The story of a promise made during the Korean War 9 9

[Phill the Governor]

On 3/9/2022 at 11:06 PM, szav said:

I think you're possibly overanalyzing and overcomplicating it.   And when I say overcomplicating it, I'm not saying your logic about the stepwise price escalation is flawed or hard to follow.  I just think its irrelevant.  Things are worth to people precisely what they pay for them at any given moment in time, it doesn't really matter how they got there.

While I agree alleged, or even actual shilling and staged sales suck because, as you suggest you might have been able to get things cheaper had they not happened, and like you I like to get things for less rather than more,  you're also presuming prices wouldn't have reached where they are now in the absence of a few, or even many shilled/staged sales.  There's no knowing.  You seem pretty certain there's foul play with the auction houses and in the market, so I would say rest comfortable in that knowledge and take advantage of being able to avoid paying inflated/unfair prices on the things you want, and stick to things you think are correctly priced.

In the wake of investment companies, and books regularly breaking 1mil, I would most certainly say prices would not have reached where they are now without the manipulation.

My only option as a collector (and I am a collector. I love comic books and art and the hobby as a whole) is to buy books I like that are within my budget. I am savvy enough to take advantage of time payments. But that said, I am priced out of many books that I would have liked to get a copy of at this point... when entry level copies of key/desirable GA & SA issues are now regularly 4-5 figures.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Phill the Governor

[Phill the Governor]

On 3/9/2022 at 11:22 PM, buttock said:

Sure, but just because one bad event happened doesn't mean that every event that follows is also bad.  

Agreed.

[sfcityduck]

On 3/9/2022 at 8:06 PM, szav said:

Things are worth to people precisely what they pay for them at any given moment in time, it doesn't really matter how they got there.

 

Uh ... the whole law of fraudulent misrepresentation is that people get to an over inflated price because they have been given incorrect information.  When the correct information comes to light, prices often plummet.  That's the whole foundation of securities fraud.  So how prices get to where they are does matter ... quite a lot actually.  

Having said that, I'm not saying anything untoward has happened with the Promise Collection.  Just that your philosophy is out of step with our civil and criminal laws.  

[sfcityduck]

Good questions. 

Shilling should be illegal.  After all, the seller could put on a reserve to protect a minimum price. Shilling is fake bidding to drive up a price as high as a buyer will go.  So it does not reflect a true unmanipulated market price. Shilling causes immediate harm to the buyer, who is paying more than they would with a real underbidder.  Shilling is illegal in many states.  Texas has a lot of backwards laws.  Perhaps a reason auction companies might want to hold auctions there.

Fraudulent misrepresentation applies in almost all contexts.  For example, if someone tells you a book is resto free and it turns out that was a knowing misrepresentation, you might learn to appreciate that body of law.

Generally, most schemes to ladder up prices do not cause damage until prices correct.  But most schemes ultimately collapse.  

A false sales scheme using fake transactions likely would be actionable only by people who bought from the schemers at inflated prices.

Edited March 10, 2022 by sfcityduck

[tth2]

On 3/10/2022 at 1:09 AM, buttock said:

The reason you never hear about that is because they had to use the Chinese mafia to facilitate so that it couldn't be traced back to the government. 

Sorry, I was distracted.  Is someone paging Brother TTH2?

[Larryw7]

The only thing that raised a red flag for me was the Whiz 2 and Tec 38 had the wrong back covers that were not caught by CGC. I'm not so much concerned with CGC's error- anyone can make a mistake- but I don't understand how two major books that were supposedly purchased in the early forties ended up with the wrong back cover. That's something more akin to a more contemporary collector or dealer trying to pull a fast one on an unsuspecting buyer.

[jimbo_7071]

On 3/10/2022 at 4:35 AM, Larryw7 said:

The only thing that raised a red flag for me was the Whiz 2 and Tec 38 had the wrong back covers that were not caught by CGC. I'm not so much concerned with CGC's error- anyone can make a mistake- but I don't understand how two major books that were supposedly purchased in the early forties ended up with the wrong back cover. That's something more akin to a more contemporary collector or dealer trying to pull a fast one on an unsuspecting buyer.

I guess I'd want to know whether those back covers were attached with tape and whether it looked like 70-year-old tape or 20-year-old tape.

To me, secrecy in this hobby often means that someone has something to hide.

I would hate to think that some dealer bought this collection for a song from an unsuspecting family, but in this hobby, we all know that it could happen.

Many people choose not to flaunt their wealth, but I think that most people—assuming the story is true—would choose to honor Junie by sharing his identity.

Edited March 12, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[Straw-Man]

On 3/9/2022 at 4:55 PM, sfcityduck said:

Agree with above.  The bigger question, for me, is why does CGC think it gets to determine what comic collections qualify as "pedigrees" and which do not?  The pedigree concept pre-existed CGC.  Key pedigrees pre-existed CGC.  CGC has no right to be the arbiter of what is or is not a pedigree.  It holds no trademark on the term "pedigree," has not trademarked the previously recognized pedigrees, and has no right to be the sole arbiter.

For example, if a competing company were to label as a pedigree books not presently recognized by Heritage, but previously recognized by the comic collecting community as a pedigree, would Heritage honor that designation?

If a competing company were to recognize a previously unknown pedigree, would Heritage honor that pedigree designation? 

