Detective Comics 359 2 2

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, Tedsaid said:

Has that been verified, that CBCS doesn't use black light?  One guy mentioned that over at the CBCS board, but he doesn't work there.  Sounds odd to me.  (And to him.)

Let's just say that I trust what the poster on the CBCS boards says more than I trust the restoration detector to actually detect all restoration with his eyes (from across the room or otherwise)...

[comicwiz]

1 minute ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Let's just say that I trust what the poster on the CBCS boards says more than I trust the restoration detector to actually detect all restoration with his eyes (from across the room or otherwise)... 

That's just plain ignorance, and why a discussion like this is limited for people that can't wrap their heads around a persons experience trumping any of the tools you talk about. The fact you mention them even being necessary shows it.

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, comicwiz said:

That's just plain ignorance, and why a discussion like this is limited for people that can't wrap their heads around a persons experience trumping any of the tools you talk about. The fact you mention them even being necessary shows it.

When you say something as outlandish as you did, don't be surprised when the premise is reciprocated.

You basically just called yourself ignorant.

If a professional restoration detector doesn't use any and all tools available to them - then what are they even doing? That would be like me trying to communicate with a coworker without sending an email.

[comicwiz]

And if you still doubt that persons abilities, know that he was one of the people who taught the person who is supposedly CGC's restoration detection expert. In case you needed some facts to get into the way of trashing one graders "abilities" over the other.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I would bet my entire collection that said person cannot detect absolute lack of restoration from across the room.

[comicwiz]

2 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

When you say something as outlandish as you did, don't be surprised when the premise is reciprocated.

I used this example because he actually did this at a past CGC dinner. So there is that.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, comicwiz said:

I used this example because he actually did this at a past CGC dinner. So there is that.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Tedsaid]

2 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

5 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

When you say something as outlandish as you did, don't be surprised when the premise is reciprocated.

I used this example because he actually did this at a past CGC dinner. So there is that.

Whoa.  I thought that was just hyperbole, to make a point.  Sounds like a Malcolm Gladwell anecdote.  Blink anyone?

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, Tedsaid said:

Whoa.  I thought that was just hyperbole, to make a point.  Sounds like a Malcolm Gladwell anecdote.  Blink anyone?

I mean, I can detect when color touch goes wrong and an entire bottle of paint was spilled onto a cover, too.

[comicwiz]

7 minutes ago, Tedsaid said:

Whoa.  I thought that was just hyperbole, to make a point.  Sounds like a Malcolm Gladwell anecdote.  Blink anyone?

Before these boards became a coin laundry, where the dirtiest deeds got expunged by those who benefitted most from info getting scrubbed, there were others who talked about this happening, not just me. It is early times in the company history, and as unbelievable as it sounds, it happened.

Edited August 1, 2019 by comicwiz

[Buzzetta]

31 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

@Buzzetta do you remember the exact date? Otherwise, if someone can check when the resource is back up and can post a screenshot, please tag me.

Hey... 

The CBCS copy was graded first and was sold on 8/29/2018 for $10,405 LINK: http://comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?id=1268769

The CGC copy was graded on 4/16/2019 and was later sold on ComicLink at an unknown date for $869 (According to the verification system)

[comicwiz]

Thanks @Buzzetta

I don't want to seem insenstive in asking this, but a $9K+ loss is nothing to sneeze at. Given the timeline of this being graded, and a gofundme page popping-up two weeks later for the person shown on the website in the role of "resto expert" (which I want to make clear, saddened me to learn), is it possible this passed through the eyes and hands of someone who didn't have the experience to make the right call?

I know someone earlier made the remark of CBCS' restoration person needing to address this, but I believe the same should happen from CGC, if someone has filled the role in the interim.

[Tedsaid]

11 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

15 minutes ago, Tedsaid said:

Whoa.  I thought that was just hyperbole, to make a point.  Sounds like a Malcolm Gladwell anecdote.  Blink anyone?

Before these boards became a coin laundry, where the dirtiest deeds got expunged by those who benefitted most from info getting scrubbed, there were others who talked about this happening, not just me. It is early times in the company history, and as unbelievable as it sounds, it happened.

No, I believe you.  I've read Blink, I get how that works.  Just a very cool story.

[Tedsaid]

8 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

Thanks @Buzzetta

I don't want to seem insenstive in asking this, but a $9K+ loss is nothing to sneeze at. Given the timeline of this being graded, and a gofundme page popping-up two weeks later for the person shown on the website in the role of "resto expert" (which I want to make clear, saddened me to learn), is it possible this passed through the eyes and hands of someone who didn't have the experience to make the right call?

I know someone earlier made the remark of CBCS' restoration person needing to address this, but I believe the same should happen from CGC, if someone has filled the role in the interim.

GoFundMe page?  I don't know the story.  Was this a CGC person?  Are you saying this person was (potentially) affected somehow by the $9000 loss?

[Buzzetta]

2 minutes ago, comicwiz said:

Thanks @Buzzetta

I don't want to seem insenstive in asking this, but a $9K+ loss is nothing to sneeze at. Given the timeline of this being graded, and a gofundme page popping-up two weeks later for the person shown on the website in the role of "resto expert" (which I want to make clear, saddened me to learn), is it possible this passed through the eyes and hands of someone who didn't have the experience to make the right call?

I know someone earlier made the remark of CBCS' restoration person needing to address this, but I believe the same should happen from CGC, if someone has filled the role in the interim.

See that's the unknown.  

