When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game? 3 3

[NP_Gresham]

4 hours ago, pickycollector said:

Is this the new pressing thread? 

Nothing to see here.

Just ironing out a few wrinkles.

[James J Johnson]

5 hours ago, comicwiz said:

That allowed a handful of members to start following Moser's trail.

In what year did this occur? A handful of members becoming wary of Moser then following his trail because of a slabbed Stan Musial card with a remedied stain?

[VintageComics]

45 minutes ago, Scott W. said:

Are there any dedicated "horror story" threads out there with similar tales of woe?

People have had threads like that in the past. Not sure where they are now.

[VintageComics]

14 hours ago, porcupine48 said:

17 hours ago, Rip said:

But I feel like I've seen this play out. I remember all the problems with the Network of Disclosure. Ask Rosenberg. I remember certain member(s) getting kicked because they bought other members non pressed/improvable books and then turned around pressed/slabbed and sold them without disclosure.

 

Brutal.

The NOD was an experiment that did not go well.

But it was also a microcosm of what would happen if disclosure was forced.

And it didn't work, because it got exploited by people who wouldn't disclose.

In the end, from what I remember, a lot of people just got mad at each other and it folded. At least that was the impression I got.

It was a good idea but it was never going to work from a practical standpoint.

 

[VintageComics]

5 hours ago, kimik said:

Last year at the Calgary Expo there was a BC based seller that had a bunch of nice GA books that he was not disclosing resto on (the light color touch with a crayon was tough to spot unless you know what to look for). Supposedly he claimed that he was unaware of it, but when all of the books that I saw were restored, it was evident that he either did it himself or bought them restored. Regardless, there was a feeding frenzy for the books as most of the people that purchased them were unaware and paid full unrestored value. 

So, what you're saying is that certification works and that all of the books should have been graded.

[James J Johnson]

22 hours ago, comicwiz said:

 The part which has never made sense to me is that many of these invasive, and tactics to make a quick buck are more destructive than restorative, and the entire reason for CGC to exist was to eliminate guys like Dupchak, and the exact opposite happened

I missed this post yesterday, an excerpt from it above. I may be able to help you make perfect sense of this. CGC is a business, started by businessmen, very good ones in fact, and very competent comic people to make money (gasp), like any other business. IMO, that was the purpose. I can't speak directly for any of those involved in the creation of CGC, but I'd find it hard to believe that their only reason for being was to thwart any of the comic book mechanics of the day. Sue C. would examine books for resto for a small fee. Grading services had been tried before, in a cut-rate way, failed, and the hobby was long overdue for some type of governing body to instill confidence and legitimacy to the hobby, breathing life into it. And thankfully, they did. Because the landscape of the hobby would resemble 1999 far more than 2019 if they didn't.

[porcupine48]

17 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

The NOD was an experiment that did not go well.

But it was also a microcosm of what would happen if disclosure was forced.

And it didn't work, because it got exploited by people who wouldn't disclose.

In the end, from what I remember, a lot of people just got mad at each other and it folded. At least that was the impression I got.

It was a good idea but it was never going to work from a practical standpoint.

 

Oh,I remember all the N.O.D. stuff.Just sleazy what some people were doing.Sure once you've bought them they're your books,but...

 

[VintageComics]

4 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

23 hours ago, comicwiz said:

 The part which has never made sense to me is that many of these invasive, and tactics to make a quick buck are more destructive than restorative, and the entire reason for CGC to exist was to eliminate guys like Dupchak, and the exact opposite happened

I missed this post yesterday, an excerpt from it above. I may be able to help you make perfect sense of this. CGC is a business, started by businessmen, very good ones in fact, and very competent comic people to make money (gasp), like any other business. IMO, that was the purpose. I can't speak directly for any of those involved in the creation of CGC, but I'd find it hard to believe that their only reason for being was to thwart any of the comic book mechanics of the day. Sue C. would examine books for resto for a small fee. Grading services had been tried before, in a cut-rate way, failed, and the hobby was long overdue for some type of governing body to instill confidence and legitimacy to the hobby, breathing life into it. And thankfully, they did. Because the landscape of the hobby would resemble 1999 far more than 2019 if they didn't.

Much like the law works in society, it's not perfect but it is meant to protect the majority.

And so even though CGC has it's problems, it for the most part has benefited the majority of people.

There will always be areas to exploit (just as there is in the law) but it makes the playing field level for MOST people and that was the entire goal.

[James J Johnson]

4 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

Much like the law works in society, it's not perfect but it is meant to protect the majority.

And so even though CGC has it's problems, it for the most part has benefited the majority of people.

There will always be areas to exploit (just as there is in the law) but it makes the playing field level for MOST people and that was the entire goal.

And a business opportunity, or if making money was totally unimportant, submission and services would have been free of charge, right? It would have been a totally philanthropic operation, like many charities, CGC services for free, but donations gratefully accepted.

Edited July 25, 2019 by James J Johnson

[VintageComics]

4 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

And a business opportunity, or if making money was totally unimportant, submission and services would have been free of charge, right? It would have been a totally philanthropic operation, like many charities, CGC services for free, but donations gratefully accepted.

I have 5 4 posts left before I hit 93,000. I just wasted one on you.

But yeah. Globalization and the internet opened doors for a lot of business opportunities and if CGC didn't open someone else would have (and many have since).

[namisgr]

1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

It's odd that you're a scientist but would be OK with CGC guessing on pressed books.

I never suggested such a thing.  It's odd that you would claim I did.

