The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[OtherEric]

On 3/28/2024 at 4:30 AM, Malacoda said:

Also, seven year old me would never forgive me if I didn't mention....

 

 

You can't keep an Earthman down!  

 

 

Amusingly, this arrived in the mail for me today, ordered before you mentioned it here:

 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 3/29/2024 at 9:20 PM, OtherEric said:

Amusingly, this arrived in the mail for me today, ordered before you mentioned it here:

 

Space Willies OK.

Space Philip Ks streng verboten!

[Malacoda]

Regarding our oft-discussed number i.e. what proportion of the Marvel print run was UKPV's ( I know, I'm back on topic, and Steve isn't even here), in 1973, with the impending hiatus looming, Rob Barrow seems very certain that the figure was 6%.  Not only does he publish that number with the status of a fact, but he encourages everyone to harangue Stan directly, quoting that figure.  It seems to me that Rob was a guy who knew his onions and I find 6% a believable number (there's something about the slight randomness of it...) 

[themagicrobot]

 

Yes https://www.comicsfanzines.co.uk/ is the sort of place we visit when others are on dating sites/UToob/social media. I hope someone will let me know when Comics Unlimited 54 (presumably a one-off now everything is accessed via the Interweb) appears. In the meantime I too was looking at some old issues online this week. Actually the site is missing quite a few which I probably own. 

In FU19 dated May/June 1974 someone asks Alan about a gap in Marvel distribution. Alan says "World Distributor's contract ran out and another company competed for the distribution rights. WD won and start again with August 1974 cover dates". This seems odd to me. Why would WD be so haphazard as to let contracts expire?

In FU27 dated June 1975 there is this mention yet again about "ballast" which probably was a (very small) thing. I have mentioned before visiting a (Camden?) market stall around that time. They had hundreds of water stained Marvels, and flicking through them they were all the same three or four issues.

 

 

 

Edited March 30 by themagicrobot

[Malacoda]

On 3/30/2024 at 9:12 AM, themagicrobot said:

Actually the site is missing quite a few which I probably own. 

You don't happen to have any of Paul Gravett's Fandom Digest's do you? 

[themagicrobot]

Sorry no. I tended not to save old price lists. They would depress me today I think. Just read another FU where someone asks Alan how much a 1952 Superman would be worth. The reply was ..................................£2..........................(but we are talking about 1974.

And perhaps most of the more popular Fanzines have been scanned. These three certainly have. Not sure about the one the alien is reading though.

 

 

PS: Paul did Escape magazine which I purchased. Did I ever share this article Alan Moore wrote in Escape? I doubt it has ever been reprinted.  https://app.box.com/shared/mhl4jil0jm

Edited March 30 by themagicrobot

[Malacoda]

On 3/30/2024 at 4:32 PM, themagicrobot said:

Sorry no. I tended not to save old price lists.

If you come across them in any format, please grab.  The joy of his catalogues was that he separated out ND from the rest, so they're a compete statement of everything that was (or, perhaps more interestingly, was thought to be) ND at the time. 

[Malacoda]

On 3/30/2024 at 4:32 PM, themagicrobot said:

PS: Paul did Escape magazine which I purchased. Did I ever share this article Alan Moore wrote in Escape? I doubt it has ever been reprinted. https://app.box.com/file/289380578

It appears one needs to buy a subscription to Box (and be a company, though I suppose one can put anything there).  Any chance you have this as a scan? 

[themagicrobot]

Anyone with the right links should be able to visit my Box stuff. There is 9GB of goodness in there. Sorry I have changed the link. Forgot to tick a box in Box. 

