Combined investment will cause Golden Age (Collectors) to explode 3 3

[valiantman]

Since we're past the 25th page of this topic, a year later, I'll go ahead and pour salt in the wounds.

Here's how I see the world  (and I'm absolutely sure that few, if any, other people think of the world like this)

EVERYTHING IS FRACTIONS

In real estate, I don't own a city.  I don't own a neighborhood.  I own a tiny fraction on one side of a street, and my address claims a city and state for which I own a fraction very close to zero.

In the stock market, I don't own a company.  I don't own controlling interest in a company.  I own tiny fractions of companies I'll never even visit to see their business in person, and those fractions are very close to zero.

In cryptocurrency, I don't own a bitcoin.  I own a fraction of a bitcoin, and if I want, I can even sell a fraction of my fraction.  This is possible 24/7, electronically, with instant buying/selling.

 

In comic books, I don't own the first appearance of characters.  I own a fraction of the existing copies of those first appearances.

I have a copy of Daredevil #1 (1964), but there are at least 5,000 of them.  The first appearance of Daredevil is something I decided to collect, but I don't own them all.  I own a fraction.  One copy out of 5,000+.

I also collect the first appearances of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, X-Men, Wolverine, Silver Surfer, Supergirl, Brainiac, Invincible, Bone, Deadpool, Venom, etc.

I don't own all the existing copies of any of these books.  I own a fraction of the first appearance, normally one copy, maybe two. 

Since there are only 3,000 copies of TMNT #1 first print, I own at least 0.03% of the global supply of the first appearance of TMNT.

There are currently only 1,044 CGC graded copies of TMNT #1 first print, so I own 0.095% of the CGC graded first appearance of TMNT.

It's all fractions.  I own a CGC graded Hulk #181, so I only own 0.0068% of the first appearance of Wolverine.

I purchase these books, scan them, and store them for decades at a time.  If I want to see them, I look at a scan.

 

I own multiple copies of the reprints of the first appearance of Superman, but 0% of the real thing.  

If I owned 0.01% of the first appearance of Superman, it would be a bigger fraction than my ownership in the first appearance of Wolverine.

I need a way to keep collecting fractions of first appearances, and important comic events, and exciting artwork, and sportscards, and first edition novels, and exotic cars.

Currently, the requirement to "round up" my fractions to exactly one whole item (which is still something like 0.0068%) and to take on the responsibility of securing and insuring those items is limiting.

I see a world where we can all keep collecting our fractions.  Where someone else can handle the security and insurance.   Where I can sell 1/2 of my fraction and keep the other half.  Where I can double my fraction anytime.

I can already do this for real estate, for stocks, for cryptocurrency...

But I also collect first appearances, and I want my fractions.

Edited September 2, 2021 by valiantman
no longer on the 25th page

[valiantman]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:26 AM, MrBedrock said:

On 9/2/2021 at 10:04 AM, valiantman said:

But that's not your main business, right?  Don't you actually make your money selling 2,000 copies of freshly-printed Biclops each week?

Buy the book by the page. It's a new investment scheme we cooked up to bilk readers out of their hard-earned dough. I knew you would like it.

I'm not sure if that's a joke, but CGC slabs individual pages of key issues... splitting them up and scattering them across the planet forever.  I'd rather own a fraction equivalent to a whole page, but keep the book together.

[MrBedrock]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:28 AM, valiantman said:

I'm not sure if that's a joke, but CGC slabs individual pages of key issues... splitting them up and scattering them across the planet forever.  I'd rather own a fraction equivalent to a whole page, but keep the book together.

Why wait until they are old? We plan on doing this to new comics. Divide up a new comic, mark up each part, then make folks pay separately for each page. We are thinking of added an expiring digital option where folks won't even have anything to show for their money. When used correctly by vultures ain't technology grand?

[valiantman]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:38 AM, MrBedrock said:

On 9/2/2021 at 10:28 AM, valiantman said:

I'm not sure if that's a joke, but CGC slabs individual pages of key issues... splitting them up and scattering them across the planet forever.  I'd rather own a fraction equivalent to a whole page, but keep the book together.

Why wait until they are old? We plan on doing this to new comics. Divide up a new comic, mark up each part, then make folks pay separately for each page. We are thinking of added an expiring digital option where folks won't even have anything to show for their money. When used correctly by vultures ain't technology grand?

