was waiting to be made.

 

By the time Joe Sixpack (or Joe Fanboy, as the case may be) is buzzing about something, it usually means the rally has been in place for quite some time and he is jumping on the bandwagon just in time to watch it hurtle over the precipice. Whether he was "investing" in gold in 1979-1980, fine art, graded numismatics, Japanese stocks and junk bonds in 1989-1990, U.S. tech stocks in 1997-1999 or CGC comics and real estate in 2001-2003, it's always the same old story with ol' late-in-the-game Joe 6. But, what can I say - if not for Joe Sixpack always making the same old mistakes, making money would be a lot more difficult for the rest of us out there. So, to all the Joe Sixpacks out there - I salute you and thank you!!

 

But seriously...I'm not saying I have a perfect crystal ball, but when I see dark clouds coming, I do tend to carry an umbrella *before* it actually starts raining. I'm also not saying that I'm immune to the hype...I've made my share of foolish purchases over the past few years. However, instead of throwing good money after bad and doubling down on weakening Bronze/Modern books or diversifying into overvalued GA and SA books, I've been a better seller lately and have cut back my buying by probably 90%. Yes, I'm that confident that prices will be lower in the coming years.

 

In any case, one trend that I find to be very disturbing is that just about every day someone (including a lot of newbies) starts a thread about "what's undervalued" or "what books are going up in the next Overstreet" or "what's a good comic investment". We also now have multiple CGC price database services competing against each other and people paying 60x Guide for Hulk #162 CGC 9.8s and other highest-graded copies. It seems to me that too many people are focused on the $$$ and chasing CGC labels these days than actually appreciating the art form that they claim is so endearing and enduring. IMHO, I do not believe this speculative environment can persist indefinitely - history shows that it never does. Me, I've stopped the frenetic buying spree I was on through much of 2000-2002 to actually read my back issues, TPBs and new issues and get to know various comic creators and start an original art collection instead of worrying about trivialities like what the ASM #129 CGC 9.8 is going to do the price of my ASM #129 CGC 9.6 or how I can flip some X-Men and Hulk books to some gullible newbies during the X2 and Hulk movie crazes.

 

Just my POV (no, Povertyrow, I'm not saying you're my b****!!!)

 

Gene

[chromium]

you're still buying like a madman Gene, what about those 7 pairs of socks you bought the other day ??

Man you have small feet dude

 

web page

[BronzeBruce13]

Thanks for the Sunday chuckle Chromium... almost a coffee spitter!!!

 

Going to a psychedelic Sock Hop Gene?

 

(I know... different De Lek)

Have fun on your trip... I'll get the book out after the 29th as requested.

[chromium]

[delekkerste]

That guy is an imposter!!! And he's German, no less!!

 

By the way, Chromium, I just got back from seeing "Bend It Like Beckham"...great flick, if you haven't seen it yet (even for us Arsenal fans...) The opening sequence even features your homeboys from Anderlecht!

 

Gene

[blowout]

LMAO,nice one Chrom.

 

Gene, I have seen Bend it like Beckham, great flick. BTW did you catch Man United's 6-2 win over newcastle?

Looks like the Gunners have it all to do to win the title now, Wednesday should be a big one.

[delekkerste]

Yes, I saw every bit of Man. Ure's disgusting win yesterday at St. James' Park...thankfully Arsenal have more pace up front than what Newcastle could muster with Bellamy and Shearer and we finally have full fitness in the back...I'll be all over the potential title-decider at Highbury on Wednesday.

 

People who can mention "Daredevil" and "good movie" in the same breath while keeping a straight face should go see "Bend It Like Beckham" to see what a truly good film actually does look like.

 

And, lest we stray too far off the beaten path, yes, I still think comics are a poor investment and no, Hulk #181 will not reach $20,000 in 20 years.

 

Gene

[joe_collector]

>>IMHO, I do not believe this speculative environment can persist indefinitely - history shows that it never does.

