When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game? 3 3

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 minutes ago, Randall Dowling said:

FWIW RMA, I wasn’t suggesting that the two interventions are at all comparable.  What I think we both know, is that not being able to detect 100% of the time, is a common argument  for non-disclosure.  And if that’s the standard, then it should apply to all other interventions.  But it doesn’t.  And I don’t think it’s really that cynical to think that the current stance on disclosure is driven by money.  

I could be wrong, but I think our positions aren’t as far apart as it may seem.  Except, you’re probably joking about fixing those Cole Schave books with more pressing.  Right??

Trimming is 100% detectable, 100% of the time. Whether it is detected or not is a separate issue. If it's been done...it's detectable. It may be very difficult to detect...but it's detectable. It doesn't occur by accident, ever. There is always intent when it is performed. Pressing is not 100% detectable, 100% of the time. Natural circumstance can look like professional pressing. That's the difference.

I don't have any issue with disclosure. If someone doesn't want to buy my books because they've been pressed, great. It means I get to keep them. If I didn't have to sell books to be able to buy more books, I'd never sell a single one.

As far as the Cole Schave books, I'd have to see one in hand. 

I don't agree with the idea that there is "shrinkage"...at least, not in any significant way.

I think it was a case of pressers trying to re-align the spines, to "roll" the spine stress to the back of the cover, where it wasn't as visible. Also...if you don't prep a book right, you can "realign" the cover in such a was as it looks like shrinkage, because the cover can shift slightly if the staples aren't in the right place. I imagine that's what happened, but again, I'd have to see some of these books in hand.

[comicwiz]

1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

I think I know far too much about the card hobby and what's in those card slabs

You said this right? My statement relates to this, and why I addressed you as grand puba. I was going for the artsy effect in my spelling, but you went and did what you know best which is to let everyone know you have a superiority complex.

[James J Johnson]

46 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

I see it as an identical problem when undisclosed alterations achieve an inflated grade.

Except for two things.

1) passive vs. invasive. Passive gets a blue label. Invasive does not.

2) Those are the rules of the system..

[James J Johnson]

Just now, comicwiz said:

You said this right? My statement relates to this, and why I addressed you as grand puba. I was going for the artsy effect in my spelling, but you went and did what you know best which is to let everyone know you have a superiority complex.

"Superiority complex?

Being able to identify trimmed, stretched, recolored, bleached, and fake cards is a superiority complex? Or just claiming to have that ability?

You certainly do have a gift for making some strange remarks. 

[VintageComics]

1 hour ago, JWKyle said:

i'm not against pressing and I have no problem with disclosure either. Say CGC made a note that a book was pressed by CCS in the verified label area I would be 1000% for that.  

The problem that exists with CGC notating which books were pressed by CCS and which were not is that it can't be done consistently with books that are not pressed by CCS.

And that is also the problem with detecting pressing. Even if you guess correctly on half the books, the other half are a coin toss.

CGC is not in the business of selling coin toss opinions. People pay for an educated opinion, not a guess.

They won't declare a book as restored, or trimmed (or whatever) unless they are sure it's so.

Do you want them guessing on pressing? Nobody does. We're paying big dollars for books because we believe they are NOT guessing.

It's probably why the have not considered a properly disassmebled and reassembled book as restored. If done properly, it's undetectable.

And before someone screams that CGC is ruining the hobby, everyone should pull out their old Overstreet Price Guides and read the recommended grading standards in detail. Removing and replacing staples was allowed up to certain grades and NOT considered restoration.

Context is important when discussing things because nothing happens in a vacuum and this hobby has evolved for 80 years. I don't expect things to be the same today as they were when Pop Hollinger was taping books in the 40's and they will continue to change.

Maybe pressing will one day swing in the other direction and be frowned upon 200 years from now the way the opinion of restoration has changed from being 'good' to 'bad' but right now, this is where we are at.

[James J Johnson]

5 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

You said this right? My statement relates to this, and why I addressed you as grand puba. I was going for the artsy effect in my spelling, but you went and did what you know best which is to let everyone know you have a superiority complex.

BTW, do you presently own any CGC graded comics?

[comicwiz]

2 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Being able to identify trimmed, stretched, recolored, bleached, and fake cards is a superiority complex? Or just claiming to have that ability?

For someone with such abilities, it's remarkable that with all that's been shared in this thread, you still believe everything in a blue label is (passive) deserving of its grade.

I'd say you have a gift, but being obtuse is the kind you keep in the shed.