You're still describing the current comics market.  It's not individual pages, but it's decompressed stories.  Why wait until the stories are in graphic novels?  Split up the single stories into 4 to 8 parts, sell them for $4.99 each, and make $20 to $40 instead of letting the buyer have the whole story in a graphic novel for $14.99.  People aren't paying separately for each page, but you can get them to buy all the parts to one story for a lot more money than selling them the graphic novel.  If they'll buy digital, we don't even need paper.  Just one Biclops story, double the profits.  Slap a variant cover on each of the 4 to 8 parts, double the money again.

This IS the comic industry now.

Edited September 2, 2021 by valiantman

[MrBedrock]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:41 AM, valiantman said:

You're still describing the current comics market.  It's not individual pages, but it's decompressed stories.  Why wait until the stories are in graphic novels?  Split up the single stories into 4 to 8 parts, sell them for $4.99 each, and make $20 to $40 instead of letting the buyer have the whole story in a graphic novel for $14.99.  People aren't paying separately for each page, but you can get them to buy all the parts to one story for a lot more money than selling them the graphic novel.

This IS the comic industry now.

Wow. You think up all the best schemes. In your opinion, what is the best way to steal old folk's retirement money?

[valiantman]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:44 AM, MrBedrock said:

Wow. You think up all the best schemes. In your opinion, what is the best way to steal old folk's retirement money?

Legally?  Run a nursing home.

Edited September 2, 2021 by valiantman

[Flex Mentallo]

On 9/2/2021 at 4:45 PM, valiantman said:

Legally?  Run a nursing home.

Then burn it to the ground and claim on the insurance.

[MrBedrock]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:45 AM, valiantman said:

Legally?  Run a nursing home.

I knew you would be the person to ask. 

[valiantman]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:53 AM, Flex Mentallo said:

On 9/2/2021 at 10:45 AM, valiantman said:

Legally?  Run a nursing home.

Then burn it to the ground and claim on the insurance.

It's more lucrative (and legal) to just keep running the nursing home.  My grandfather provided very well for my grandmother.  When she needed to go to a nursing home, the nursing home took every dollar... legally.  This was 20 years ago, and they legally charged $5,000 per month. The nursing home was probably making $500,000 per month. Getting back on topic, I could probably afford Action Comics #1 outright if my grandfather's money had been protected from the nursing home.  Instead, I'm scrapping for a system that will let me own a fraction.

Edited September 2, 2021 by valiantman

[Buzzetta]

On 9/2/2021 at 11:44 AM, MrBedrock said:

Wow. You think up all the best schemes. In your opinion, what is the best way to steal old folk's retirement money?

There are many of us that have laid out to him 'most' of the avenues of fraud that can be and are likely being taken with fractional ownership of 'collectables'.   You are beating your head against the wall.   

[Flex Mentallo]

On 9/2/2021 at 5:06 PM, valiantman said:

It's more lucrative (and legal) to just keep running the nursing home.  My grandfather provided very well for my grandmother.  When she needed to go to a nursing home, the nursing home took every dollar... legally.  This was 20 years ago, and they legally charged $5,000 per month. The nursing home was probably making $500,000 per month. Getting back on topic, I could probably afford Action Comics #1 outright if my grandfather's money had been protected from the nursing home.  Instead, I'm scrapping for a system that will let me own a fraction.

Do nursing homes accept payment in derivatives?

[waaaghboss]

What makes this tricky to even talk about is you seem to keep changing your sales pitch.   

 

"It's an investment!"

"No, it's a layaway plan" 

"Wait, it's how you can own a piece of a first appearance"

"No it's an investment again!"

 

If you just pushed the financial investment angle and dropped the collectible pitch, I think you'd actually have a defensible argument.  Not a good investment imo, but a decent argument.  

[batman_fan]

Is it too early to talk about Obadiah Oldbuck and why it should be more valuable than Action 1?

[Kryptic1]

Here's my experience with Rally.  I first learned about them through the thread in the General forum, and I really liked the idea of fractional investing, but I thought Rally's approach added too many expenses that would ultimately have to come out of investor returns.  I didn't plan to invest, but I watched as most of the comics were dropping in their secondary trading windows, and figured that the discount that I was getting to market value would offset those costs.  I deposited my money and started to buy up any comics that had fallen well under FMV.  I was watching the same comics climb higher and higher at auction, but on Rally they kept dropping.  In the Rally threads on Twitter, people were declaring "comics are dead!" because all they knew about the market was what they saw on Rally.  I kept buying, assuming that people would eventually catch on and bid the books back up to FMV.

