When will the other shoe drop with CGC and the 'crack, press, and resub' game? 3 3

[porcupine48]

2 hours ago, Rip said:

 

But I feel like I've seen this play out. I remember all the problems with the Network of Disclosure. Ask Rosenberg. I remember certain member(s) getting kicked because they bought other members non pressed/improvable books and then turned around pressed/slabbed and sold them without disclosure.

 

Brutal.

[NP_Gresham]

Maybe Bud Selig could look into this

I am sure this hobby is totally legit 

[kav]

1 minute ago, NP_Gresham said:

Maybe Bud Selig could look into this

I am sure this hobby is totally legit 

Spenser would crack this thing wide open.

[Prince Namor]

4 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

I mentioned to the store owner of my LCS that I send my books to be pressed when I get things graded and even he has heard of Joe.  He called him "Joey the Presser" though. 

I think most LCS are filled with collectors.... people who buy and read comics. This forum is filled more with hobbyists. people who see comics from a value standpoint. They're the one's who know what pressing is.

The guys I see in LCS's, still buy modern Marvel and DC (eww..) and trying to actually find non-key issues to fill in runs of some long ended comic series. Which is why the high dollar back issue and CGC graded books are scarce in most shops.

The hobbyist is less inclined to care about Moderns and is constantly seeking keys, the best looking raws, the highest graded of a specific book, etc.

All of those guys (or gals) know what pressing is.

[Prince Namor]

4 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

A majority of slab buyers, sure. But considering some of the newbs post in the Newbie Comic Collecting Questions and Comic Book Grading and Restoration Issues forums (not that other sections are immune), there's no way it's even near 100%, and that's only the people who bother to come here and post to let us know they're clueless.

Well newbie's aren't of course - they're still asking basic questions, but I would think anyone who spends any amount of time on this as a hobbyist is going to quickly know.

[joeypost]

When walking around the convention floor at the next comic show, pay attention to the conversations taking place. Make a note of every conversation about pressing. You will be surprised how many there are. 

[Buzzetta]

4 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

I think most LCS are filled with collectors.... people who buy and read comics. This forum is filled more with hobbyists. people who see comics from a value standpoint. They're the one's who know what pressing is.

The guys I see in LCS's, still buy modern Marvel and DC (eww..) and trying to actually find non-key issues to fill in runs of some long ended comic series. Which is why the high dollar back issue and CGC graded books are scarce in most shops.

The hobbyist is less inclined to care about Moderns and is constantly seeking keys, the best looking raws, the highest graded of a specific book, etc.

All of those guys (or gals) know what pressing is.

I would agree to this as the majority of LCS, at least around the NYC / Long Island area, are not getting in the collections that yield these high level books.  As a collector you do not see boxes of CGC slabs in the stores. However there are a lot of LCS shoppers that are obviously familiar with CGC and will collect those on the side. He has heard of Joe through other customers it seems.  Which reminds me, at some point I have to pick up my copy of ASM. 

[DanCooper]

10 hours ago, Rip said:

 I remember all the problems with the Network of Disclosure. Ask Rosenberg. I remember certain member(s) getting kicked because they bought other members non pressed/improvable books and then turned around pressed/slabbed and sold them without disclosure.

I think Billy wrote a song about the incident:

"Rosenbergs, H-bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom
Brando, "The King and I" and "The Catcher in the Rye"

[namisgr]

9 hours ago, Rip said:

It's not limited to just high grade books. It's books of any age/grade that can be improved for a profit risk worth taking.

I haven't been buying those any more either.

[kimik]

11 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

I mentioned to the store owner of my LCS that I send my books to be pressed when I get things graded and even he has heard of Joe.  He called him "Joey the Presser" though. 

Awesome! Now I will introduce Joe to local collectors at the Calgary Expo next year as "Joey the Presser" and see what their reaction is.  

[comicwiz]

18 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The issue in cards was that this stuff was being done on the sly, without the general public being aware of it. That's not the case in comics. The general comic buying public is aware that these things are happening, and has generally accepted it. That's the difference. Even if a specific seller doesn't disclose it, most buyers are now aware of it and assume it's been done.