[comicwiz]

2 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

BTW, do you presently own any CGC graded comics?

Yes. What does that have to do with the discussion?

[James J Johnson]

 

3 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

Yes. What does that have to do with the discussion?

Relevance. Goes toward your character and my being obtuse.

Edited July 25, 2019 by James J Johnson

[VintageComics]

15 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

As far as the Cole Schave books, I'd have to see one in hand. 

I don't agree with the idea that there is "shrinkage"...at least, not in any significant way.

I think it was a case of pressers trying to re-align the spines, to "roll" the spine stress to the back of the cover, where it wasn't as visible. Also...if you don't prep a book right, you can "realign" the cover in such a was as it looks like shrinkage, because the cover can shift slightly if the staples aren't in the right place. I imagine that's what happened, but again, I'd have to see some of these books in hand.

I was apparently 'called out' in the Cole Schave shrunken cover thread because I'm evil  so allow me to fill you in.

I took an interest in the discussion because I'm a knowledge buff on things that interest me and it turns out that SA Marvel covers DO shrink. They shrink laterally and grow longitudinally - it's why we have overhang on Silver Age Marvels.

SA Marvels were folded, stapled and then trimmed so all the covers should be flush with the edges of the interior pages, but they rarely are.

Why?

Most SA Marvels have shrunken covers. If you find one in the wild that isn't shrunken it CAN be mistaken as trimmed but actually isn't.

But most people don't realize that.

So from what I understand, the covers did shrink on the CS books MORE than they had shrunken before but the reality is that the covers are in a perpetual stage of shrinking from the day they were printed. The improper pressing techniques CCS used just sped it up .

[comicwiz]

2 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

 

Relevance. Goes toward your character and my being obtuse.

No idea what you're implying, but your self-awareness is commendable.

[comicwiz]

5 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

The improper pressing techniques CCS used just sped it up

Unnecessarily sped things up.

Edited July 25, 2019 by comicwiz

[Prince Namor]

7 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

Yes. Who press now. But pressed books already existed in abundance, long before the past 15 years, other than of course, Sue, who we all know never pressed a comic.

And no one color touched to sell a book! And the hobby was innocent! All the dealers were fair and graded accurately! No one ripped anyone off or were in it for the money!

Yeah, it's all silly.

[James J Johnson]

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

And no one color touched to sell a book! And the hobby was innocent! All the dealers were fair and graded accurately! No one ripped anyone off or were in it for the money!

Yeah, it's all silly.

I was being facetious. ComicWiz was maintaining that Sue never pressed books. Ever. Which we all know to be false. Pressing was an option right on the Restoration Lab certificates.

[VintageComics]

1 minute ago, comicwiz said:

5 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

The improper pressing techniques CCS used just sped it up

Unvecessarily sped things up.

Hey, we finally agree on something!

I stuck tape to a high grade ASM #129 while having a gin and tonic 17 years ago and tore the cover. I dropped an ultra high grade Avengers #4 IN A SCANNER once.

It's truly a shame but it happens.

[kav]

The whole 'disclosure' argument is a non starter.  Sure the presser can disclose it to the buyer but thats where it ends.  It can be resold 10 times after that with no 'disclosure'.  I see the disclosure argument is a self justifying one.  CGC can disclose books pressed by CCS but whats the point?  Plenty of other undetected pressed books would still be slabbed and they might command a premium and CGC would be shooting itself in the foot.  I dont wanna hear about disclosure no more.

[NewWorldOrder]

So not sure when the shoe will drop, but pressing comics has bought me a lot of nice shoes actually!  

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, Randall Dowling said:

I agree with every part of this.

See, there is common ground. Disclosure. I'm all for it too.

[Randall Dowling]

5 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I dropped an ultra high grade Avengers #4 IN A SCANNER once.

That’s not okay.  You just dropped points in my book, sir!

[comicwiz]

2 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

And no one color touched to sell a book! And the hobby was innocent! All the dealers were fair and graded accurately! No one ripped anyone off or were in it for the money!

Yeah, it's all silly.

All of this still goes on. It's a false equivalence because no one (at least back in the days you are referring to) self-appointed themselves as an impartial grading authority. Worst of all, the self-appointed grader was supposed to protect us from the Dupchaks, but instead they put a price on their "impartiality" and now we have everyone with a press in their basement deciding we aren't capable to think for ourselves, and enjoy a comic with defects. Defects be damned, there's money to be made.