MCU's THE ETERNALS (11/6/20) 8 8

[Bosco685]

On 11/18/2021 at 8:46 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

In early MCU films films, one space invasion occurs in New York City in Avengers. The others were in a New Mexico desert town (Thor) and London (Thor 2). If you count Captain Marvel, then it was Los Angeles and the California desert.

New York City doesn't get invaded again until Infinity War when Thanos' Black Order come looking for the Time Stone. Infinity War's big space invasion occurs in Wakanda.

That Eternals conference must have been chock full of information it scrambled your brains.

Marvel Cinematic Universe: New York City

Quote

Doctor Strange: Thousands of years in the past, the mighty sorcerer Agamotto erected a sanctuary in a place of power where New York would have arisen, in order to create a mystical shield around the globe. He then left the sanctuary in the custody of his disciples.

Quote

Captain America The First Avenger: Steve Rogers' Childhood

Quote

Agent Carter: In 1925, Harry Houdini performed one of his sensational escape acts at the Griffith Hotel, where he escaped from handcuffs, straight jackets and steamer trunks.

Quote

Return of Captain America: Captain America awoke from his 70 years of slumber in what seemed a hospital room in New York City. Realizing that it was a ploy due to the radio airing a baseball game he attended in 1941, he escaped to the streets of modern New York City.

It all goes back to New York City, baby! 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/16/2021 at 11:37 PM, ▫️ said:

Once again, selective narrative. No surprise. The world is bigger than North America. Worldwide box office take is the only figure that counts in the business.

I'll repeat. In my summation, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings is the biggest hit of the pandemic era.

Yes, I know a couple of Chinese films, F9, and Bond have bigger worldwide numbers. But this isn't just about worldwide numbers. If it was all about worldwide numbers, then China's nationalist film The Battle at Lake Changlin would be the biggest hit of the pandemic. And it's not. A lot of people in China saw the movie, but it hardly screened in North America. If this was all about worldwide numbers, even outside the pandemic, then Aguaman would be considered a bigger hit than Wonder Woman. But it's not. Wonder Woman is considered the DCEU's most successful film overall. And while Aguaman and Joker got comparable worldwide numbers, Joker is considered the far more bigger hit. That's because there are other things at play besides worldwide box office numbers.

Shang-Chi has the largest North American numbers for a popular movie during the pandemic era so far, though I agree those numbers will be dwarfed when SM No Way Home arrives.

But also what has to be considered is critical reaction, fan reaction, expectation vs the actual outcome, and its effect on popular culture at large.

F9 was just the 9th movie in a franchise that basically has given us the same thing over and over again. JB No Way to Die, while not exactly just another Bond movie as it was Craig's last film, seemed to underwhelm with both critics and fans and actually came under box office expectations in North America. Neither movie really moved the pop culture needle much.

Shang Chi, even though it was a MCU film, had very tempered expectations. I'm sure we all remember that, right? Even here in this forum? Critics and fans alike expected a lesser effort from Marvel based on the trailers. It was an unknown character and an Asian character at that. Box office expectations were tempered to about $50 million and sentiment about movie theaters overall was down.

Upon Shang Chi's arrival, the movie blew away box office predictions and scored $90+ million during its Labor Day weekend debut, a weekend that historically has had low box office numbers. Critical and fan reactions were almost unanimous that Shang Chi was a really good movie, again blowing away expectations. As much as I disparage the Rotten Tomatoes aggregate, I've never denied that it's still a cultural barometer for a movie's success at least in image. The RT scores for Shang Chi are 92% critics, 98% fans. Shang Chi also moved the pop culture needle in numerous ways. It suddenly changed the conversation about the impending demise of movie theaters and made them seem viable again (we've had this conversation and I've posted the numerous articles, tweets, and stock price figures that show it). It had the Black Panther effect of being another major super-hero featuring a non-white character that ended up being a positively received movie. Shang Chi was by all accounts, a hit.

