drotto Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 4:52 PM, Finhead said: As @drottosays your missing to point or just ignoring facts. Even if you only wanted to talk CB movies or better yet Marvel based CB movies. Venom is the bigger WW box office currently and only growing. Your argument has no legs to stand on. His argument only works if the only important market on the planet is the US. Nobody else matters. This may have been true 30 years ago. Since then, movie companies have realized that the world market is lucrative and essential to increasing profits. The US alone is not a big enough or a reliable enough market to increase profits. Many of the MCU billion dollars films would not have been possible without the WW market, and all the movies would have significantly lower overall numbers. He loves brining up his precious Captain Marvel. How does that impressive 1.1 billion box office look if you remove $700 billion from that number. theCapraAegagrus and Finhead 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finhead Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 3:03 PM, drotto said: His argument only works if the only important market on the planet is the US. Nobody else matters. This may have been true 30 years ago. Since then, movie companies have realized that the world market is lucrative and essential to increasing profits. The US alone is not a big enough or a reliable enough market to increase profits. Many of the MCU billion dollars films would not have been possible without the WW market, and all the movies would have significantly lower overall numbers. He loves brining up his precious Captain Marvel. How does that impressive 1.1 billion box office look if you remove $700 billion from that number. It would look like the sub par movie it was, and Marvel knew it was so they have to squeeze it between 2 of there biggest movies to get the numbers. Larryw7 and theCapraAegagrus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperheart Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 1:43 PM, @therealsilvermane said: No, I'm not blind. I can read the worldwide box office list posted above. Regarding my previous off-the-cuff statement that Shang-Chi is the biggest hit of the pandemic, I carefully listed out my reasonings in a lengthy "wall of text" above stating why I consider Shang-Chi to be a bigger qualified hit than F9 or No Time to Die. Did you read it and did it make sense to you or are you the one being blind? Are you going to sit at your computer (or mobile device) and seriously tell me that the nationalist communist Chinese film The Battle at Lake Changjin is the biggest hit of the pandemic? 'reasonings' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@therealsilvermane Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) On 11/18/2021 at 4:48 PM, drotto said: Even if you say the Chinese numbers are complete fabrications, there remains the pesky issue that the numbers show 4 films still ahead of Shang-Chi. So it is still not the biggest hit of the Pandemic worldwide. Are you seriously going to deny that? I don't deny that those four American movies have a higher worldwide box office gross than Shang-Chi. However... In my "wall of text" post a few posts above, I "carefully" laid out my reasons why I said Shang-Chi qualifies as a bigger hit than F9 and No Time to Die (that also includes Venom 2 and GvK), even though those four American films have a larger world wide box office than Shang-Chi. I left out worldwide box office because China, the world's largest movie market, is going through a government imposed nationalist isolationist movement right now and has banned a lot of Hollywood films including Shang-Chi. China is continuing to move away from Hollywood movies and wants to rely mostly on its own China-made movies going forward. The fact that The Battle of Lake Changjin's $900 million is all from China is proof that they can probably do it. But this year, the four American movies above Shang Chi in worldwide box office grosses were all given a pass to screen in China. For F9 and GvK, it was a majority of their box office gross. Even still, the most important market to American films is the country they were made in, the world's second largest movie market, America. The North American movie market, which includes Canada and Mexico, is still the biggest barometer of a film's box office success. So with that, concerning Shang Chi as possibly the biggest hit of the pandemic, I stated that I took into consideration North American box office, critics' reactions, fans' reactions, how much expectations were met or exceeded, and how much of an effect the movie had on culture and the industry. And oh yeah, that we're in a pandemic. In the pandemic era, Shang Chi has: 1. the highest North American box office gross of any North American movie, 2. has higher critic and fan scores on RT and Metacritic than those four other American movies, 3. exceeded box office and critical expectations whereas those four other films just met or fell short of expectations, 4. had a discernable effect on pop culture and the movie theater industry. Concerning that last one, movie theater CEO's were tweeting the good graces of Shang Chi (and Venom 2 I admit), not F9, not GvK, not No Time to Die. Are you going to deny that? Of course you are... Edited November 18, 2021 by @therealsilvermane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@therealsilvermane Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 5:03 PM, drotto said: He loves brining up his precious Captain Marvel. How does that impressive 1.1 billion box office look if you remove $700 billion from that number. Captain Marvel would be in the Top 25 of all-time domestic grosses, so not bad at all. Finhead 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drotto Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) On 11/18/2021 at 5:40 PM, @therealsilvermane said: Shang Chi has: 1. the highest North American box office gross of any North American movie, 2. has higher critic and fan scores on RT and Metacritic than those four other American movies, 3. exceeded box office and critical expectations whereas those four other films just met or fell short of expectations, 4. had a discernable effect on pop culture and the movie theater industry. Concerning that last one, movie theater CEO's were tweeting the good graces of Shang Chi (and Venom 2 I admit), not F9, not GvK, not No Time to Die. Are you going to deny that? Of course you are... 1. This is not deniable. US is not the soul important movie market anymore. 