[James J Johnson]

1 minute ago, VintageComics said:

I have 5 4 posts left before I hit 93,000. I just wasted one on you. 

I have 2, make that 1 post left before I hit 2622. Let's see if I ever make that mistake again.

[VintageComics]

Just now, namisgr said:

1 hour ago, VintageComics said:

It's odd that you're a scientist but would be OK with CGC guessing on pressed books.

I never suggested such a thing.  It's odd that you would claim I did.

Sorry, I may have conflated two different poster's thoughts then.

So you're saying you'd be OK with CGC notating which books came from CCS but not looking for pressing on books that didn't come from CCS?

Or are you OK with CGC attempting to detect pressing even if they can't do it consistently?

[namisgr]

5 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Sorry, I may have conflated two different poster's thoughts then.

So you're saying you'd be OK with CGC notating which books came from CCS but not looking for pressing on books that didn't come from CCS?

Or are you OK with CGC attempting to detect pressing even if they can't do it consistently?

For starters, I no longer have skin in the game.  But I still believe that of course prospective buyers should be given as much information as possible on the provenance and history of slabbed books, and that would include denoting on the label when a comic has been pressed, when the judgement can be made with about the same certainty that goes into designating books as universal, conserved, and restored (i.e., not 100% but some figure approaching it).  That would include books that were pressed in house and those that show the stigmata of having been pressed, especially apparent in early Silver Age Marvels.

 The whole acceptance of deception and hiding information isn't a good look for the hobby, in my opinion.

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by namisgr

[VintageComics]

8 minutes ago, namisgr said:

For starters, I longer have skin in the game.  But I still believe that of course prospective buyers should be given as much information as possible on the provenance and history of slabbed books, and that would include denoting on the label when a comic has been pressed with about the same certainty that goes into designating books as universal, conserved, and restored (i.e., not 100% but some figure approaching it).  The whole attitude toward deception and hiding information isn't a good look for the hobby, in my opinion.

 

It's an interesting point of view to me, and I'll tell you why.

I took the same position years ago on a completely different topic stating that 'more information was better' even if it wasn't complete.

I got lambasted, trash talked, accused of having an agenda - you name it. Even if none of the things people were saying was true, I was vilified because I thought 'more information was better than less information.

But collectors are a very emotional bunch. Especially comic book collectors.

Tangent: Remember when the boards changed over the 1st time back in the mid 2000's? There was an uproar on here about it.

Meanwhile, Architect pointed out that in the coin forums there was nary a blip about it.

Why?

Because comic book collectors are a highly emotional, vocal bunch.

My point?

Because we're emotional, we are also selective / subjective about the windmills we tilt at.

Look at the outrage in this thread. It's like a thread discussing American politics (I'm Canadian BTW in case anyone doesn't know). There is venom seething from some posters about others. Good people are being painted as the most vile of people over pressed books. You'd think there were actual criminals in this discussion by some of the reactions.

And so we are at a point in the hobby where books that are known to be unpressed (like our collection when you auctioned it) fetch a premium because of it.

 

I still think more information is better than less information, but I also understand why it wouldn't work for a business.

Yes, unpressed books would be more desirable (for both collectors and upgraders) but a business would never put itself in a position where all of it's products are not on a level playing field.

Personally, I'd prefer a perfect world where everyone was 100% honest and disclosure was the norm and pressing wasn't a thing.

But stuff like that doesn't happen so I've come to accept pressing as not being an evil thing and unavoidable so it's become a part of the hobby for me.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

“Look at the outrage in this thread”

 

I’m not seeing it....

[LordRahl]

CGC made a business decision a long time ago. They decided that they could not reliably tell pressing so they would not try. They were clear on this. They are a business and offer a service, they can offer that service in any way they see fit. It is then up to the consumer if that is acceptable. No one forces people to send books to CGC to grade. We know that they don't look for and label pressing yet we still use the service. If so many people believed that this was unacceptable, the natural outcome would have been that they would have stopped having books graded by CGC and CGC would have either had to adjust or go out of business. They didn't and still aren't doing anything nefarious. You can't blame CGC for not wanting to be put in a situation where they are guessing if something is pressed. If you don't like their stance, again no one is forcing you to use them. Go use CBCS... oh wait they do the same thing. PGX then I guess. Or don't get your books graded by any 3rd party. Point being, we the consumer have said that CGC's stance is fine with us because we have kept on keeping on with the grading. It's the people that keep thinking that CGC should be some kind of hobby watchdog that seem to have a problem with this. They have never positioned themselves as a watchdog, only a neutral 3rd party grader.

[THE_BEYONDER]

12 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

CGC made a business decision a long time ago. They decided that they could not reliably tell pressing so they would not try. 

CGC took the stance that pressing wasn’t resto because they needed to use pressing to fix the books their holder was damaging.  This was originally done in secret, not only because pressing was considered restoration, but because CGC didn’t want consumers to know that their holders were causing SCS. The undetectable angle came when it was revealed that Chris Friesen was secretly pressing books in-house, and CGC had to address the issue to the public.

Edited July 25, 2019 by THE_BEYONDER

[Lazyboy]

9 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

CGC made a business decision a long time ago. They decided that they could not reliably tell pressing and acceptance of pressing as "non-restorative" would benefit them so they would not try. They were clear on this eventually admitted that they did not classify pressing as restoration.

Fixed.

[LordRahl]

2 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Fixed.

It would not have benefited them much if everyone stopped sending books to be graded, would it? So again, they made a business decision to not look for and label pressing (for whatever reason). We are the ones that endorsed that decision by continuing to do business under those terms.