In my summation, when considering North American box office, critic and fan reaction, expectations vs what actually happened, and how much it moves the pop culture needle, Shang Chi is so far the biggest hit of the pandemic era.

 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:13 AM, Bosco685 said:

That Eternals conference must have been chock full of information it scrambled your brains.

Marvel Cinematic Universe: New York City

It all goes back to New York City, baby! 

I thought we were talking about MCU space invasions. 

[paperheart]

On 11/18/2021 at 7:07 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

I'll repeat. In my summation, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings is the biggest hit of the pandemic era.

Yes, I know a couple of Chinese films, F9, and Bond have bigger worldwide numbers. But this isn't just about worldwide numbers. If it was all about worldwide numbers, then China's nationalist film The Battle at Lake Changlin would be the biggest hit of the pandemic. And it's not. A lot of people in China saw the movie, but it hardly screened in North America. If this was all about worldwide numbers, even outside the pandemic, then Aguaman would be considered a bigger hit than Wonder Woman. But it's not. Wonder Woman is considered the DCEU's most successful film overall. And while Aguaman and Joker got comparable worldwide numbers, Joker is considered the far more bigger hit. That's because there are other things at play besides worldwide box office numbers.

Shang-Chi has the largest North American numbers for a popular movie during the pandemic era so far, though I agree those numbers will be dwarfed when SM No Way Home arrives.

But also what has to be considered is critical reaction, fan reaction, expectation vs the actual outcome, and its effect on popular culture at large.

F9 was just the 9th movie in a franchise that basically has given us the same thing over and over again. JB No Way to Die, while not exactly just another Bond movie as it was Craig's last film, seemed to underwhelm with both critics and fans and actually came under box office expectations in North America. Neither movie really moved the pop culture needle much.

Shang Chi, even though it was a MCU film, had very tempered expectations. I'm sure we all remember that, right? Even here in this forum? Critics and fans alike expected a lesser effort from Marvel based on the trailers. It was an unknown character and an Asian character at that. Box office expectations were tempered to about $50 million and sentiment about movie theaters overall was down.

Upon Shang Chi's arrival, the movie blew away box office predictions and scored $90+ million during its Labor Day weekend debut, a weekend that historically has had low box office numbers. Critical and fan reactions were almost unanimous that Shang Chi was a really good movie, again blowing away expectations. As much as I disparage the Rotten Tomatoes aggregate, I've never denied that it's still a cultural barometer for a movie's success at least in image. The RT scores for Shang Chi are 92% critics, 98% fans. Shang Chi also moved the pop culture needle in numerous ways. It suddenly changed the conversation about the impending demise of movie theaters and made them seem viable again (we've had this conversation and I've posted the numerous articles, tweets, and stock price figures that show it). It had the Black Panther effect of being another major super-hero featuring a non-white character that ended up being a positively received movie. Shang Chi was by all accounts, a hit.

In my summation, when considering North American box office, critic and fan reaction, expectations vs what actually happened, and how much it moves the pop culture needle, Shang Chi is so far the biggest hit of the pandemic era.

 

[paperheart]

critics after watching Eternals

the same critics after watching Shang-Chi

[▫️]

On 11/18/2021 at 6:07 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

I'll repeat. In my summation, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings is the biggest hit of the pandemic era.

Yes, I know a couple of Chinese films, F9, and Bond have bigger worldwide numbers. But this isn't just about worldwide numbers. If it was all about worldwide numbers, then China's nationalist film The Battle at Lake Changlin would be the biggest hit of the pandemic. And it's not. A lot of people in China saw the movie, but it hardly screened in North America. If this was all about worldwide numbers, even outside the pandemic, then Aguaman would be considered a bigger hit than Wonder Woman. But it's not. Wonder Woman is considered the DCEU's most successful film overall. And while Aguaman and Joker got comparable worldwide numbers, Joker is considered the far more bigger hit. That's because there are other things at play besides worldwide box office numbers.