I'm sorry, but I just cannot agree with it. And I can't believe anyone would believe this.

Even before the blowout forums, there have been people expressing concern over a wide range of undetected work passing through PSA's nose, but it took someone who noticed an old card of there's, which had distinguishing characteristics (namely the Stan Musial card with a stain that was no longer on the card), looking different from when they owned it. That allowed a handful of members to start following Moser's trail. The culture there is also, as I've mentioned, intolerant to gaming TPG's in this manner.

IIt's no different from how the Cole Schave books were sniffed out after @namisgr spotted his old JIM #93 that we began noticing some other unusual abnormalities about the books pressed by Matt/CCS for Smelly-boy. That was so early into the in-house pressing arrangement that you could argue not even the most savvy from these forums could imagine these books being damaged by CGC's own. It was also a near 6 year difference in timeframe from when PCS had shuttered its doors because it listened to the community's concerns - and I'm still not buying that any of it is accepted.

It's been more a case of resignation. A lot of the members who took a firm stand on non-disclosure are not posting as much here. The hiccups with the forum site migration, forcing a lot of people to register new accounts, and others moving to Facebook has played a part in thinning out a lot of the community. Arguably, it could be an even split down the middle of people no longer here, either pro or anti, but there is no way anyone can convince me that the general buying public are aware of the extent of work being done on comics.

Even with the nose I've got for spotting undisclosed tampering, and the heightened awareness of how rampant it is, it never ceases to amaze me that someone posts a before and after on these boards, that leaves me wondering how brazen and ballsy people are getting these with these undisclosed alterations. If it can happen with me, you better believe there's people out there that have no clue how bad it's gotten.

Edited July 25, 2019 by comicwiz

[kimik]

1 minute ago, comicwiz said:

I'm sorry, but I just cannot agree with it. And I can't believe anyone would believe this.

Even before the blowout forums, there have been people expressing concern over a wide range of undetected work passing through PSA's nose, but it took someone who noticed an old card of there's, which had distinguishing characteristics (namely the Stan Musial card with a stain that was no longer on the card), looking different from when they owned it. That allowed a handful of members to start following Moser's trail. The culture there is also, as I've mentioned, intolerant to gaming TPG in this manner.

IIt's no different from how the Cole Schave books were spotted after @namisgr spotted his old JIM #93 that we began noticing some other unusual abnormalities about the books pressed by Matt/CCS for Smelly-boy. That was so early into the in-house pressing arrangement that you could argue not even the most savvy from these forums could imagine these books being damaged by CGC's own. It was also a near 6 year difference in timeframe from when PCS had shuttered its doors because it listened to the community's concerns - and I'm still not buying that any of it is accepted. It's been more a case of resignation. A lot of the members who took a firm stand on non-disclosure are not posting as much here. The hiccups with the forum site migration, forcing a lot of people to register new accounts, and others moving to Facebook has thinned out a lot of the community. Arguably, it could be an even split down the middle of people no longer here, either pro or anti, but there is no way anyone can convince me that the general buying public are aware of the extent of work being done on comics.

Even with the nose I've got for spotting undisclosed tampering, and the heightened awareness of how rampant it is, it never ceases to amaze me that someone posts a before and after on these boards, that leaves me wondering how brazen and ballsy people are getting these these undisclosed alterations. If it can happen with me, you better believe there's people out there that have no clue how bad it's gotten.

Last year at the Calgary Expo there was a BC based seller that had a bunch of nice GA books that he was not disclosing resto on (the light color touch with a crayon was tough to spot unless you know what to look for). Supposedly he claimed that he was unaware of it, but when all of the books that I saw were restored, it was evident that he either did it himself or bought them restored. Regardless, there was a feeding frenzy for the books as most of the people that purchased them were unaware and paid full unrestored value. 

[pickycollector]

Is this the new pressing thread? 

[THE_BEYONDER]

1 hour ago, pickycollector said:

Is this the new pressing thread? 

