When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game? 3 3

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

Do you want them guessing on pressing? Nobody does.

Why not? Supposedly people don't care that books are pressed and it doesn't affect prices.

I mean, if it does affect prices then isn't nondisclosure deceptive? Is it okay to deceive people in the name of profit?

[Randall Dowling]

12 minutes ago, kav said:

A notation saying this book was definitely pressed would maybe lower the market value.

I think you’re 100% correct about this.

[VintageComics]

26 minutes ago, JWKyle said:

1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

The problem that exists with CGC notating which books were pressed by CCS and which were not is that it can't be done consistently with books that are not pressed by CCS.

 

That's why I stated only books pressed by CCS would be noted. They would know 100% for sure the book went through the process. I was not happy when CGC brought CCS into the fold. Grading books from CCS is basically grading their own work. They state that none of this info is know by the graders but they are so closed lip on certain aspects of the process how can you be sure. If the FBI were to come into our hobby hopefully it would be to split the "pressing" departments on both grading companies into a separate entity. In-house work is a conflict of interest period. 

Ah, I see. you're talking from a conflict of interest POV. I don't disagree that there is a conflict of interest.

Not sure if you're aware, but CGC officially hired Mark Zaid (a prominent East Coast lawyer if you guys don't know who he is - just Google the name -he's in the news all the time) to do an internet audit of CGC and CCS practices to 'prove' that there was no internal conflict of interest. Now I trust Mark to  be honest, but you also can't police every single book.

Where I think it's unfair is that books being transported from around the country to CGC go through a different handling than books that are walked down the hall in an air conditioned climate.

But that's a different discussion.

23 minutes ago, kav said:

A notation saying this book was definitely pressed would maybe lower the market value.

Or would it raise the market value of unpressed books?

And let's dig a little deeper (this just hit me).

In turn, you would have people PUTTING DENTS INTO BOOKS just enough so that it wouldn't lower the grade but enough to get an unpressed notation and have a broader buying pool - both collectors who want virgin books AND buyers who are looking for upgrades.

And it's a lot easier to 'unpress' a book (you know what I mean) than it is to press one.

See how that works? You create one solution and you open another can of worms.

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

15 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

I mean, if it does affect prices then isn't nondisclosure deceptive? Is it okay to deceive people in the name of profit?

I just replied in my post above to this idea.

[kav]

Just now, VintageComics said:

Ah, I see. you're talking from a conflict of interest POV. I don't disagree that there is a conflict of interest.

Not sure if you're aware, but CGC officially hired Mark Zaid (a prominent East Coast lawyer if you guys don't know who he is - just Google the name -he's in the news all the time) to do an internet audit of CGC and CCS practices to 'prove' that there was no internal conflict of interest. Now I trust Mark to  be honest, but you also can't police every single book.

Where I think it's unfair is that books being transported from around the country to CGC go through a different handling than books that are walked down the hall in an air conditioned climate.

But that's a different discussion.

Or would it raise the market value of unpressed books?

And let's dig a little deeper (this just hit me).

In turn, you would have people PUTTING DENTS INTO BOOKS just enough so that it wouldn't lower the grade but enough to get an unpressed notation and have a broader buying pool - both collectors who want virgin books AND buyers who are looking for upgrades.

See how that works? You create one solution and you open another can of worms.

 

I'm denting all my books immediately.

[Lazyboy]

3 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

Because you stated that everybody should have the same knowledge.

He's more the type to reject knowledge, especially when it's pointed out that his ebay listings are inaccurate and deceptive.

[FlyingDonut]

5 hours ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

I think someone that managed to  preserve their books in pristine condition should be rewarded more so than someone that couldn’t. 

So does the market. Original owner unpressed books claim a premium.

[RockMyAmadeus]

32 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Why not? Supposedly people don't care that books are pressed and it doesn't affect prices.

I mean, if it does affect prices then isn't nondisclosure deceptive? Is it okay to deceive people in the name of profit?

You put two books in front of me, both the same grade (say, a 9.8, because that's functionally the "limit" to improvement), and say this book has been pressed, and this book has not, that information will not matter to me (because it has not mattered to me.) I will pick the one that looks the nicest to me. You put two 8.0 books in front of me, same situation, and I'll probably pick the unpressed one IF...and ONLY IF...I see improvement potential. Otherwise, it's the same: whichever one looks the nicest to me. 