PS: Someone in the US is selling a back cover of a Fantastic comic for $28.79 claiming it is a print produced by Marvel UK on "heavy stock". Dunno about that! He says:-

Offered here is a Vintage POWER PIN-UP Print featuring PEPPER POTTS. These awesome pin-ups were only available in Europe and distributed thru Marvel / UK originally released in 1960's on the back covers of the Marvel magazines.  These were purchased from a UK collector as original prints but we have yet to find info to back it up. These are likely later releases in the UK, they are copyrighted but there is no date on them to actually determine when they were released but they have never been released in the US. The print is in great condition, quality printing on heavy stock, and are 10" x 14"

Edited March 30 by themagicrobot

[Malacoda]

On 3/30/2024 at 9:12 AM, themagicrobot said:

In FU19 dated May/June 1974 someone asks Alan about a gap in Marvel distribution. Alan says "World Distributor's contract ran out and another company competed for the distribution rights. WD won and start again with August 1974 cover dates". This seems odd to me. Why would WD be so haphazard as to let contacts expire?

Hmmm.  It seems odd as the handover from T&P to World was seamless.  Why would they, or indeed Marvel, leave the contract so long it completely expired and then have to re-start everything again (container shipping, manifests, bank transfers etc).  That said, it did fall over for 2 months in 1981, although the contract with Comag seems to be a really different kettle of fish to the one World got.  

Also, their contract seems to have started from cover date August 1971. Why would it expire in March 1974?  

Given the scale of the paper shortage generally and its impact on comics in particular, it seems the more likely candidate  DC cancelled 4 titles specifically because of the paper shortage (Supergirl, Secret Origins, Superman's Girl Friend & Weird Worlds), lots of British comics weren't printed and questions were being asked in Parliament about the rationing of school exercise books. It seems the stronger contender.  Alan might well be right that the contract was renegotiated - they reappeared with the UK specific banner when they came back - but as to whether that caused the hiatus, I'm unconvinced. 

Fascinating to read though, thank you. 

[Yorick]

On 3/30/2024 at 10:45 AM, themagicrobot said:

but we have yet to find info to back it up

I don't like the look of it as "an original".  The dot matrix lines on her legs appear to me as an artifact of a printed scan.

[themagicrobot]

Yes on second thoughts perhaps someone did copy a stack of back covers. Photocopiers are pretty good these days. But anyone could scan an image for nothing. Why pay $28. Here are Fantastic back page, the original pinup and the print.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30 by themagicrobot

[Albert Tatlock]

On 1/28/2024 at 10:52 PM, Malacoda said:

Indeed. He was the last person ever prosecuted under the Obscene Publications Act. Perhaps more impressively, he was also the first person to have been prosecuted under it for 25 years.  I imagine barristers were queuing up to get that one. 

In fact, prosecutions continued under the 1959 Obscene Publications Act The Britton case was a landmark as it was the last time that a book had been banned outright.

Below is an ad from a magazine of the time:

£1.25 seems cheap when compared to this offering from a US bookdealer (admittedly a dedicated copy):

https://www.jamescumminsbookseller.com/pages/books/315469/david-britton/lord-horror

According to the House Of Lords Library here:

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/LLN-2019-0103/LLN-2019-0103.pdf

The Children and Young Persons (Harmful Publications) Act 1955 banned comics that children were likely to read that contained acts of violence or cruelty, the commission of crimes, or incidents of repulsive or horrible nature. However, in seven years, the Home Office only received twelve complaints against comics, five of which the Attorney General refused to act on,

Talk about a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

 

 

Edited March 30 by Albert Tatlock
correct typo

[Albert Tatlock]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:45 PM, themagicrobot said:

Anyone with the right links should be able to visit my Box stuff. There is 9GB of goodness in there. Sorry I have changed the link. Forgot to tick a box in Box. 

PS: Someone in the US is selling a back cover of a Fantastic comic for $28.79 claiming it is a print produced by Marvel UK on "heavy stock". Dunno about that! He says:-

Offered here is a Vintage POWER PIN-UP Print featuring PEPPER POTTS. These awesome pin-ups were only available in Europe and distributed thru Marvel / UK originally released in 1960's on the back covers of the Marvel magazines.  These were purchased from a UK collector as original prints but we have yet to find info to back it up. These are likely later releases in the UK, they are copyrighted but there is no date on them to actually determine when they were released but they have never been released in the US. The print is in great condition, quality printing on heavy stock, and are 10" x 14"

According, some say, to PT Barnum: 'There's one born every minute'.

