Disney+'s SHE-HULK show (TBD) 5 5

[Jaydogrules]

Unfortunately this show , like many others recently of a certain ilk,  attempted to excuse its bottom feeding writing and overall "quality" by blaming the viewers/fans for not liking it and literally turning them (and kevin feige, ie, "the man") into the villain in the end.  

And they're actually talking about a season 2? 

If they're not replacing the cadre of vapid, unqualified, juvenile neurotics at every level of this failed, misguided production, don't bother. 

-J.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Jaydogrules

[FrontStands]

I think I liked the blacking out scenes in Moon Knight more than this..

Edited October 14, 2022 by FrontStands

[TupennyConan]

On 10/13/2022 at 8:55 PM, jsilverjanet said:

Lame

I liked it but now that the MCU has descended into camp, there's going to be a challenge climbing back out.

We'll see.

On to BP2. It looks deadly serious -  gloomy - even with little buzzing ankle wings.

[Bosco685]

[skypinkblu]

I was not crazy about the first 6 episodes, but I really enjoyed #7 and 8, so I was looking forward to this last one.

After watching it, I liked the 1st 6 episodes a little better, because I REALLY did not enjoy the last one.

All I kept thinking was that Mel Brooks did it a lot better in Blazing Saddles and that this was a rip off...that K.E.V.I.N reminded me of  "H.A.L" from 2001 and that having that nerdy date as the head of the Intelligencia (SP) was a no brainer and boring.

I absolutely loved the Actress in Ophan Black, but I think she was miscast here...or the writers didn't use her talents well.

I'm off to try the Werewolf show. I've never read those comics, so it will be something new.

[PovertyRow]

Now my favorite episode of one of the cleverest Marvel entries. Very creative. I really do not get many of the critiques. And people complaining about bad CGI when it was obvious it was SUPPOSED to be bad CGI? 

A fantastic way to end the season. And a really fun end credit scene.

Edited October 15, 2022 by PovertyRow

[Bosco685]

On 10/14/2022 at 10:45 AM, fmaz said:

If there’s interviews where the writers say that then that’s settled.  
That being said my only quibble with your point, and maybe it’s semantics and I’m misreading you, is that while I agree with you about overall toxic tolls being something that ruins things for everyone — but I do think that the subset of misogamy is prevalent and worthy of being a story point. So even just taking a whack at that portion of them does some good and also has at least a secondary effect of weeding out the overall number of toxicity.

What I’m (badly) attempting to say is: The storytelling rule that the most personal is the most universal comes into play here. To tell an anti-troll story you’d necessarily have to pick a lane and focus on it. And then you hope others can interpret it broadly.  Didn’t work for you so in that way it failed. Worked for me so between the two of us they’re batting .500 LOL 

I can appreciate what you are saying. It's good to have a respectable chat on the topic.

Quote

Variety: In addition to breaking the fourth wall, the finale tackles some of the exact same trolling comments that Marvel fans have been making. How did it feel to watch that happen as the show aired, knowing how the finale would turn out?

 

Tatiana Maslany: Jessica Gao is a genius and knows about the culture we’re living in and her position in it when she’s writing these stories about a woman superhero. She knows what that response is going to be. As a cast, it was delightful sending each other these troll responses, like “Oh my god, give them a week and then they’re going to literally see this pop up verbatim in the show and become the villains of the show.” It was thrilling. 

But the issue for me was they were going hard for anyone that had anything the creators felt was excessive toward female creators, actors or characters. And from the sound of it, egging them on to grab social media posts.

Quote

Variety: Were you expecting to face the trolls when you signed on for the show?

 

 Tatiana Maslany: Reading the --script, it was so true. There’s so much resistance to a woman just existing in that space of superheroes. There’s always going to be that. I sort of anticipated it. It’s why I also feel it’s important. There’s such an entitlement to space held by certain people, and to even exist as She-Hulk is like a  and I love that. 