Shang-Chi has the largest North American numbers for a popular movie during the pandemic era so far, though I agree those numbers will be dwarfed when SM No Way Home arrives.

But also what has to be considered is critical reaction, fan reaction, expectation vs the actual outcome, and its effect on popular culture at large.

F9 was just the 9th movie in a franchise that basically has given us the same thing over and over again. JB No Way to Die, while not exactly just another Bond movie as it was Craig's last film, seemed to underwhelm with both critics and fans and actually came under box office expectations in North America. Neither movie really moved the pop culture needle much.

Shang Chi, even though it was a MCU film, had very tempered expectations. I'm sure we all remember that, right? Even here in this forum? Critics and fans alike expected a lesser effort from Marvel based on the trailers. It was an unknown character and an Asian character at that. Box office expectations were tempered to about $50 million and sentiment about movie theaters overall was down.

Upon Shang Chi's arrival, the movie blew away box office predictions and scored $90+ million during its Labor Day weekend debut, a weekend that historically has had low box office numbers. Critical and fan reactions were almost unanimous that Shang Chi was a really good movie, again blowing away expectations. As much as I disparage the Rotten Tomatoes aggregate, I've never denied that it's still a cultural barometer for a movie's success at least in image. The RT scores for Shang Chi are 92% critics, 98% fans. Shang Chi also moved the pop culture needle in numerous ways. It suddenly changed the conversation about the impending demise of movie theaters and made them seem viable again (we've had this conversation and I've posted the numerous articles, tweets, and stock price figures that show it). It had the Black Panther effect of being another major super-hero featuring a non-white character that ended up being a positively received movie. Shang Chi was by all accounts, a hit.

In my summation, when considering North American box office, critic and fan reaction, expectations vs what actually happened, and how much it moves the pop culture needle, Shang Chi is so far the biggest hit of the pandemic era.

 

You have clearly failed when you need a wall of text to articulate your dispute with a simple factual statement. 

[Bosco685]

On 11/18/2021 at 10:07 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

I'll repeat. In my summation, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings is the biggest hit of the pandemic era.

Spoiler

Yes, I know a couple of Chinese films, F9, and Bond have bigger worldwide numbers. But this isn't just about worldwide numbers. If it was all about worldwide numbers, then China's nationalist film The Battle at Lake Changlin would be the biggest hit of the pandemic. And it's not. A lot of people in China saw the movie, but it hardly screened in North America. If this was all about worldwide numbers, even outside the pandemic, then Aguaman would be considered a bigger hit than Wonder Woman. But it's not. Wonder Woman is considered the DCEU's most successful film overall. And while Aguaman and Joker got comparable worldwide numbers, Joker is considered the far more bigger hit. That's because there are other things at play besides worldwide box office numbers.

Shang-Chi has the largest North American numbers for a popular movie during the pandemic era so far, though I agree those numbers will be dwarfed when SM No Way Home arrives.

But also what has to be considered is critical reaction, fan reaction, expectation vs the actual outcome, and its effect on popular culture at large.

F9 was just the 9th movie in a franchise that basically has given us the same thing over and over again. JB No Way to Die, while not exactly just another Bond movie as it was Craig's last film, seemed to underwhelm with both critics and fans and actually came under box office expectations in North America. Neither movie really moved the pop culture needle much.

Shang Chi, even though it was a MCU film, had very tempered expectations. I'm sure we all remember that, right? Even here in this forum? Critics and fans alike expected a lesser effort from Marvel based on the trailers. It was an unknown character and an Asian character at that. Box office expectations were tempered to about $50 million and sentiment about movie theaters overall was down.