And according, some say to WC Fields: 'Never give a sucker an even break'.

Don't touch this with a barge pole.

[baggsey]

On 3/30/2024 at 4:12 AM, themagicrobot said:

 

Yes https://www.comicsfanzines.co.uk/ is the sort of place we visit when others are on dating sites/UToob/social media. I hope someone will let me know when Comics Unlimited 54 (presumably a one-off now everything is accessed via the Interweb) appears. In the meantime I too was looking at some old issues online this week. Actually the site is missing quite a few which I probably own.

Well, @themagicrobot, work is well underway on Comics Unlimited #54. It will be a print-only edition, available via Amazon at cost (it's a non-profit exercise). It is intended as a one-off memorial issue. My pal Nigel Brown will explain the background to it in the editorial. We've managed to identify a lot of the old contributors who have graciously contributed to the contents. I'll post an update over on the SuperStuff blog soon, which we'll pass on to John Freeman at Down The Tubes as well.

Re the Fantasy Unlimited and Comics Unlimited scans over on Dave Hathway-Price's site....I believe that he has the vast majority of the issues scanned, but cleaning up the pages digitally is a time-consuming chore without a doubt. His site is a fabulous resource ; if there was a way that Google could index the contents, it would be even more valuable.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 3/30/2024 at 5:57 PM, Yorick said:

I don't like the look of it as "an original".  The dot matrix lines on her legs appear to me as an artifact of a printed scan.

There are different versions of this being offered by US based sellers.

Some are described as officially licensed, with a line of type confirming this at bottom, some not.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 3/30/2024 at 9:01 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

There are different versions of this being offered by US based sellers.

Some are described as officially licensed, with a line of type confirming this at bottom, some not.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394706416220?itmmeta=01HT8JQHVJPENB0499J7SEV5KE&hash=item5be655f25c:g:YwEAAOSw1Vpkm3z-&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4MQuIDDBk5ve%2BEKUaAZ7PSqZZDNzK9u3Lgn8LzEPMDKRhLBh2gkTb1cw91e6LGpmAHFAqMAE8jW0B37kz4bV3lHs7EwV4kky0wMg9qVtqPS4tJWeBec00D3jiIcZlyC86K5J07ex2Sxkcd%2B7wsD7PraaS3%2Fum4zNuDO8A0dxhQE%2FIKbd%2BtQl9qgck68ofIlCcm5lurFR4459YujMOFspMF08om13z96YdIvHbYefH2HS2zaowuIX9deA9f6h9fWKp6kso1Q9JJrytMCG5p1WuEPOgbOa5hJ1Ji%2Fq1H8BNgz6|tkp%3ABFBM8p3ektJj

Someone is clearly trying it on.

[Malacoda]

On 3/30/2024 at 4:32 PM, themagicrobot said:

Sorry no. I tended not to save old price lists.

In fairness to Paul, whilst it was indeed primarily a mail order catalogue, it also had articles. Paul Gravett introduced me to the Prisoner.  There was not only an article, but a fold out poster, which I still have. 

[themagicrobot]

@Albert Tatlock Gotta love some of the eBay sellers across the pond. He claims that issue of Fantastic 71 is rare because the CGC haven't encapsulated any compared to the original Marvel comics. When I was completing my run, not only were rear covers often missing, if the covers were intact the comic would have an address written on the front of back just like this one does. In the 1960s so many comics were delivered by newsagents in the UK along with the morning paper. By the time I was 14 I had managed to get five different weekly UK titles delivered. That was because my father paid the paper bill. I needed all my cash for the spinner rack. Incidentally I had a morning paper round and there was a reason UK comics weren't all released on the same day. I would be delivering the Dandy on Tuesdays. The Beano on Thursdays etc. It spread the load out.

