MCU's THE ETERNALS (11/6/20) 8 8

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/18/2021 at 6:28 PM, drotto said:

Remember, Shang-Chi is a cultural touch stone also. I see Wonder Woman shirts and merchandise almost everyday.  I have seen lots are Carnage and Venom, t-shirts.  Raise your hand if you have seen a Shang-Chi t-shirt.  I have however seen lots of Shang-Chi toys with massive mark downs collecting dust on store shelves.

 

To be honest as lame as Aquaman is (the movie was sorta OK), I see more Aquaman fans than Shang-Chi.

Yeah, I'm not comparing Aquaman and Shang-Chi. I was comparing Aquaman and Wonder Woman to make a point about worldwide grosses and movies being a qualified hit but I guess you didn't get it. 

Btw, the reason so many people would be wearing lots of Venom and Carnage shirts is because they're iconic comic book characters, not because of the lame Sony movies. If people are wearing Shang-Chi shirts or any such merchandise, it's directly because of the movie's success, not the comic book who hardly anyone really cared about.

[drotto]

On 11/18/2021 at 6:58 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Yeah, I'm not comparing Aquaman and Shang-Chi. I was comparing Aquaman and Wonder Woman to make a point about worldwide grosses and movies being a qualified hit but I guess you didn't get it. 

Btw, the reason so many people would be wearing lots of Venom and Carnage shirts is because they're iconic comic book characters, not because of the lame Sony movies. If people are wearing Shang-Chi shirts or any such merchandise, it's directly because of the movie's success, not the comic book who hardly anyone really cared about.

Well the public seems to disagree with you those movies are lame.  They have both made more money than Shang-Chi WW.  Seems to me to be even more proof they are more popular, and therefor bigger cultural touchstones. 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/18/2021 at 6:57 PM, drotto said:

You can not remove movies from the list based on an arbitrary decision that re-release should not count. 

There are two all-time domestic lists on box office mojo. One is for total gross which lists Star Wars Force Awakens as the #1 film of all time. The other list is adjusted for inflation and lists Gone With the Wind as the #1 film of all time. When folks refer to a domestic all-time list, they usually refer to the total gross list.

Edited November 19, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[Finhead]

On 11/18/2021 at 5:03 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

There are two all-time domestic lists on box office mojo. One is for total gross which lists Avatar as the #1 film of all time. The other list is adjusted for inflation and lists Gone With the Wind as the #1 film of all time. When folks refer to a domestic all-time list, they usually refer to the total gross list, which is why James Cameron and the Russo Bros made such a big deal of it when Avatar and Endgame switched #1 spots twice. 

Man if you keep bending that narrative you'll break it right off.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/18/2021 at 7:01 PM, drotto said:

Well the public seems to disagree with you those movies are lame.  They have both made more money than Shang-Chi WW.  Seems to me to be even more proof they are more popular, and therefor bigger cultural touchstones. 

Transformers Age of Extinction made $245 million domestic, $1.1 billion worldwide. It has a 17% RT critics score, 50% RT audience score. It's a bad movie that was made almost directly for the growing China market.

Is it considered one of the most popular movies of all time and a qualified hit because it made over a billion world wide?

[paperheart]

definition of 'hit' seems to be the issue

 

[drotto]

On 11/18/2021 at 7:52 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Transformers Age of Extinction made $245 million domestic, $1.1 billion worldwide. It has a 17% RT critics score, 50% RT audience score. It's a bad movie that was made almost directly for the growing China market.

Is it considered one of the most popular movies of all time and a qualified hit because it made over a billion world wide?

By using your some of your arguments for Shang-Chi, yes.  You called it a cultural milestone. One of your arguments was its box office returns.

 

Again, I though RT was trash now.

 

In my opinion, there are plenty of marginal to bad movies that have made lots of money. You were the one that started the discussion that box office returns and rankings on all time lists could be used as a benchmark for quality and culturally significant films. You stated, Shang-Chi has saved the movie theaters, and is cultural significant to Asians, and is now a pop culture cornerstone.  A significant part of your argument for this is domestic box office. You stated, Captain Marvel has shown how popular the movie is because it is 25th all time and made lots of money.  Both these arguments hinge on your assertion there is a correlation between Box Office, popularity and cultural significance. You can not then come back and say Aquaman does not meet these standards, or Transformers does not meet these standards, if money is one of your primary benchmarks.