Then the buyout offers started to come in.  When I joined Rally, I wasn't too concerned about the lack of control over the timing of the sale.  I assumed most shareholders would make rational decisions and since Rally makes the final decision on buyouts they could overrule the shareholders if necessary.  I couldn't have been more wrong.  The first offer was for Amazing Fantasy 15 in CGC 8.0 at $240k.  Days earlier, a copy in the same grade had sold on the Comiclink Exchange for $300k.  I reached out to Rally and asked why they would even consider such a low offer.  They responded that they would present all "qualified" offers to shareholders.  I also offered to buy up all shares from those who wanted to accept the offer so that anyone who wanted to stay in long-term could do so, but I got no response.  The offer was approved by over 80% of shareholders.  Rally had bought the book for $189k and it was worth $300k at the time of the sale.  That market had risen by 59%, but if you had invested at the IPO price, the combination of accepting a lowball offer and all of the expenses added by Rally had whittled your return down to 15% pretax.

So far, six of the nine books that I invested in have been bought out, all well below market prices.  Since I was buying during the trading windows below the IPO price my returns have been very good, but at the expense of the opportunity for future gains.  Most of the books worth investing in are gone, and they have been replaced by high population bronze age keys bought at the top of the market, like Giant Size X-Men #1 in CGC 9.8 for $64k or Amazing Spiderman 129 in CGC 9.8 for $40k.  The market value for the new books are down 30-40% from where Rally bought them, but Rally investors, convinced that "comics are hot!!!!" by all of the buyouts, are buying everything in sight.  I've been withdrawing my money since there isn't much left worth buying.

I don't regret using Rally, and I'm not concerned that it's all a scam.  My withdrawals have been processed quickly, and I just don't think they've put in all of this work over the last few years to run a smash & grab job on customer deposits.  Just understand if you buy in that your fellow shareholders and Rally know nothing about comics, and you are at their mercy when decisions are made.

[Flex Mentallo]

On 9/2/2021 at 6:36 PM, batman_fan said:

Is it too early to talk about Obadiah Oldbuck and why it should be more valuable than Action 1?

Not again!!!

[MrBedrock]

On 9/2/2021 at 12:37 PM, Kryptic1 said:

Here's my experience with Rally.  I first learned about them through the thread in the General forum, and I really liked the idea of fractional investing, but I thought Rally's approach added too many expenses that would ultimately have to come out of investor returns.  I didn't plan to invest, but I watched as most of the comics were dropping in their secondary trading windows, and figured that the discount that I was getting to market value would offset those costs.  I deposited my money and started to buy up any comics that had fallen well under FMV.  I was watching the same comics climb higher and higher at auction, but on Rally they kept dropping.  In the Rally threads on Twitter, people were declaring "comics are dead!" because all they knew about the market was what they saw on Rally.  I kept buying, assuming that people would eventually catch on and bid the books back up to FMV.

Then the buyout offers started to come in.  When I joined Rally, I wasn't too concerned about the lack of control over the timing of the sale.  I assumed most shareholders would make rational decisions and since Rally makes the final decision on buyouts they could overrule the shareholders if necessary.  I couldn't have been more wrong.  The first offer was for Amazing Fantasy 15 in CGC 8.0 at $240k.  Days earlier, a copy in the same grade had sold on the Comiclink Exchange for $300k.  I reached out to Rally and asked why they would even consider such a low offer.  They responded that they would present all "qualified" offers to shareholders.  I also offered to buy up all shares from those who wanted to accept the offer so that anyone who wanted to stay in long-term could do so, but I got no response.  The offer was approved by over 80% of shareholders.  Rally had bought the book for $189k and it was worth $300k at the time of the sale.  That market had risen by 59%, but if you had invested at the IPO price, the combination of accepting a lowball offer and all of the expenses added by Rally had whittled your return down to 15% pretax.

So far, six of the nine books that I invested in have been bought out, all well below market prices.  Since I was buying during the trading windows below the IPO price my returns have been very good, but at the expense of the opportunity for future gains.  Most of the books worth investing in are gone, and they have been replaced by high population bronze age keys bought at the top of the market, like Giant Size X-Men #1 in CGC 9.8 for $64k or Amazing Spiderman 129 in CGC 9.8 for $40k.  The market value for the new books are down 30-40% from where Rally bought them, but Rally investors, convinced that "comics are hot!!!!" by all of the buyouts, are buying everything in sight.  I've been withdrawing my money since there isn't much left worth buying.