2. I though RT and other aggregators as well as critics were complete bunk based on how they have treated Eternals? 3. Shang-Chi was expected to exceed BW's $80 million and it did. Carnage was predicted $35 to $60, and did $90. That is far above. From what I found F9 was expected 60 to 65 million, it did $70. That seems to be above. Bond was 60 to 70 million, it did $55 so yes it missed by a few million. Godzilla vs. Kong was predicted $30 million, it did $31. All these do seem to be rather on target to me. None of them blew away expectations. Plus again this argument only work if you omit the rest of the world. In addition if you go by was above expectations, Carnage is the champ here. 4. Movie theater owners are not pop culture. So CEO's and some investors liked the box office results. I am sure they did giving the Covid circumstances. I would argue all the above films helped stabilize the movie industry. Not just Shang-Chi!!! Yet you insist it must be the one on top. Regardless, being pop culture relevant is not CEO's being pleased, it is kids wearing t-shirts, and buying toys. It is people talking about the film, and searching the internet for when their next Shang-Chi hit is or when that sequel is coming. Seems to me none of this has happened yet. Finally, according to the Disney investor meeting Shang-Chi, Black Widow, and Free Guy posted at $65 million dollar operating loss. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/10/disney-dis-fiscal-q4-2021-earnings.html Edited November 18, 2021 by drotto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finhead Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 4:02 PM, @therealsilvermane said: Captain Marvel would be in the Top 25 of all-time domestic grosses, so not bad at all. Who's butt are you pulling these numbers out of? It's not even in the top 100 of all time domestic, try 127th. https://www.boxofficemojo.com/chart/top_lifetime_gross_adjusted/?adjust_gross_to=2019 theCapraAegagrus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@therealsilvermane Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 To my fellow forumites who keep harping on worldwide box office gross, I realize its importance to a movie's overall profit. However, I pose the following: Aquaman grossed $335 million domestic, $1.15 billion worldwide. Wonder Woman grossed $425 million domestic, $818 billion worldwide. Aquaman got 65% critic, 74% audience scores on RT. Wonder Woman got 93% critic, 83% audience scores on RT. The Aquaman movie came and went in America as an okay movie. On the other hand, Wonder Woman became a movie phenomenon with many fans citing it as their favorite super-hero movie and giving hope to the sputtering DCEU franchise. Little girls everywhere suddenly had their own super-hero and Wonder Woman was one of the top selling Halloween costumes in 2017. Aquaman made $300 million more than Wonder Woman worldwide, but is anyone here seriously going to say that Aquaman was a bigger hit than Wonder Woman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco685 Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 5:40 PM, @therealsilvermane said: I don't deny that those four American movies have a higher worldwide box office gross than Shang-Chi. However... Spoiler In my "wall of text" post a few posts above, I "carefully" laid out my reasons why I said Shang-Chi qualifies as a bigger hit than F9 and No Time to Die (that also includes Venom 2 and GvK), even though those four American films have a larger world wide box office than Shang-Chi. I left out worldwide box office because China, the world's largest movie market, is going through a government imposed nationalist isolationist movement right now and has banned a lot of Hollywood films including Shang-Chi. China is continuing to move away from Hollywood movies and wants to rely mostly on its own China-made movies going forward. The fact that The Battle of Lake Changjin's $900 million is all from China is proof that they can probably do it. But this year, the four American movies above Shang Chi in worldwide box office grosses were all given a pass to screen in China. For F9 and GvK, it was a majority of their box office gross. Even still, the most important market to American films is the country they were made in, the world's second largest movie market, America. The North American movie market, which includes Canada and Mexico, is still the biggest barometer of a film's box office success. So with that, concerning Shang Chi as possibly the biggest hit of the pandemic, I stated that I took into consideration North American box office, critics' reactions, fans' reactions, how much expectations were met or exceeded, and how much of an effect the movie had on culture and the industry. And oh yeah, that we're in a pandemic. In the pandemic era, Shang Chi has: 1. the highest North American box office gross of any North American movie, 2. has higher critic and fan scores on RT and Metacritic than those four other American movies, 3. exceeded box office and critical expectations whereas those four other films just met or fell short of expectations, 4. had a discernable effect on pop culture and the movie theater industry. Concerning that last one, movie theater CEO's were tweeting the good graces of Shang Chi (and Venom 2 I admit), not F9, not GvK, not No Time to Die. Are you going to deny that? Of course you are... I'm sure Disney can cash checks based on, "Did you see the RT score Shang-Chi received?" By the way, so NOW we reference the RT ratings? How interesting. Meanwhile, welcome to the box office results of all the top worldwide releases. Venom: Let There Be