MCU's THE ETERNALS (11/6/20) 8 8

[theCapraAegagrus]

Regarding the Infinity Stones on Earth:

• The Tesseract was brought to Earth by Odin.
• The Scepter was brought to Earth by Loki.
• Do we know how/why the Eye of Agamotto was created? That one may have originated on Earth.
• The Orb was on Morag.
• The Aether was on Svartalfheim.
• Soul Stone was on Vormir.

[fantastic_four]

I assume there's some back story not yet told explaining how the Time Stone in the Eye of Agamotto got to Earth as well.  Wong explained in Infinity War that the stones were created with the Big Bang, and while it's possible the Time stone just happened to fling out into the matter that eventually coalesced into Earth that seems highly unlikely.  Or even if it did happen the odds are higher it would be somewhere relatively deep inside the planet than up near the surface where humanity found it.  The more plausible idea would be that stone was also brought to Earth by someone else.

But all of these interstellar travelers bringing half of the stones to Earth--and others fetching the rest from various planets that humanity could never travel to themselves--doesn't strike me as a great reason for Ajak to consider humanity special.  All I see is a civilization far less evolved than countless others she would have encountered in the "millions of years" she said she had been helping the Celestials.

[fantastic_four]

One thing I want to re-watch in the film is that army of incomplete Eternals they showed at some point.  Were they all unique individuals that didn't look like the Eternals we saw on Earth, or were they an army of the ten Eternals from the film all duplicated multiple times?  It wasn't on the screen long enough for me to figure that out.

Edited November 15, 2021 by fantastic_four

[fantastic_four]

Another thing I missed--the exact idea of what Tiamut (the Celestial gestating inside of Earth) needed with billions of humans.  They're food for him?  And intelligent life is more nourishing to a Celestial?  Or was it something else?  I wasn't clear on exactly what Tiamut was getting from humans.

[TupennyConan]

Do technological advancements alone measure the evolutionary status of civilizations?

Ajak was explicit in her praise of humanity. Perhaps she left some things unsaid. 

When I hear evolutionary status in the Marvel world, I think mutants.

[TupennyConan]

If the film indulges human chauvinism [& I think it does, but for forgivable reasons], it also reveals human crime or war crime, if you like, or sin, if you like even more.

[TupennyConan]

As for Hiroshima.

I view this as the western tendency of self-critique. It's our strength & virtue. 

Historically, Hiroshima may be justified. I must leave that debate to others. Within the film, Phastos' grief could be over the horrors of war itself rather than our ideas of a just war. It was well acted & emotional.

PS it seemed Phastos was taking the credit & blame for human tech.

PSS China might not view Hiroshima as unjust but rather quite just & necessary.

[Bosco685]

On 11/15/2021 at 10:48 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I was considering saying this. Earth tends to be the focal point of most stories for a reason, primarily to be relatable.

And naturally in Marvel movies early on New York City was it. Where all space invasions should land!

[TupennyConan]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:58 AM, Bosco685 said:

And naturally in Marvel movies early on New York City was it. Where all space invasions should land!

Marvel comics taught me everything I know about NYC.

It's my favorite city for a reason. 

[Bosco685]

On 11/15/2021 at 12:01 PM, TupennyConan said:

Marvel comics taught me everything I know about NYC.

It's my favorite city for a reason. 

[Axelrod]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:41 AM, fantastic_four said:

Another thing I missed--the exact idea of what Tiamut (the Celestial gestating inside of Earth) needed with billions of humans.  They're food for him?  And intelligent life is more nourishing to a Celestial?  Or was it something else?  I wasn't clear on exactly what Tiamut was getting from humans.

All the movie explained was that the planet needed to have a critical mass of "intelligent" life on it in order for the Celestial to emerge.  Intelligent being the operative word there.  One had to assume that the "intelligent" life was generating some kind of special energy/life force that the Celestial needed.  

[fantastic_four]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:42 AM, TupennyConan said:

Do technological advancements alone measure the evolutionary status of civilizations?

Ajak was explicit in her praise of humanity. Perhaps she left some things unsaid. 

Technology isn't necessarily what would make us special.  But whatever it was she thinks she saw I don't, hence why I'm asking here, to see if anyone else could see it.  Certainly Ikaris couldn't see it either after she referred to what Tony Stark and the Avengers did, so too bad she left so much unsaid.

On 11/15/2021 at 11:42 AM, TupennyConan said:

When I hear evolutionary status in the Marvel world, I think mutants.

In part, but more than that we should think Eternals.  Kirby's intent was that they represented the ultimate expression of the potential of a species as shown in the third panel below where Nezzar the Calculator experiments on homoerectus (space intentionally omitted to prevent forum word replacement).  I don't think we can tell if any of this is what happens with the MCU versions of the Celestials and Eternals, but since they weren't doing this on Earth because it was being used as a Celestial egg we also can't rule this out as to how they usually operate in the MCU either.  

Edited November 15, 2021 by fantastic_four

[fantastic_four]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:53 AM, TupennyConan said:

As for Hiroshima.

I view this as the western tendency of self-critique. It's our strength & virtue. 

Historically, Hiroshima may be justified. I must leave that debate to others. Within the film, Phastos' grief could be over the horrors of war itself rather than our ideas of a just war. It was well acted & emotional.

PS it seemed Phastos was taking the credit & blame for human tech.

I tend to agree.  I've heard a few explanations for why that scene was offensive, but I didn't see those positions explained thoroughly enough to understand the objections.  But I'm also not Japanese, so I could easily be missing a lot of context for how to feel about depictions of Hiroshima.