Upon Shang Chi's arrival, the movie blew away box office predictions and scored $90+ million during its Labor Day weekend debut, a weekend that historically has had low box office numbers. Critical and fan reactions were almost unanimous that Shang Chi was a really good movie, again blowing away expectations. As much as I disparage the Rotten Tomatoes aggregate, I've never denied that it's still a cultural barometer for a movie's success at least in image. The RT scores for Shang Chi are 92% critics, 98% fans. Shang Chi also moved the pop culture needle in numerous ways. It suddenly changed the conversation about the impending demise of movie theaters and made them seem viable again (we've had this conversation and I've posted the numerous articles, tweets, and stock price figures that show it). It had the Black Panther effect of being another major super-hero featuring a non-white character that ended up being a positively received movie. Shang Chi was by all accounts, a hit.

In my summation, when considering North American box office, critic and fan reaction, expectations vs what actually happened, and how much it moves the pop culture needle, Shang Chi is so far the biggest hit of the pandemic era.

 

[Jaydogrules]

On 11/18/2021 at 8:03 AM, Bosco685 said:

Okay okay guys I finally get his argument now.  

Not counting the world, shang-chi is the #1 movie of the "pandemic era".  

-J.

[drotto]

On 11/18/2021 at 10:07 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

I'll repeat. In my summation, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings is the biggest hit of the pandemic era.

Yes, I know a couple of Chinese films, F9, and Bond have bigger worldwide numbers. But this isn't just about worldwide numbers. If it was all about worldwide numbers, then China's nationalist film The Battle at Lake Changlin would be the biggest hit of the pandemic. And it's not. A lot of people in China saw the movie, but it hardly screened in North America. If this was all about worldwide numbers, even outside the pandemic, then Aguaman would be considered a bigger hit than Wonder Woman. But it's not. Wonder Woman is considered the DCEU's most successful film overall. And while Aguaman and Joker got comparable worldwide numbers, Joker is considered the far more bigger hit. That's because there are other things at play besides worldwide box office numbers.

Shang-Chi has the largest North American numbers for a popular movie during the pandemic era so far, though I agree those numbers will be dwarfed when SM No Way Home arrives.

But also what has to be considered is critical reaction, fan reaction, expectation vs the actual outcome, and its effect on popular culture at large.

F9 was just the 9th movie in a franchise that basically has given us the same thing over and over again. JB No Way to Die, while not exactly just another Bond movie as it was Craig's last film, seemed to underwhelm with both critics and fans and actually came under box office expectations in North America. Neither movie really moved the pop culture needle much.

Shang Chi, even though it was a MCU film, had very tempered expectations. I'm sure we all remember that, right? Even here in this forum? Critics and fans alike expected a lesser effort from Marvel based on the trailers. It was an unknown character and an Asian character at that. Box office expectations were tempered to about $50 million and sentiment about movie theaters overall was down.

Upon Shang Chi's arrival, the movie blew away box office predictions and scored $90+ million during its Labor Day weekend debut, a weekend that historically has had low box office numbers. Critical and fan reactions were almost unanimous that Shang Chi was a really good movie, again blowing away expectations. As much as I disparage the Rotten Tomatoes aggregate, I've never denied that it's still a cultural barometer for a movie's success at least in image. The RT scores for Shang Chi are 92% critics, 98% fans. Shang Chi also moved the pop culture needle in numerous ways. It suddenly changed the conversation about the impending demise of movie theaters and made them seem viable again (we've had this conversation and I've posted the numerous articles, tweets, and stock price figures that show it). It had the Black Panther effect of being another major super-hero featuring a non-white character that ended up being a positively received movie. Shang Chi was by all accounts, a hit.

In my summation, when considering North American box office, critic and fan reaction, expectations vs what actually happened, and how much it moves the pop culture needle, Shang Chi is so far the biggest hit of the pandemic era.

 

That is an extremely narrow world view.  Tell the 95% of the people who do not live in the US they are irrelevant. Yes, the US is key to movie success, but the entertainment business has become world wide.  The numbers do not lie, they just do not fit your narrative. 