I don't regret using Rally, and I'm not concerned that it's all a scam.  My withdrawals have been processed quickly, and I just don't think they've put in all of this work over the last few years to run a smash & grab job on customer deposits.  Just understand if you buy in that your fellow shareholders and Rally know nothing about comics, and you are at their mercy when decisions are made.

Thanks for your insight.

Now the fun begins. Let's sit back and enjoy the show as Valiantman picks and chooses the pieces of your post that best fit his argument.

[revat]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:37 AM, Kryptic1 said:

Here's my experience with Rally.  I first learned about them through the thread in the General forum, and I really liked the idea of fractional investing, but I thought Rally's approach added too many expenses that would ultimately have to come out of investor returns.  I didn't plan to invest, but I watched as most of the comics were dropping in their secondary trading windows, and figured that the discount that I was getting to market value would offset those costs.  I deposited my money and started to buy up any comics that had fallen well under FMV.  I was watching the same comics climb higher and higher at auction, but on Rally they kept dropping.  In the Rally threads on Twitter, people were declaring "comics are dead!" because all they knew about the market was what they saw on Rally.  I kept buying, assuming that people would eventually catch on and bid the books back up to FMV.

Then the buyout offers started to come in.  When I joined Rally, I wasn't too concerned about the lack of control over the timing of the sale.  I assumed most shareholders would make rational decisions and since Rally makes the final decision on buyouts they could overrule the shareholders if necessary.  I couldn't have been more wrong.  The first offer was for Amazing Fantasy 15 in CGC 8.0 at $240k.  Days earlier, a copy in the same grade had sold on the Comiclink Exchange for $300k.  I reached out to Rally and asked why they would even consider such a low offer.  They responded that they would present all "qualified" offers to shareholders.  I also offered to buy up all shares from those who wanted to accept the offer so that anyone who wanted to stay in long-term could do so, but I got no response.  The offer was approved by over 80% of shareholders.  Rally had bought the book for $189k and it was worth $300k at the time of the sale.  That market had risen by 59%, but if you had invested at the IPO price, the combination of accepting a lowball offer and all of the expenses added by Rally had whittled your return down to 15% pretax.

So far, six of the nine books that I invested in have been bought out, all well below market prices.  Since I was buying during the trading windows below the IPO price my returns have been very good, but at the expense of the opportunity for future gains.  Most of the books worth investing in are gone, and they have been replaced by high population bronze age keys bought at the top of the market, like Giant Size X-Men #1 in CGC 9.8 for $64k or Amazing Spiderman 129 in CGC 9.8 for $40k.  The market value for the new books are down 30-40% from where Rally bought them, but Rally investors, convinced that "comics are hot!!!!" by all of the buyouts, are buying everything in sight.  I've been withdrawing my money since there isn't much left worth buying.

I don't regret using Rally, and I'm not concerned that it's all a scam.  My withdrawals have been processed quickly, and I just don't think they've put in all of this work over the last few years to run a smash & grab job on customer deposits.  Just understand if you buy in that your fellow shareholders and Rally know nothing about comics, and you are at their mercy when decisions are made.

This all sounds about right, thanks for sharing.  

You mitigate the risk to some extent by fractionalizing, but the fee you pay is essentially the control, and may be subject to the whims of people you think aren't acting totally rationally.  But like all investments (and life in general), there will be some luck involved.

 

HOWEVER, if I was doing some (I assume this is legal) finagling of the system, I would do this:

1.  Buy in normally for some large percentage of the comic (I'm not sure if there's limits on how much you can own).

2.  If a comic gets hot, vote (assuming I control enough votes) to sell the comic to myself (or someone close to me) at a below market price well before the comic reaches the peak.  I might even use equity gains to get loans if I can find the right lender and the interest works out.

2a.  As the illustrated story above shows, even if the comic is skyrocketing you can probably get some owners to just 'sell now', so you might only need to control 30% of shares to get a below market 'sell' done.

3.  Sell (you own all of it now) at the peak and keep that profit for myself.

4.  So essentially for a fraction you paid of the original price, I've 'reserved' this book if it goes nuclear.  But at minimum, I probably won't lose any money and its just a long term slow investment.

Of course, its no small feat to put down 30% of a $100K-$500K comic, but obviously there are plenty of savvy people who can do it.  I have no idea if there are enforceable safeguards to stop the above from happening (I guess the risk could be someone else who controls 30-40% doing it to you first), or maybe its encouraged because it'll get more people interested in investing.   