Kinda

[joeypost]

59 minutes ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

Kinda

If you guys would like...we could ask the moderators to create the “purists” sub-forum for you. Then you wouldn’t have to exist side by side with us knuckle draggers. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

1 minute ago, joeypost said:

If you guys would like...we could ask the moderators to create the “purists” sub-forum for you. Then you wouldn’t have to exist side by side with us knuckle draggers. 

I like mingling with the riff-raff.

 

But  I appreciate the offer 

[ADAMANTIUM]

7 minutes ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

9 minutes ago, joeypost said:

If you guys would like...we could ask the moderators to create the “purists” sub-forum for you. Then you wouldn’t have to exist side by side with us knuckle draggers. 

I like mingling with the riff-raff.

 

But  I appreciate the offer 

We're stuck together like birds of a feather 

Lol 

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by ADAMANTIUM

[Gonzimodo]

18 hours ago, VintageComics said:

Hey, we finally agree on something!

I stuck tape to a high grade ASM #129 while having a gin and tonic 17 years ago and tore the cover. I dropped an ultra high grade Avengers #4 IN A SCANNER once.

It's truly a shame but it happens.

I have a nice tape tear on my (then high-grade) Special Marvel Edition 15 from last year when I was transferring my higher-value books into Mylars.  As I was taking it out, the flap came down, and the tape stuck to the front of the comic.  Normally, you can just peel it back off without any problems, but this time it just tore a chunk out of the gloss and ink below.  (It looks like one of those hideous color touch removals I've seen.  )  I was... not exactly happy about it at the time, and naturally, that book then exploded in value.  

Now I know to remove the tape completely from the bag before removing the comic.   Me am smart.

Are there any dedicated "horror story" threads out there with similar tales of woe?

[kav]

4 minutes ago, Scott W. said:

Are there any dedicated "horror story" threads out there with similar tales of woe?

When I first started selling on ebay I listed my ASM 50.  Then, I did a tape pull and had to take new pics.  

[VintageComics]

16 hours ago, namisgr said:

19 hours ago, VintageComics said:

The problem that exists with CGC notating which books were pressed by CCS and which were not is that it can't be done consistently with books that are not pressed by CCS.

And that is also the problem with detecting pressing. Even if you guess correctly on half the books, the other half are a coin toss.

CGC is not in the business of selling coin toss opinions. People pay for an educated opinion, not a guess.

They won't declare a book as restored, or trimmed (or whatever) unless they are sure it's so.

Do you want them guessing on pressing? Nobody does. We're paying big dollars for books because we believe they are NOT guessing.

The contradictions in this stance are many.

When a book has been pressed by CCS, CGC can know with absolute certainty that the book has been pressed.  Denoting it on the label would provide certainty, and not a guess.

It's been argued that CCS would be put at a disadvantage if CGC were to denote its business on the label - the implication of this argument is that collectors as a whole would prefer unpressed comics to pressed ones.  Yet that's precisely the problem with pressing without disclosure, as the collector is being deluded rather than informed, and forced to guess, which is what you were saying shouldn't happen.  

It's circular arguing at it's finest.

It's odd that you're a scientist but would be OK with CGC guessing on pressed books.

Sure, CCS could notate which books came from CCS. But any books that did NOT come from CCS wouldn't be notated and therein lies the rub.

Do you remember when CGC removed the 3 grader's opinions from the grader's notes?

You used to be able to get the grade opinion of each grader for a given book.

So if a NM 9.4 was given 9.4/9.6/9.4 grades it was probably a strong 9.4

If it was a 9.2/9.2/9.4 it wasn't considered a strong 9.4

CGC removed the grader's opinions from the grader's notes. Why? Because when people saw those notes, all 9.4 copies were not considered equal.

It's corporate image that they were protecting.

Certification's single, lone contribution to the hobby is certainty.

So why would they mark books that were pressed by CCS if they can't detect pressing with a high degree of accuracy on the rest of the books and create a market that singles out one set of books but not the other?

I understand how you feel as a collector, but as a business person let me ask you this: Would you start a business doing something that you could only do properly, say, 50% of the time?

We have another pressing thread. Yay. Nothing has changed in 15 years except that we're a bit older.