Unlike a few blind apologists on the CBCS boards I am of the belief that both companies can make mistakes but I also believe it to be the same book.  When I had an experience where CBCS missed something on a book that CGC found and that I saw on the comic, I shrugged it off and did not say anything because it was going back to a CGC holder anyway.  I figured I would cash that chip in should I ever need to if it happened on another book.  When I had an experience where CGC missed something on a different book and added a problem I knew did not exist, I raised the concern with them and it was sent in for regrading and they realized that they made a mistake and we all walked away happy.  Both companies make mistakes. 

The puzzling this is that the book was sold. 

As I noted, CLink notes that the book sold in August of 2018 in its CBCS Holder. 

I cannot track down the date yet but the book ALSO sold on CLink in its CGC holder, obviously after it was graded by CGC. 

This means that whoever bought it in the CBCS holder and had it graded by CGC has since sold it.  $9500 is nothing to sneeze at so I would love to know where the outrage is.

[comicwiz]

15 minutes ago, Tedsaid said:

GoFundMe page?  I don't know the story.  Was this a CGC person?  Are you saying this person was (potentially) affected somehow by the $9000 loss?

Paul Litch is CGC's Primary Grader and Restoration Detection expert. A Gofundme page was started for him on May 2nd, and I hope he is doing well. Given his health circumstances and the grade date of this purple label Tec 359, I'm wondering if he wasn't in the role he ordinarily would be in to detect restoration, and whether that role was filled by someone who didn't have Paul's experience or knowledge? This leads to the concern that if the latter is the case, perhaps that person who is filling the interim role saw something that wasn't really there? Which might explain the differences in opinion from one grading company to the other. Calling that black mark (whatever it might be) CT is certainly a strange clue, and if nothing else, might explain a change in opinion consistency from one grader/resto person assuming an interim role for the person previously performing that function.

Edited August 1, 2019 by comicwiz

[Tedsaid]

3 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

Unlike a few blind apologists on the CBCS boards I am of the belief that both companies can make mistakes but I also believe it to be the same book. 

I don't think anyone over there believes it is two different books.  One person pointed out some (very) plausible differences early in the discussion, and said they weren't convinced.  Then the discussion progressed, as it should, and people convinced him.  Another person still says it is inconclusive, but also the one-book-theory is the most likely.

Discussions happen.  Evidence is put forth and talked about and debated.  People here keep razzing on CBCS forum folks for a strawman argument, when in fact it would be unwise to accept ANY theory without evidence or discussion.  I think the process worked exactly as it should over there.

 

11 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

This means that whoever bought it in the CBCS holder and had it graded by CGC has since sold it.  $9500 is nothing to sneeze at so I would love to know where the outrage is.

You might not have seen it, but I talked about this over at CBCS.  I don't think he was outraged by the loss because it was due more to a bad auction that a bad grade.  There was a lot of poor judgement there.  For example, the guy WAY overpaid for a 9.2.  GPA puts that at about $7000 (though with admittedly light evidence).  He paid $10,500.  It IS a key, one that keeps going up.  So not totally crazy, but still high.  Anyway, maybe he planed to crack, press, regrade it the whole time?  That grease pencil mark, he figured, could be fixed at least?  And a bump in grade would improve the value by close to 90%.  $7000 + 90% = $13,300.  And if it comes back a 9.6?  That would be a whole lot more. 

But now it comes back with "Slight" restoration.  A 9.4, sure, but restored label.  Damn.  Cut the value in half, it's only worth $6500.  Okay, well, put it up for auction and just cut the losses.

THEN ... it doesn't even break $1000 at auction.  !  That totally sucks.  But it's not CGC's fault, or really CBCS's.  Or it's one of them, but who knows which one.  And it's not even his comic anymore.  Who to complain to?  Can't have a do-over.  Can't send the comic in for a regrade.  Just bad judgement and bad luck all around.

[comicwiz]

10 minutes ago, Tedsaid said:

But it's not CGC's fault, or really CBCS's.  Or it's one of them, but who knows which one.  And it's not even his comic anymore.  Who to complain to?  Can't have a do-over.  Can't send the comic in for a regrade.  Just bad judgement and bad luck all around.

I'm not sure I would put it that way. It's a paid opinion, and one of the two got it really wrong. To the point where financial impairment of one, to benefit another needs to place responsibility on the grader that messed it up. Spider-Dan's JIM 83 stands to be the best example of how this situation should be handled, even though initially CGC gave him pushback on addressing it, and they only rolled-up their sleeves when the situation went public. He bought it unrestored, got it CPR'd, and came back a purple label. Sold it, the person who bought it purple label resubbed and it came back a blue label. CGC needed to make that situation right.

Is it known where this Tec 359 is? I'd love to know its whearabouts and what grade it has now.

[Krismusic]

13 hours ago, NewWorldOrder said:

You mean like this scum bag:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-Vol-1-Beautiful-High-Grade-1st-Wolverine-With-Marvel-Stamp-/401767980795?hash=item5d8b3cdefb%3Ag%3AZO4AAOSwEZtc3Orq&LH_Auction=1&nma=true&si=RWvlZSJ6AlXqKMcoQMOSG4eTpmg%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

@Buzzetta @NewWorldOrder

I knew this seller before and bought a book off him a while back and his older listings didn't have restoration stated in them before. I believe a few people called him out about it maybe even on this forum and now he discloses it so he has corrected his selling habits. 

[Buzzetta]

38 minutes ago, Tedsaid said:

I don't think anyone over there believes it is two different books.  One person pointed out some (very) plausible differences early in the discussion, and said they weren't convinced.  Then the discussion progressed, as it should, and people convinced him.  Another person still says it is inconclusive, but also the one-book-theory is the most likely.

I should have said CBCS Facebook Group.  

I sacrificed brain cells by even reading some of their comments and screenshotting them for here.