 

Thanks for posting this, and at least now I can open that can of worms a bit more. I didn't want to be the guy to start it, but these new "CGC value databases" are eerily similar to the myriad sportscard grading magazines and valuation services that cropped up during the hype, and represented the last nail in the coffin for this market.

 

I can remember graded cards getting top billing in the industry mags, specific sections devoted to "best bets" and "hot investments", graded price guides, and then BOOM!, one day the speculators stop coming out to play, prices plummeted, and many magazines and services went out of business.

 

Now, the successful card magazines usually don't even list graded values, and are attempting to get back to the core values of the industry: the players, the history and the nostalgia.

 

Once the almighty dollar and investment madness are the only driving factors to a collectibles biz, long-time collectors usually step aside (to wait out the storm - a time-honored strategy) and let the investment-crazed bozos spend their way to extinction. If there's one thing I've learned about graded commodities, it's that long-time collectors who helped build the comic collecting business, do not drive or participate in the buying end of the graded price frenzy. This creates a "trap door" effect, where some big money speculators suddenly stop buying and there's no one left to pick up the slack.

 

Once specs realize this (usually too late) and understand that the major players are "divesting their comic assets", then it's tank city. I ask anyone who is thinking of investing in comic books to look at all the BIG NAMES that are SELLING or HAVE SOLD their serious collections, then ask WHY.

[fantastic_four]

If you don't invest in comics, why do you think about it and post about it so much?

[PovertyRow]

If you don't invest in comics, why do you think about it and post about it so much?

 

Geeze! Talk about direct and to the point!

[joe_collector]

That's a dang good question, and it's likely because this bizarre "investment craze" phenomenon truly interests me. Early on in my collecting I understood that the worst place to be was in the midst of a brainless mob, and paying big bucks for the "hottest thing". I thank Howard the Duck and my lack of funds at the time, for that keen observation.

 

During the Independant Investment Craze in the 1980's, I would sometimes just stare at all the Joe Sixpacks running into the store looking for the latest #1's, buying stacks of them, and patting themselves on the back for their smart investment. Others were busily paying hundreds of dollars for a comic a few months old, just because OS and dealers were heavily pushing it.

 

As I've stated before, I took a lot of ribbing for buying those "worthless" Silver and Bronze Age comics at the time from a good many people, including dealers pushing their hype-driven independant wares. I laughed when the speculator market collapsed and these investors were hammered, and hard.

 

Then in the 1990's, I was shocked that normally-rational collectors would believe that the hottest-selling comics in the Universe could ever be sold at a profit. It truly boggled the mind to think about it. As in the 1980's, I'd walk up to the counter with some Bronze books,and take heat from the sappers with their stacks of X-Force #1, or their "$100 Investment Books" like New Mutants 87 or a few early Ghost Rider, New Warriors or Darkhawk comics.

 

It used to be hilarious to see those suckers part with their money so gladly, and I felt a great deal of satisfaction for never following the crowd and not getting sucked in. Once the speculator market collapsed, I found it highly amusing.

 

I used to laugh the same way at the CGC crowd, following the latest trends, fighting it out with the "Johnny Come Lately" general public investor, and paying through the nose for their "investments". I repeat, "used to..."

 

Maybe it's that the risks have increased exponentially along with the insane prices, maybe I've grown up, and just maybe this is THE most insane speculator environment I've ever experienced, but it's not quite so easy to just laugh at some Joe Sixpack laying down several thousand dollars on a CGC comic book he has no clue about and is only doing so on the advice of others (who are naturally benefitting financially from the sale).

 

Although I predicted it long ago, the migration from CGC 9.0 to 9.2 to 9.4 to 9.6 to 9.8 as the "best CGC investment" is downright frightening, due to the potential money that can be lost. Some insufficiently_thoughtful_person buying a hundred Superman 75's or X-Force 1's was bad, but the damage didn't cut that deeply and there was a physical limit to what one car could haul.