[▫️]

On 11/19/2021 at 1:40 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

In the pandemic era, Shang Chi has:

1. the highest North American box office gross of any North American movie,  Agreed.

2. has higher critic and fan scores on RT and Metacritic than those four other American movies, Agreed, (even though you only use critics when it suits you)

3. exceeded box office and critical expectations whereas those four other films just met or fell short of expectations, Unknown, I don’t know what the studios expected number-wise. Has anyone working directly for the studio ever posted that information? 

4. had a discernable effect on pop culture and the movie theater industry. Concerning that last one, movie theater CEO's were tweeting the good graces of Shang Chi (and Venom 2 I admit), not F9, not GvK, not No Time to Die. How did Shang-Chi effect pop culture exactly? And that not so clever wording of “CEO’s were tweeting the good graces of Shang Chi” and NOT the others… False. Would you like some links? 

Are you going to deny that? Of course you are... I don’t deny for the sake of arguing. You stated a couple of facts along with something you made up. Carry on.

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by ▫️

[▫️]

On 11/19/2021 at 1:40 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

So with that, concerning Shang Chi as possibly the biggest hit of the pandemic, I stated that I took into consideration North American box office, critics' reactions, fans' reactions, how much expectations were met or exceeded, and how much of an effect the movie had on culture and the industry.

Two Marvel movies release within two months of each other and you use the critical reviews of one to boost the movie while dismissing the reviews and score of the other. This shows you are being disingenuous. Don’t lower your character over some movies, its not worth it. 

As for pop culture, how is Shang-Chi a pop culture phenomenon? Because it either is or isn’t. I wasn’t in the United States last Halloween so I’ll ask, were the Shang Chi costumes sold out in stores? I mean, I liked the movie, but are we quoting it at work with our friends? Let’s be honest here. The movie will not be embedded in pop culture. 

Now please explain how it effects the industry as you stated. Because the industry is dollar driven. Bottom line. It seems to me that Shang Chi has contributed to the industry very well domestically as did others. Others contributed better on a worldwide scale. So what sets this movie apart from the others in which the industry was affected? In under a thousand words please. A few factual statements that can be looked up and confirmed by all here would suffice actually.

Edited November 19, 2021 by ▫️

[Bosco685]

[Chaos_in_Canada]

Edited November 19, 2021 by Chaos_in_Canada

[Bosco685]

[Cat]

On 11/19/2021 at 8:40 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

I don't deny that those four American movies have a higher worldwide box office gross than Shang-Chi. However...

In my "wall of text" post a few posts above, I "carefully" laid out my reasons why I said Shang-Chi qualifies as a bigger hit than F9 and No Time to Die (that also includes Venom 2 and GvK), even though those four American films have a larger world wide box office than Shang-Chi. 

I left out worldwide box office because China, the world's largest movie market, is going through a government imposed nationalist isolationist movement right now and has banned a lot of Hollywood films including Shang-Chi. China is continuing to move away from Hollywood movies and wants to rely mostly on its own China-made movies going forward. The fact that The Battle of Lake Changjin's $900 million is all from China is proof that they can probably do it. But this year, the four American movies above Shang Chi in worldwide box office grosses were all given a pass to screen in China. For F9 and GvK, it was a majority of their box office gross.

Even still, the most important market to American films is the country they were made in, the world's second largest movie market, America. The North American movie market, which includes Canada and Mexico, is still the biggest barometer of a film's box office success.

So with that, concerning Shang Chi as possibly the biggest hit of the pandemic, I stated that I took into consideration North American box office, critics' reactions, fans' reactions, how much expectations were met or exceeded, and how much of an effect the movie had on culture and the industry. And oh yeah, that we're in a pandemic.