[TupennyConan]

Has China cited the Hiroshima scene as being objectionable? My google's busted

It seems to me they'd view Phastos as considering it a war crime and would therefore object.

I need to rewatch the scene to understand better its within universe politics. 

[Mystafo]

On 11/14/2021 at 7:53 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Also the feeling that I was reading an Infinity War tie-in issue from Silver Surfer 90’s Ron Lim era.

Hmmm, hooked my eyelid with this one...Reading Starlin/Lim surfer is like wrapping up in a warm comfy blanket for me!

[fantastic_four]

On 11/15/2021 at 12:06 PM, Axelrod said:

On 11/15/2021 at 11:41 AM, fantastic_four said:

Another thing I missed--the exact idea of what Tiamut (the Celestial gestating inside of Earth) needed with billions of humans.  They're food for him?  And intelligent life is more nourishing to a Celestial?  Or was it something else?  I wasn't clear on exactly what Tiamut was getting from humans.

All the movie explained was that the planet needed to have a critical mass of "intelligent" life on it in order for the Celestial to emerge.  Intelligent being the operative word there.  One had to assume that the "intelligent" life was generating some kind of special energy/life force that the Celestial needed.  

Yea, I guess that's all I heard too, but wanted to re-watch to be sure.  Until it hits Disney Plus you reaffirming what I thought I heard helps, so thanks.

They also said during that explanation that the Deviants were put onto planets to wipe out apex predators that could wipe out intelligent life, but that the Deviants ended up becoming apex predators themselves so they created Eternals to fix that mistake.  OK, sure...but you've been doing this for millions, if not billions, of years.  So if the Deviants end up being an accident why do you keep repeating the same mistake, Celestials?  Seems like by the time you got to Earth 7000 years ago the millions of years of bad experiences would have taught you to stop letting those darned Deviants loose.  

I looked for some explanation for why the Celestials would let Deviants loose on worlds in the comics prior to the film's release but could never find an explanation.  At least the film tried to give one, although I don't fully get it yet.

 

[fantastic_four]

Another thing I completely didn't get while watching--which side was Kro fighting on during the big Ikaris fight, and why was he on either side at all?  Up until he joined the battle I thought he hated both Eternals AND Celestials, so I would think he wouldn't have wanted to be on either of those sides enough to join the fray at all.

[fantastic_four]

Why did Thena kill Kro?  And which Thena was it that killed him--was it the post-mind-wipe Thena, or the whited-over eyes Thena that's a throwback to her pre-Earth mindset that for whatever reason didn't get completely wiped when the Celestials put her on Earth?  I think I need to re-watch that scene several times to fully get it...  

[fantastic_four]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:22 AM, fantastic_four said:

By the way...my first impression was that I generally enjoyed the film, but there were enough unresolved ideas in it for me to think I could reverse that later.  All movies have flaws, even masterpieces, so just because there are problems doesn't rule out a film being great.  I left the theater under the impression that they wanted the story to be that humans are special because their audience is all humans, but I wasn't sure of it--and even if that's why they did it I don't see that it's necessarily a fatal flaw, I'm just trying to determine if that was indeed their thinking.

It took me months to think through the more complex story elements of Prometheus after I saw it before I ultimately decided if I liked it, which I ultimately did.  The whole Engineer story is far more complex and stimulating than that of the xenomorphs, although certainly the xenomorphs are far more emotionally visceral and satisfying in their own way in their better films, particularly Cameron's "Aliens."  So I anticipate it'll be a few months before I ultimately decide how much I enjoyed Eternals, too.

While I've definitely decided I really like Prometheus after mulling everything in it over, it can easily go the opposite way.  I really liked Wandavision's complexity as it unfolded, but by the end I mostly detested it for tossing those 100+ little mysteries and easter eggs in that it ultimately did very little with.  Haven't thought about that show once since it ended, and unless we later find that one or more of those unresolved references turns into something big in the MCU I doubt I ever will.

I know some of you guys love that "MEPHISTO!" meme, it's a mistake for a writer or director to ask questions or lead viewers in a direction that it never intends to answer or complete.  I still feel completely trolled by Wandavision's creator Jac Schaeffer, particularly on those references to Marvel characters like Mephisto or High Evolutionary that she peppered into the story dozens upon dozens of times.  

Edited November 15, 2021 by fantastic_four

[Rodey]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:22 AM, fantastic_four said:

By the way...my first impression was that I generally enjoyed the film, but there were enough unresolved ideas in it for me to think I could reverse that later.  All movies have flaws, even masterpieces, so just because there are problems doesn't rule out a film being great.  I left the theater under the impression that they wanted the story to be that humans are special because their audience is all humans, but I wasn't sure of it--and even if that's why they did it I don't see that it's necessarily a fatal flaw, I'm just trying to determine if that was indeed their thinking.

It took me months to think through the more complex story elements of Prometheus after I saw it before I ultimately decided if I liked it, which I ultimately did.  The whole Engineer story is far more complex and stimulating than that of the xenomorphs, although certainly the xenomorphs are far more emotionally visceral and satisfying in their own way in their better films, particularly Cameron's "Aliens."  So I anticipate it'll be a few months before I ultimately decide how much I enjoyed Eternals, too.

Same here. I didn't love the movie, but I was entertained. I very much enjoyed the departure from the typical MCU movies. This one was a tad more adult in themes, it had a larger scope, bigger character development. I just felt like some of the acting was over-acting like Angelina Jolie's Thena. What I really enjoyed was the "look" of their cosmic powers. We've never seen anything like it in the other movies.