 

Now the sky's the limit for fiscal irresponsibility and while I laughed heartily in previous boom-bust comic markets, I will not take any pleasure when the reaper comes 'a calling this time. This one's gonna be real bloody, and you'd have to be one pretty sick puppy to enjoy it.

 

[FlyingDonut]

At the risk of being callous, so what if somebody gets burned? I don't see what the problem is to Joe Everyday Comic Buyer.

 

Yes, there probably is a coming disintegration in the prices of super-high end CGC books, but, to be blunt, who cares? The vast majority of back issue comic sales are, and will continue to be, the run of the mill mid-grade book, that sells every single time. I may not sell this:

 

 

for its Guide price of $80 or so (please note those spots are from my scanner), but I'll probably sell it for $25 - and since I paid significantly less than that for it, who cares? Everybody's happy. The smart "investor" is the person who, like he or she has been doing for 25 years, is buying nice stuff and sitting on it.

 

The comparison to sportscards that you keep bringing up is a good one, but I'll take it further. Buying PSA 10 Frank Thomas rookie cards probably isn't the greatest investment, much like buying an Origin 1 in 10.0 (sorry Darth! ). But buying, for example, this:

 

 

is like buying a 1967 Topps Rocky Colavito (580). It isn't sexy, nobody writes an article about it, but it just quietly appreciates in value. Slowly, but relatively steadily.

 

I personally don't really care if Joe Investor Guy has dropped $5K on an Origin 1 10.0. I'm happy for Darth in that the coming Darthlet(te) will have a Gucci babyfood spoon, but that buy doesn't do anything for me. I much rather am happy to boringly sell my Super Friends 6 for $7. Because that buyer is still going to be here in a year. And he'll want to buy my 5.

[joe_collector]

>>Yes, there probably is a coming disintegration in the prices of super-high end CGC books, but, to be blunt, who cares?

 

You're absolutely right Dan, but for some strange, unexplained reason, I do.

[Aman619]

is like buying a 1967 Topps Rocky Colavito (580). It isn't sexy, nobody writes an article about it, but it just quietly appreciates in value. Slowly, but relatively steadily.

 

I used to buy baseball cards...and followed the price guides for years in the 80s and early 90s. I saw them level off and stay stationery in that time. Have cards like Rocky's started going up again? Cause a glance every now and then showed the 50s and 60s Topps sets at the same prices...

[Hensley300]

I like older baseball cards. Chasing after labels with bb cards (PSA,BECKETTE 9,10) are rough but big business. Still looking for that 1975 topps george brett 10 though.

[Aman619]

I never got any graded...I'm ready to sell, I suppose, since they give me no pleasure anymore (I used to love lining up the Mantles and Mayses and Aarons) I guess Im a bit afraid to learn of any trimming that may have happened to my "Gem Mint" beauties.... I dint find cards a very trustworthy business.

[fantastic_four]

>>Yes, there probably is a coming disintegration in the prices of super-high end CGC books, but, to be blunt, who cares?

 

You're absolutely right Dan, but for some strange, unexplained reason, I do.

Might I suggest you take your tales of impending CGC market doom to the EBay or the Wizard forums? Your evangelism will reach people who are in more desperate need of it over there. I enjoy your posts when they're not related to investing in comics, but I'm SO dang tired of hearing you preach to the choir...is there anything I can do to get you to apply your razor-sharp acumen to OTHER esoteric comic-related interests?!!? I'm afraid I might put a gun to my forehead if I have to keep continuously hearing how the CGC market is crashing from someone who doesn't even participate in that market. Your diatribes make you come off like a raging dilettante and a guileless critic, sitting by the side of the road tossing stones at the people driving the cars and telling them how they'll get into an accident if they're not careful, all the while ignoring the fact that most of the people you're tossing the stones at have made it back and forth to their destinations safe and sound hundreds or thousands of times.

 

Don't get me wrong...I'm not trying to run you out of here. I'm just trying to adjust the record player--it seems to be stuck playing the same tune over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over