In the pandemic era, Shang Chi has:

1. the highest North American box office gross of any North American movie,

2. has higher critic and fan scores on RT and Metacritic than those four other American movies,

3. exceeded box office and critical expectations whereas those four other films just met or fell short of expectations,

4. had a discernable effect on pop culture and the movie theater industry. Concerning that last one, movie theater CEO's were tweeting the good graces of Shang Chi (and Venom 2 I admit), not F9, not GvK, not No Time to Die. 

Are you going to deny that? Of course you are...

You think a company's biggest concern is their SECOND biggest market? Sir, do you business? Haven't you ever wondered why so many stars give tearful apologies to China on a weekly basis while telling America where to shove itself? 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/18/2021 at 8:09 PM, paperheart said:

definition of 'hit' seems to be the issue

 

I clearly(or maybe not so clearly) defined my criteria for "hit", which, besides the world vs domestic box office thing, is what I think is the usual general criteria for a movie hit. I clearly said I left out world wide box office concerning American movies because of the pandemic and the situation in China. You can't equally judge two movies head to head by worldwide box office if one of them was allowed to screen in China and the other wasn't. But folks here keep going back to the worldwide box office thing so whatever. Sticking to one's guns is a thing.

[Bosco685]

On 11/19/2021 at 11:55 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

I clearly(or maybe not so clearly) defined my criteria for "hit", which, besides the world vs domestic box office thing, is what I think is the usual general criteria for a movie hit. I clearly said I left out world wide box office concerning American movies because of the pandemic and the situation in China. You can't equally judge two movies head to head by worldwide box office if one of them was allowed to screen in China and the other wasn't. But folks here keep going back to the worldwide box office thing so whatever. Sticking to one's guns is a thing.

Venom 2 didn't play in China. Now $12M higher than Shang-Chi without any hybrid schedule for either film.

[Bosco685]

[paperheart]

$1.3M Thursday, down a slim 80% vs Veteran's Day; sinking faster in the US than a corpse wrapped in chains

Edited November 19, 2021 by paperheart

[drotto]

On 11/19/2021 at 11:55 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

I clearly(or maybe not so clearly) defined my criteria for "hit", which, besides the world vs domestic box office thing, is what I think is the usual general criteria for a movie hit. I clearly said I left out world wide box office concerning American movies because of the pandemic and the situation in China. You can't equally judge two movies head to head by worldwide box office if one of them was allowed to screen in China and the other wasn't. But folks here keep going back to the worldwide box office thing so whatever. Sticking to one's guns is a thing.

So more excuses.   Disney tried to tailor make this movie for China.  They have been pandering to China (Mulan remake) and it is failing.  Yes, it is an awful repressive government, but it is the US entertainment industry that has been sucking up to them. Serves them right for changing our movies and what western audiences want to see to cater to a country that is many ways is fundamentally opposed to us. 

 

You can again not say worldwide box offices are not comparable because one got a Chinese release, one did not. These companies have been trying to play the Chinese game. Sometime they lose. It is more excuses because investors do not care where a movie released, only does it make money.

[Bosco685]

On 11/19/2021 at 1:03 PM, drotto said:

So more excuses.   Disney tried to tailor make this movie for China.  They have been pandering to China (Mulan remake) and it is failing.  Yes, it is an awful repressive government, but it is the US entertainment industry that has been sucking up to them. Serves them right for changing our movies and what western audiences want to see to cater to a country that is many ways is fundamentally opposed to us. 

 

You can again not say worldwide box offices are not comparable because one got a Chinese release, one did not. These companies have been trying to play the Chinese game. Sometime they lose. It is more excuses because investors do not care where a movie released, only does it make money.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/19/2021 at 12:06 PM, Bosco685 said:

Venom 2 didn't play in China. Now $12M higher than Shang-Chi without any hybrid schedule for either film.

Except box office receipts wasn't my only criteria for a movie being a "hit". It's not really the industry's only criteria, either, otherwise Transformers Age of Extinction would be one of the greatest movie hits of all time. I also took in to account critic and fan reaction, critical and box office expectation vs the actual outcome, and how much the movie moved the pop culture needle for the positive i.e. its impact on audiences or how much it changed things artistically/industry-wise, etc.