Rather than going after general toxic fandom (like 100% of what I like - or else), it assumed anyone having issues with the show attacks women. Which then the creators can hide behind that theme concerning show element negatives are just trolls having issues with females in the industry. Even the lead actress notes that as motivating.

Yet fandom celebrates Furiosa, Wonder Woman, Ellen Ripley, Princess Leia, Sarah Connor, Tarantino's The Bride, Katniss Everdeen and much more. So it's not about WOMAN = TROLLING by default.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Bosco685

[drotto]

On 10/15/2022 at 7:26 AM, Bosco685 said:

I can appreciate what you are saying. It's good to have a respectable chat on the topic.

But the issue for me was they were going hard for anyone that had anything the creators felt was excessive toward female creators, actors or characters. And from the sound of it, egging them on to grab social media posts.

Rather than going after general toxic fandom (like 100% of what I like - or else), it assumed anyone having issues with the show attacks women. Which then the creators can hide behind that theme concerning show element negatives are just trolls having issues with females in the industry. Even the lead actress notes that as motivating.

Yet fandom celebrates Furiosa, Wonder Woman, Ellen Ripley, Princess Leia, Sarah Connor, Tarantino's The Bride, Katniss Everdeen and much more. So it's not about WOMAN = TROLLING by default.

There is no denying toxic elements exist in fandom.  There is no denying there are some pockets of ..ists and ..phobes that are part of fandom.  The problem occurs when creators apply that idea so broadly to include everyone that does not like your product must be one of those things.  That is when using these claims becomes a shield, rather than admitting that some people just honestly and without malice,  did not like you product. Brining it back to the older days of comics where there were often two general comic book fans, DC fans and Marvel Fans.  Those two groups would spend endless hours going at one another which company and universe was better.  While it often got heated even seemingly vicious, in the end it was just in good fun, and based in a general love of the products in general.

 

You can say this was an f----you to toxic fandom in general, I can see that point of view. I felt it was a bit to broad, and a bit to on the nose.  It lacked any subtly or maturity, where a more subtle approach may have been more effective. This came across as the writers venting and lashing out. more than it came across as well crafted response to those groups.

 

As for the fourth wall brake, like Skipinkblu, it reminded me of the ending of Blazing Saddles.  That movie was funny as well as a brilliant commentary on racism in America.  It remains funny and relevant even today for people that can get past the langue and some of the jokes that would not be seen as appropriate today.  While I donot mind some forth wall breaking (it is hard to do right and needs to be used minimally), the massive forth wall brake at the end of the film has always been me least favorite part of the movie.  The first time a saw it, it completely pulled me out of the film, and I hated it despite loving the rest.  I have grown to appreciate what Brooks was going for over the years, but I still do not really care for it. With She-Hulk doing basically the same thing, I still do not like it.

[Rip]

I REALLY liked 4, 7 and 8. Loved seeing Daredevil again, super fun. And I liked the new costume.

Overall the series was super off and on. But it had at least a few really solid episodes.
The humor was sometimes way funnier than I thought it would be. I would most certainly watch a second series.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Rip

[Bosco685]

 

[Pitboss]

There might not be a season 2 according to Tatiana. Can't find the article now.

 

[D84]

On 10/16/2022 at 8:02 PM, Pitboss said:

There might not be a season 2 according to Tatiana. Can't find the article now.

 

[PovertyRow]

On 10/15/2022 at 7:49 AM, drotto said:

There is no denying toxic elements exist in fandom.  There is no denying there are some pockets of ..ists and ..phobes that are part of fandom.  The problem occurs when creators apply that idea so broadly to include everyone that does not like your product must be one of those things.  That is when using these claims becomes a shield, rather than admitting that some people just honestly and without malice,  did not like you product. Brining it back to the older days of comics where there were often two general comic book fans, DC fans and Marvel Fans.  Those two groups would spend endless hours going at one another which company and universe was better.  While it often got heated even seemingly vicious, in the end it was just in good fun, and based in a general love of the products in general.