 

Note:  A lot of the criticism in this thread seems to be about "This is not how to collect or enjoy comic books" or some such thing.  And that's fine, but those sentiments have nothing to do with whether this is scam or good idea (which it might or might not be both).  Like fantasy football or gambling on football, you can enjoy watchin or playing football without thinking about those things at all, or you can enjoy those things even more than actually watching or playing the game, or you can enjoy them all in any combination that works for you.

Another Note:  This is a relatively new avenue of investing.  So if you there may be opportunities to LEGALLY exploit methods or create best practices that maximize haven't been thought of yet (or haven't been shared publicly yet).

 

[valiantman]

On 9/2/2021 at 1:37 PM, MrBedrock said:

On 9/2/2021 at 12:37 PM, Kryptic1 said:

Here's my experience with Rally.  I first learned about them through the thread in the General forum, and I really liked the idea of fractional investing, but I thought Rally's approach added too many expenses that would ultimately have to come out of investor returns.  I didn't plan to invest, but I watched as most of the comics were dropping in their secondary trading windows, and figured that the discount that I was getting to market value would offset those costs.  I deposited my money and started to buy up any comics that had fallen well under FMV.  I was watching the same comics climb higher and higher at auction, but on Rally they kept dropping.  In the Rally threads on Twitter, people were declaring "comics are dead!" because all they knew about the market was what they saw on Rally.  I kept buying, assuming that people would eventually catch on and bid the books back up to FMV.

Then the buyout offers started to come in.  When I joined Rally, I wasn't too concerned about the lack of control over the timing of the sale.  I assumed most shareholders would make rational decisions and since Rally makes the final decision on buyouts they could overrule the shareholders if necessary.  I couldn't have been more wrong.  The first offer was for Amazing Fantasy 15 in CGC 8.0 at $240k.  Days earlier, a copy in the same grade had sold on the Comiclink Exchange for $300k.  I reached out to Rally and asked why they would even consider such a low offer.  They responded that they would present all "qualified" offers to shareholders.  I also offered to buy up all shares from those who wanted to accept the offer so that anyone who wanted to stay in long-term could do so, but I got no response.  The offer was approved by over 80% of shareholders.  Rally had bought the book for $189k and it was worth $300k at the time of the sale.  That market had risen by 59%, but if you had invested at the IPO price, the combination of accepting a lowball offer and all of the expenses added by Rally had whittled your return down to 15% pretax.

So far, six of the nine books that I invested in have been bought out, all well below market prices.  Since I was buying during the trading windows below the IPO price my returns have been very good, but at the expense of the opportunity for future gains.  Most of the books worth investing in are gone, and they have been replaced by high population bronze age keys bought at the top of the market, like Giant Size X-Men #1 in CGC 9.8 for $64k or Amazing Spiderman 129 in CGC 9.8 for $40k.  The market value for the new books are down 30-40% from where Rally bought them, but Rally investors, convinced that "comics are hot!!!!" by all of the buyouts, are buying everything in sight.  I've been withdrawing my money since there isn't much left worth buying.

I don't regret using Rally, and I'm not concerned that it's all a scam.  My withdrawals have been processed quickly, and I just don't think they've put in all of this work over the last few years to run a smash & grab job on customer deposits.  Just understand if you buy in that your fellow shareholders and Rally know nothing about comics, and you are at their mercy when decisions are made.

Expand  

Thanks for your insight.

Now the fun begins. Let's sit back and enjoy the show as Valiantman picks and chooses the pieces of your post that best fit his argument.

Kryptic1's comments stand as is.  He's accurately described how he made money on comic books he could not have afforded outright.

He didn't "do without".  He made money on comics he liked, but couldn't afford.  He didn't own them, so he didn't control the sale.

Profit on books he wanted, happy while he had them, profiting when he didn't.  Win-win.

[bluechip]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:36 AM, batman_fan said:

Is it too early to talk about Obadiah Oldbuck and why it should be more valuable than Action 1?

That time is past.  Real people in the know know that Inspector Jabot came first.

[valiantman]

On 9/2/2021 at 12:26 PM, waaaghboss said:

What makes this tricky to even talk about is you seem to keep changing your sales pitch.   

 

"It's an investment!"

"No, it's a layaway plan" 

"Wait, it's how you can own a piece of a first appearance"

"No it's an investment again!"

 

If you just pushed the financial investment angle and dropped the collectible pitch, I think you'd actually have a defensible argument.  Not a good investment imo, but a decent argument.  

I'm not selling anything.

This is like teaching, where you have the say the same thing five different ways for each person in the classroom to figure out which one will stick in their own mind.

The only way to teach something five different ways is to know it five different ways.