I pleaded with my friendly neighbourhood newsagent not to write our address on my precious comics to no avail. There was a constant turnover of boys (seldom girls) who soon tired of getting up at 6am in all weathers to walk the streets. It was almost as bad as climbing chimneys. I however had a work ethic and delivered Sunday papers too as there was no other way of feeding my habit of DCs.

PS: If @Malacoda is right about Marvel UKPVs actually accounting for 6% of production ( not the between 5% and 10% I've seen quoted elsewhere) then in the 1960s when 250,000 copies of X-Men were published that means we received around 15,000 to cover the whole country. If there are approx 40 counties in the UK that means each COUNTY (not town or city ?!?) would have received less than 400 copies of X-Men. 

Edited March 31 by themagicrobot

[Malacoda]

On 3/31/2024 at 9:54 AM, themagicrobot said:

PS: If @Malacoda is right about Marvel UKPVs actually accounting for 6% of production ( not the between 5% and 10% I've seen quoted elsewhere) then in the 1960s when 250,000 copies of X-Men were published that means we received around 15,000 to cover the whole country. If there are approx 40 counties in the UK that means each COUNTY (not town or city ?!?) would have received less than 400 copies of X-Men. 

This is a fair point, but even if we go with 10% which is far and away the highest number I've seen quoted, that would still only be 625 copies over 40 counties, which still seems impossibly low so I don't think 6% is rendered unlikely by that consideration. 

I'm not clear what you mean by 40 counties?  There's multiple ways to count the counties, but however you do it there's a lot more that 40.  This, of course, just reinforces your point.  

I think T&P were pretty Midlands centric and what supply you got depended on where you lived.  As far as I can see, Scotland was virtually not supplied at all, nor Northern Ireland.  Wales was well supplied in the south, less so in the North, and so on, though the big exception to this, as per everyone's memories (and surviving copies do seem to back this up), was that seaside / holiday areas were better supplied. This makes perfect sense. Looking at where they had reps and depots (which is, of course, pretty anecdotal without an actual list) it was geographically very unequal.  Some reps seem to have covered massive but less populated areas.   London seems to have had just one covering 250 accounts (no idea how many newsagents made up an account.  Most were sole traders, I assume, but there were also chains like NSS).   Liverpool / Manchester and more southerly parts of the North seem to be extremely well served, but the further north you get, the more spaced out it gets. 

But you're right, however you slice it, the numbers seem really small. 

Looking at ebay (never a good way to start a sentence) is interesting.  Obviously, the numbers of a particular comic for sale on ebay at any particular moment are not a good barometer for how many there were to start with because you don't know what the survival rates were or how many are sitting in people's collections and will never be sold until they die <ahem>  but people have been selling comics on ebay for 25 years so it is an extremely mature marketplace. I think you can say that if a comic never turns up on ebay, you're going to struggle to find it elsewhere.  

If you look at the far end of the 60's - when T&P were selling both PV's and stamped cents copies, which I take to be peak Marvel distribution for them,  if you look at the numbers available on ebay, you only find single digit volumes of most issues.  Very few have 10+ and I guarantee you will never find 20 copies of any issue.  

We have no idea of the survival rate, but we can assume that any unstamped cents copies were brought in by dealers / collectors and not sold on the spinner rack. We can further assume that anything with a PV or T&P stamp WAS sold on the spinner rack.  If, at any given time, there are only 5 copies of a comic for sale on ebay, does that seem to contradict the idea that there were only a few hundred to start with?  I don't think it does.  Likewise, I kind of imagine that, taking a long term view, the numbers for sale are actually even smaller than they seem because in many cases they're the same copies being resold every few years while the ones in the hands of True Believers are frozen in collections like Cap in the ice.  

Just to be clear, whilst I'm countering some of your points, I am fully agreeing with your key statement that based on the stated printed runs x whichever % you choose as being PV's, the amount of comics you get, spread over the area that T&P serviced, is startlingly low. 

That said, given that they were also distributing Archie, Charlton, Dell, Gold Key, King and presumably whacking quantities of DC, maybe it's not that startling.  How many comics can you physically fit onto a spinner rack? 

This is where you guys, who were around at the time, take over.