 

You can say this was an f----you to toxic fandom in general, I can see that point of view. I felt it was a bit to broad, and a bit to on the nose.  It lacked any subtly or maturity, where a more subtle approach may have been more effective. This came across as the writers venting and lashing out. more than it came across as well crafted response to those groups.

 

As for the fourth wall brake, like Skipinkblu, it reminded me of the ending of Blazing Saddles.  That movie was funny as well as a brilliant commentary on racism in America.  It remains funny and relevant even today for people that can get past the langue and some of the jokes that would not be seen as appropriate today.  While I donot mind some forth wall breaking (it is hard to do right and needs to be used minimally), the massive forth wall brake at the end of the film has always been me least favorite part of the movie.  The first time a saw it, it completely pulled me out of the film, and I hated it despite loving the rest.  I have grown to appreciate what Brooks was going for over the years, but I still do not really care for it. With She-Hulk doing basically the same thing, I still do not like it.

Very well said. I feel the same about Blazing Saddles as well, but have not yet reached your level of appreciationfor that ending. I agree with much of what you say about fandom, too. I know I have gotten some negative emojis to my comments but I fear that is partly my fault. I never mentioned I have been a long-time fan of the Sensational She-Hulk comics. They were pretty unique in the way they were so self-aware of being a comic book. The scene of Ep 10, where she breaks through the Disney+ streaming screen has actually been done in Sensational more than once where she tears through the comic panel. She has also torn through a page to get at John Byrne (aka K.E.V.I.N) over a bad plot. These things were being done in the comic 30+ years ago. She was carrying Byrne on her shoulder on the cover of 31. These scenarios were the norm for Sensational She-Hulk and it made it one of my favorite series. So now you have a better idea of where I'm coming from and why I enjoy the show so much. They pretty much nailed the comic.

Here is a panel from #31 where Jen is talking to Weezy. It could have been lifted from the tv show itself rather than a 30 year old comic. Following are other panels showing her breaking through the comic (similar to ep10), confronting Byrne (K.E.V.I.N) etc. 

(There are a slew of examples like the ones below but a few should suffice.) Note that last panel was preceded by 4 blank pages when she took on The Eraser. 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by PovertyRow

[godzilla43]

This was the worst Marvel show this far. I stopped watching the show in the middle of that wedding episode but then after some positive comments about the last episode I finished the show. Leap Frog episode was okay. Rest was bad. The show really did not have any big plot or payoff it was just random episodes with random events happening that supposed to be funny.

I liked Tatiana Maslany and She-Hulk and with some budget like in the last episode She-Hulk looked good. Sometimes She-Hulk looked like the Shrek (don't get me started on Skaar)  

Maybe it is better that there is no season two because maybe She-Hulk just cost too much. I hope Disney puts She-Hulk in some upcoming Marvel film.

[drotto]

On 10/17/2022 at 3:44 PM, PovertyRow said:

Very well said. I feel the same about Blazing Saddles as well, but have not yet reached your level of appreciationfor that ending. I agree with much of what you say about fandom, too. I know I have gotten some negative emojis to my comments but I fear that is partly my fault. I never mentioned I have been a long-time fan of the Sensational She-Hulk comics. They were pretty unique in the way they were so self-aware of being a comic book. The scene of Ep 10, where she breaks through the Disney+ streaming screen has actually been done in Sensational more than once where she tears through the comic panel. She has also torn through a page to get at John Byrne (aka K.E.V.I.N) over a bad plot. These things were being done in the comic 30+ years ago. She was carrying Byrne on her shoulder on the cover of 31. These scenarios were the norm for Sensational She-Hulk and it made it one of my favorite series. So now you have a better idea of where I'm coming from and why I enjoy the show so much. They pretty much nailed the comic.