 

If the world wide box office does not matter, why has Disney (and other US film makers) spent millions  trying to adapt and make films more  friendly to the Chinese market (which is now biting them in the ). Shang-Chi was in many ways made for the Chinese market, and it is disingenuous to argue otherwise. However, Disney f'ed up by not realizing or understanding some of the cultural and racial themes that from a Chinese perspective were baked into the property.

 

Yes, it is a good movie, but where has Shang-Chi moved the pop culture needle? I do not see countless kids and people walking around with Shang-Chi shirts or being Shang-Chi characters for Halloween (although that may be consider appropriation).  After Black Panther, his merchandise was everywhere, along with the countless amount of Captain America and Ironman stuff I still see every day.  It seems to me that the movie has just faded away already. It did not save the movie theaters.  That was not and still is not something that can be done by one film.  Even if the movie made a billion, if no movies ever made money again, theaters still close.  Saving theaters needs multiple money makers. Did it perform better than originally projected, YES.  Is is still one of the lowest grossing MCU movies, also YES.  There can be no denying that Covid impacted the movie, but even using industry standards for adjusting to pre-pandemic (yes the likely flawed 15%), the movie is still lower tier earnings.

 

The Asian community has not rallied around this movie like the African American community did around Black Panther.  It is not a cultural touchstone for them.  There are just too many Asian sources of entertainment for Shang-Chi to be that important, and as mentioned the property has some fairly insensitive stuff built into it. I see far more cultural  impact in the younger age groups from My Hero Acidemia, and Demon Slayer then from Shang-Chi.  At NYCC this year I do not recall seeing anything Shang-Chi, those two properties were a dime a dozen. 

[▫️]

On 11/18/2021 at 7:08 PM, Jaydogrules said:

Okay okay guys I finally get his argument now.  

Not counting the world, shang-chi is the #1 movie of the "pandemic era".  

-J.

I’m actually mad I didn’t phrase it like that.

[Bosco685]

On 11/18/2021 at 11:42 AM, drotto said:

That is an extremely narrow world view.  Tell the 95% of the people who do not live in the US they are irrelevant. Yes, the US is key to movie success, but the entertainment business has become world wide.  The numbers do not lie, they just do not fit your narrative. 

Spoiler

If the world wide box office does not matter, why has Disney (and other US film makers) spent millions  trying to adapt and make films more  friendly to the Chinese market (which is now biting them in the ). Shang-Chi was in many ways made for the Chinese market, and it is disingenuous to argue otherwise. However, Disney f'ed up by not realizing or understanding some of the cultural and racial themes that from a Chinese perspective were baked into the property.

 

Yes, it is a good movie, but where has Shang-Chi moved the pop culture needle? I do not see countless kids and people walking around with Shang-Chi shirts or being Shang-Chi characters for Halloween (although that may be consider appropriation).  After Black Panther, his merchandise was everywhere, along with the countless amount of Captain America and Ironman stuff I still see every day.  It seems to me that the movie has just faded away already. It did not save the movie theaters.  That was not and still is not something that can be done by one film.  Even if the movie made a billion, if no movies ever made money again, theaters still close.  Saving theaters needs multiple money makers. Did it perform better than originally projected, YES.  Is is still one of the lowest grossing MCU movies, also YES.  There can be no denying that Covid impacted the movie, but even using industry standards for adjusting to pre-pandemic (yes the likely flawed 15%), the movie is still lower tier earnings.

 

The Asian community has not rallied around this movie like the African American community did around Black Panther.  It is not a cultural touchstone for them.  There are just too many Asian sources of entertainment for Shang-Chi to be that important, and as mentioned the property has some fairly insensitive stuff built into it. I see far more cultural  impact in the younger age groups from My Hero Acidemia, and Demon Slayer then from Shang-Chi.  At NYCC this year I do not recall seeing anything Shang-Chi, those two properties were a dime a dozen. 

 

"This is not accurate because..."

{checks Marvel Studios messaging points}

"...facts are what we say they are as there is nothing else successful in the world other than Marvel Studios and its films and streaming shows!"

p.s.