Carnage is now $11.4M ahead of Shang-Chi. You know, the film that received this RT rating... Topped by this film with this RT rating... Finhead 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@therealsilvermane Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) On 11/18/2021 at 6:18 PM, Finhead said: Who's butt are you pulling these numbers out of? It's not even in the top 100 of all time domestic, try 127th. https://www.boxofficemojo.com/chart/top_lifetime_gross_adjusted/?adjust_gross_to=2019 I pulled those numbers out of Box Office Mojo's top lifetime domestic list butt... https://www.boxofficemojo.com/chart/top_lifetime_gross/?ref_=bo_lnav_hm_shrt It's #25 on the list. Edited November 18, 2021 by @therealsilvermane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finhead Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 4:25 PM, @therealsilvermane said: I pulled those numbers out of Box Office Mojo's top lifetime domestic list butt... https://www.boxofficemojo.com/chart/top_lifetime_gross/?ref_=bo_lnav_hm_shrt It's #25 on the list. LOL try again with the adjusted for inflation list I sent you. It made it to the 127th spot in 2019 currency. Again bend the narrative to fit your needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drotto Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) On 11/18/2021 at 6:20 PM, Bosco685 said: I'm sure Disney can cash checks based on, "Did you see the RT score Shang-Chi received?" By the way, so NOW we reference the RT ratings? How interesting. Meanwhile, welcome to the box office results of all the top worldwide releases. Venom: Let There Be Carnage is now $11.4M ahead of Shang-Chi. You know, the film that received this RT rating... Topped by this film with this RT rating... Remember, Shang-Chi is a cultural touch stone also. I see Wonder Woman shirts and merchandise almost everyday. I have seen lots are Carnage and Venom, t-shirts. Raise your hand if you have seen a Shang-Chi t-shirt. I have however seen lots of Shang-Chi toys with massive mark downs collecting dust on store shelves. To be honest as lame as Aquaman is (the movie was sorta OK), I see more Aquaman fans than Shang-Chi. Edited November 18, 2021 by drotto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drotto Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 6:28 PM, Finhead said: LOL try again with the adjusted for inflation list I sent you. It made it to the 127th spot in 2019 currency. Again bend the narrative to fit your needs. Notice, he said it is in the top 25, not it was 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finhead Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 4:32 PM, drotto said: Notice, he said it is in the top 25, not it was 25. What? Here's both his quotes. Seems pretty clear. "Captain Marvel would be in the Top 25 of all-time domestic grosses, so not bad at all." "It's #25 on the list. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drotto Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 6:36 PM, Finhead said: What? Here's both his quotes. Seems pretty clear. "Captain Marvel would be in the Top 25 of all-time domestic grosses, so not bad at all." "It's #25 on the list. " Yeah, but his first post he did not say that. He corrected it in the second post after you called him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco685 Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 6:32 PM, drotto said: Notice, he said it is in the top 25, not it was 25. On 11/18/2021 at 6:36 PM, Finhead said: What? Here's both his quotes. Seems pretty clear. "Captain Marvel would be in the Top 25 of all-time domestic grosses, so not bad at all." "It's #25 on the list. " I wonder sometimes if he is an AI unit created by CGC so as to stir up conversation over the craziest of hardcore fan statements. Kind of like those robocalls when 'Lisa' calls and before going into her automated pitch it giggles and notes "I had to adjust my headset can you hear me" but the same sound file is used for car insurance, drug litigation cases and mortgage rate calls. Beige, Finhead, drotto and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperheart Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 trying to distract from, i've seen better legs on a table Gatsby77 and Finhead 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@therealsilvermane Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 6:28 PM, Finhead said: LOL try again with the adjusted for inflation list I sent you. It made it to the 127th spot in 2019 currency. Again bend the narrative to fit your needs. LOL try again with the actual modern list I sent you. It made it to the 25th spot not counting that movies like Gone With the Wind and Star Wars also had multiple re-releases at the theaters over the decades because there was no such thing as home video or streaming. Again bend the narrative to fit your needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drotto Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 On 11/18/2021 at 6:50 PM, @therealsilvermane said: LOL try again with the actual modern list I sent you. It made it to the 25th spot not counting that movies like Gone With the Wind and Star Wars also had multiple re-releases at the theaters over the decades because there was no such thing as home video or streaming. Again bend the narrative to fit your needs. You can not remove movies from the list based on an arbitrary decision that re-release should not count. Up until the mid 80's and really into the 90's when cable, and VHS became prevalent, that was a valid means to get a film back out that the public still wanted to see. It was a common practice. Also did not Endgame do the same thing adding a few minutes of half complete footage to beat Avatar? Did Avatar not then come back and have it's own re-release to take back the top spot? So we now have to go back and edit the entire list based on this criteria. theCapraAegagrus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco685 Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 Finhead and theCapraAegagrus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