Here is a panel from #31 where Jen is talking to Weezy. It could have been lifted from the tv show itself rather than a 30 year old comic. Following are other panels showing her breaking through the comic (similar to ep10), confronting Byrne (K.E.V.I.N) etc. 

(There are a slew of examples like the ones below but a few should suffice.) Note that last panel was preceded by 4 blank pages when she took on The Eraser. 

 

 

I also think something like this works in comics better then on TV. In comics at that time Marvel was printing dozens of books per month and it could easily be compartmentalized as its own thing.  When you have this show as the sole MCU offering for a 2 month period, and it is introducing a new character, it gets all the focus.  It is much more difficult to compartmentalize what has been done here.  I know you could make a similar argument in the comics, but how do you now integrate this character as one to be taken seriously into other Marvel projects.  This is not a side project, this is her introduction into the MCU, and is canon. She-Hulk now "knows" her world is fake, and can be changed on her whim. So how does any MCU project with her in it have any stakes? If she does not like the outcome, she  just crashes the fourth wall again, and change the ending?

 

Now this is also a potential issue with trying to integrate Deadpool into the MCU.  Part of why those movies have work so far, it is it very clear it is it's own thing.

[PovertyRow]

On 10/17/2022 at 5:52 PM, drotto said:

It is much more difficult to compartmentalize what has been done here.  I know you could make a similar argument in the comics, but how do you now integrate this character as one to be taken seriously into other Marvel projects.  This is not a side project, this is her introduction into the MCU, and is canon. She-Hulk now "knows" her world is fake, and can be changed on her whim. So how does any MCU project with her in it have any stakes? If she does not like the outcome, she  just crashes the fourth wall again, and change the ending?

I guess Marvel has abandoned The Hulk, Wong, Titania, Abomination, Daredevil, and any other guest hero/villain for simply being on the show. And Man-Thing in WWBN must have been a failure before it started by being preceded by that Lionsgate entry. 

You know, people praised the heck out of Wanda Vision but to me that was a mess and a half. The best thing about it were some of the Easter eggs. And The Scarlet Witch is one of my favorite Marvel characters.

The Jen character can be taken seriously if she appears next in a serious role. Or she could simply continue as an iteration of Sensational She-Hulk, breaking fourth walls and being herself. Deadpool seems to be doing ok for himself. Precisely HOW connected do these MCUs have to be?  When you look at the endings of the later Avengers films they were a jumble of character after character after character which actually got rather boring.

Are we slaves to some "canon" which has been retconned hundreds of times across hundreds of characters and events? What happens with the next retcon?  Will THAT destroy the MCU? I do not get how a series of 10 25-or-less minute "tv episodes" can have such a final and fatal impact on her in the MCU. The idea is preposterous. 

I thank you for your consideration in this matter. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by PovertyRow
spelling

[Bosco685]

 

[Sauce Dog]

On 10/18/2022 at 5:41 AM, Bosco685 said:

 

I could see them having done this when Jen was desperately trying to get in contact with Hulk to talk on the phone, but with no answer due to him being out in space she just says "screw it...a Hulks a Hulk" and scrolls down her contact list one more to an entry named 'Hulk (2008)' and calls him to discuss her dilemma with Abomination.

[D84]

On 10/18/2022 at 8:05 AM, Sauce Dog said:

I could see them having done this when Jen was desperately trying to get in contact with Hulk to talk on the phone, but with no answer due to him being out in space she just says "screw it...a Hulks a Hulk" and scrolls down her contact list one more to an entry named 'Hulk (2008)' and calls him to discuss her dilemma with Abomination.

That would have been funny.

[marmat]

Finally saw it till the end. 

The last episode was great, the Kevin parody was hilarious, especially when she asked him when the X-Men will be introduced. 

The show was the most comic-accurate thing Marvel did in a while. 

Off course it had some low points. 

7.0 / 10 for me