And if the price is good enough, I'll just buy them both.

[FlyingDonut]

4 hours ago, kav said:

I'm just saying I do not believe the majority of comic collectors know about pressing.  I collected comics for 50 years and did not learn about it until I came here.  I never heard it mentioned at any time at a comic shop or by other collectors.  I think saying 'most collectors know about pressing' is just some kind of self justification that it's ok, pulled from exactly nowhere.

I'll give you that the majority of comic collectors do not know about pressing.

The overwhelming majority - perhaps 100% - of people buying CGC slabs absolutely knows about pressing.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, FlyingDonut said:

5 hours ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

I think someone that managed to  preserve their books in pristine condition should be rewarded more so than someone that couldn’t. 

So does the market. Original owner unpressed books claim a premium.

But this begs a question, which is a very important one: what kind of premium? Is a 9.4 unpressed OO book getting a premium over other "typical" 9.4s of the same book that are assumed to be pressed?

And are those premiums because they are unpressed...or because buyers know they might be able to improve them?

And is there any way to even remotely begin to answer those questions?

I pay a premium for books I know I stand a good shot at improving, because it makes sense. I'm not doing it because I want to own an unpressed book.

 

[FlyingDonut]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

2014 was a completely different time with regard to pressing. There weren't pressers with giant banners advertising their pressing like "Rocket Comics" and "Condition Potential Realization Service" on convention floors. That's now the change.

If a person submits to CGC, they're going to (usually) be asked if they want pressing. I imagine the same thing is true of CBCS. In 2014, CBCS had barely started, and the submission forms (back when there were still forms) hadn't yet incorporated CCS.

When I have worked as a facilitator/authorized submission dropoff, pressing is discussed with everyone. 

Al Stoltz spent two days walking the floor at San Diego taking pressing books. He did not set up.

[James J Johnson]

2 minutes ago, FlyingDonut said:

I'll give you that the majority of comic collectors do not know about pressing.

The overwhelming majority - perhaps 100% - of people buying CGC slabs absolutely knows about pressing.

+1

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, FlyingDonut said:

I'll give you that the majority of comic collectors do not know about pressing.

The overwhelming majority - perhaps 100% - of people buying CGC slabs absolutely knows about pressing.

Exactly, which was the point that was made before. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

And then there is, if it is "unpressed", do you pay the premium for it considering pressing is then going to cost you more once purchased.....?

[VintageComics]

5 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

But this begs a question, which is a very important one: what kind of premium?

The market decides. Depends on who is bidding / buying and who is selling.

But generally speaking, 9.4 books that are improvable can sell for premiums to right under what a bidder feels the improveable grade is.

I've seen 8.5 books go for 9.2 money and I've seen 9.4 books go for 9.5/9.6 money so it all depends on various factors.

Edited July 25, 2019 by VintageComics

[kav]

6 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The issue in cards was that this stuff was being done on the sly, without the general public being aware of it. That's not the case in comics. The general comic buying public is aware that these things are happening, and has generally accepted it.

 

[Rip]

I have so few collectors asking me about pressed books its become a non-issue for all but a very very small group.

Even when they ask if the book has been pressed (they usually ask because they want to press it themselves) will still buy the book.

But I feel like I've seen this play out. I remember all the problems with the Network of Disclosure. Ask Rosenberg. I remember certain member(s) getting kicked because they bought other members non pressed/improvable books and then turned around pressed/slabbed and sold them without disclosure.

Lesson: If you aren't pressing someone who IS pressing is waiting to buy your books and maximize to its full extent. If your book "looks pressed" its simply not an accurate enough label to stick. Especially by a skilled presser the 2nd go around.

[FlyingDonut]

15 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Exactly, which was the point that was made before. 

If you can press a Fantastic Four 179 into a CGC 9.8 with white pages, I will make it worth your while.

[porcupine48]

On 7/23/2019 at 5:21 PM, comicwiz said:

I 100% agree. I heard he was pushed out from posting here from one of the bellends of this forum. I hope that's not true, but that's what I heard.

Bellends  

[Buzzetta]

5 hours ago, kav said:

I agree they are NOT aware.  I talk to people at LCS a lot and if I mention pressing even to the employees I get "huh"?

I mentioned to the store owner of my LCS that I send my books to be pressed when I get things graded and even he has heard of Joe.  He called him "Joey the Presser" though.