"Get a job you dirty Disney hater!"

[Bosco685]

 

[Cat]

Guys, this is easy. He's trying to use the 'Murika stats, and you're trying to bully him with global facts. Stick to ' Murika and it all makes sense. 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/18/2021 at 11:03 AM, Bosco685 said:

Yeah, that Battle of Lake Changjin movie just took the entire world by storm! Or not. I can also post lists...

 

[drotto]

On 11/18/2021 at 2:44 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Yeah, that Battle of Lake Changjin movie just took the entire world by storm! Or not. I can also post lists...

 

So when Eternals finishes with 175 or so million domestic, but sees more success internationally, does world wide box office become important again?  Remeber, this is around the same level a F9, which you have just dismissed. Just checking for the Disney response. 

[Bosco685]

On 11/18/2021 at 2:44 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Yeah, that Battle of Lake Changjin movie just took the entire world by storm! Or not. I can also post lists...

 

You manipulated the view to focus just on the domestic market. You posting 'lists' is more for laughs than logical reality. And funnier when you post point-in-time news articles where at that stage Shang-Chi was noted as gaining traction and in your mind the world stopped there at that point.

Be honest: Disney pays you in Jiminy Cricket bucks.

 

[sagekilz]

On 11/18/2021 at 2:01 PM, Bosco685 said:

You manipulated the view to focus just on the domestic market. You posting 'lists' is more for laughs than logical reality. And funnier when you post point-in-time news articles where at that stage Shang-Chi was noted as gaining traction and in your mind the world stopped there at that point.

Be honest: Disney pays you in Jiminy Cricket bucks.

 

I'll trade you a Schrute buck for your Cricket buck.

 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/18/2021 at 10:20 AM, paperheart said:

No, I'm not blind. I can read the worldwide box office list posted above. 

Regarding my previous off-the-cuff statement that Shang-Chi is the biggest hit of the pandemic, I carefully listed out my reasonings in a lengthy "wall of text" above stating why I consider Shang-Chi to be a bigger qualified hit than F9 or No Time to Die. Did you read it and did it make sense to you or are you the one being blind?

Are you going to sit at your computer (or mobile device) and seriously tell me that the nationalist communist Chinese film The Battle at Lake Changjin is the biggest hit of the pandemic?

[drotto]

On 11/18/2021 at 4:43 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

No, I'm not blind. I can read the worldwide box office list posted above. 

Regarding my previous off-the-cuff statement that Shang-Chi is the biggest hit of the pandemic, I carefully listed out my reasonings in a lengthy "wall of text" above stating why I consider Shang-Chi to be a bigger qualified hit than F9 or No Time to Die. Did you read it and did it make sense to you or are you the one being blind?

Are you going to sit at your computer (or mobile device) and seriously tell me that the nationalist communist Chinese film The Battle at Lake Changjin is the biggest hit of the pandemic?

Even if you say the Chinese numbers are complete fabrications, there remains the pesky issue that the numbers show 4 films still ahead of Shang-Chi. So it is still not the biggest hit of the Pandemic worldwide.  Are you seriously going to deny that?

[Finhead]

On 11/18/2021 at 2:43 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

No, I'm not blind. I can read the worldwide box office list posted above. 

Regarding my previous off-the-cuff statement that Shang-Chi is the biggest hit of the pandemic, I carefully listed out my reasonings in a lengthy "wall of text" above stating why I consider Shang-Chi to be a bigger qualified hit than F9 or No Time to Die. Did you read it and did it make sense to you or are you the one being blind?

Are you going to sit at your computer (or mobile device) and seriously tell me that the nationalist communist Chinese film The Battle at Lake Changjin is the biggest hit of the pandemic?

As @drottosays your missing to point or just ignoring facts. Even if you only wanted to talk CB movies or better yet Marvel based CB movies. Venom is the bigger WW box office currently and only growing. Your argument has no legs to stand on.