I would hope the answer to both questions would be "yes."  If not, Heritage and CGC might end up facing claims for anti-competitive behavior.   

fraud, “liability,” and now anti-competition actions!   this thread should count as 1 credit for any of you law students reading.  

here is heritage “honoring” a ped from the other guys before cgc decided to recognize cape cods.   i’m sending this to the justice dept., too; maybe it’s not too late to call off the investigation.

https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=0+790+231&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Nty=1&Ntt=cod+cbcs&limitTo=all&ic4=KeywordSearch-A-K-071316

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Straw-Man

[bronze johnny]

On 3/10/2022 at 6:48 AM, Straw-Man said:

fraud, “liability,” and now anti-competition actions!   this thread should count as 1 credit for any of you law students reading.  

here is heritage “honoring” a ped from the other guys before cgc decided to recognize cape cods.   i’m sending this to the justice dept., too; maybe it’s not too late to call off the investigation.

https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=0+790+231&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Nty=1&Ntt=cod+cbcs&limitTo=all&ic4=KeywordSearch-A-K-071316

 

We also need greater transparency in auctions. How many people really understand what it means when an auction house itself bids on items in its auctions? How does anyone verify whether the owner of an item on auction is bidding the price up? Government regulation is required if the auction houses don’t take the initiative to be more transparent.

[telerites]

On 3/9/2022 at 4:55 PM, sfcityduck said:

The bigger question, for me, is why does CGC think it gets to determine what comic collections qualify as "pedigrees" and which do not?  The pedigree concept pre-existed CGC.  Key pedigrees pre-existed CGC.  CGC has no right to be the arbiter of what is or is not a pedigree.  It holds no trademark on the term "pedigree," has not trademarked the previously recognized pedigrees, and has no right to be the sole arbiter.

I personally have no issue with CGC deciding what they think is a pedigree as long as they follow their own definition.  BP mentioned it above, CBCS recognized other peds before CGC like the New Hampshire, Eldon, Cookeville, etc.  

I wonder if those would still be unrecognized by CGC if CBCS didn't jump in first and was pulling at least some business away from them.

Wrong or right, agree or disagree, like I mentioned earlier I applaud your efforts and it is a fun speculative venture.

 

[EastEnd1]

On 3/10/2022 at 8:14 AM, telerites said:

I personally have no issue with CGC deciding what they think is a pedigree as long as they follow their own definition.  BP mentioned it above, CBCS recognized other peds before CGC like the New Hampshire, Eldon, Cookeville, etc.  

I wonder if those would still be unrecognized by CGC if CBCS didn't jump in first and was pulling at least some business away from them.

Wrong or right, agree or disagree, like I mentioned earlier I applaud your efforts and it is a fun speculative venture.

 

Seems to me CGC simply set a business policy... the market (ie, WE) granted them the authority to determine pedigrees. 

[telerites]

On 3/10/2022 at 7:24 AM, EastEnd1 said:

Seems to me CGC simply set a business policy... the market (ie, WE) granted them the authority to determine pedigrees. 

I agree with you.  Like I said I have no issue with CGC deciding what constitutes a pedigree. 

[tth2]

On 3/10/2022 at 9:24 PM, EastEnd1 said:

Seems to me CGC simply set a business policy... the market (ie, WE) granted them the authority to determine pedigrees. 

Thank you for saying this.  It seems incredibly obvious to me, but apparently not to everyone.

What's next, some actor suing the Oscars because they awarded some Best Actor to another actor and now much of the general public believes that guy's performance was better?

It's just CGC's determination what to put on THEIR labels.  No one has to blindly follow it like lemmings. We are free to exercise our own discretion. 

For example, CGC (wrongfully in my opinion) doesn't recognize the David Toth books as a pedigree.  That's okay, I still covet them and will pay a premium for them.  Same with the Golden State books and some Slobodians.  On the other hand, CGC recognized the Rocky Mountains, Suscha News and Oaklands, despite mid-60s to 1970s high grade collections being common as dirt, so I could care less.   

[EastEnd1]

On 3/10/2022 at 8:37 AM, tth2 said:

Thank you for saying this.  It seems incredibly obvious to me, but apparently not to everyone.

What's next, some actor suing the Oscars because they awarded some Best Actor to another actor and now much of the general public believes that guy's performance was better?

It's just CGC's determination what to put on THEIR labels.  No one has to blindly follow it like lemmings. We are free to exercise our own discretion. 

For example, CGC (wrongfully in my opinion) doesn't recognize the David Toth books as a pedigree.  That's okay, I still covet them and will pay a premium for them.  Same with the Golden State books and some Slobodians.  On the other hand, CGC recognized the Rocky Mountains, Suscha News and Oaklands, despite mid-60s to 1970s high grade collections being common as dirt, so I could care less.   

I LOVE the David Toth books... best collection of 1950/60s DC's I've ever seen.  Wish I'd have bought more when they came to market...

Edited March 10, 2022 by EastEnd1

[PDGray]

How would one identify a Toth book or a Slobodian?  I see the "Golden State" and a few books listed as being "Slobodian" listed all the time, but since it isn't recognized by a company it isn't on my list of books to seek out.  

Honestly, there isn't much out there except relatively small blurbs or the occasional article surrounding many of these pedigree collections.  I am stating my intent right here, right now to start a video series about them.  I won't claim to know the whole truth, but if I can at least compile some information and put it on a YouTube Channel then I think it could benefit the hobby as a whole.

 

PDG

[sfcityduck]

On 3/10/2022 at 3:48 AM, Straw-Man said:

 

here is heritage “honoring” a ped from the other guys before cgc decided to recognize cape cods.   i’m sending this to the justice dept., too; maybe it’s not too late to call off the investigation.

https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=0+790+231&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Nty=1&Ntt=cod+cbcs&limitTo=all&ic4=KeywordSearch-A-K-071316

 

Glad to see Heritage is a neutral player!  

Often the most effective policing of markets is conducted by customers, not law enforcement. That can take many forms, sometimes as simple as praising sellers when they act right and criticizing when they do not.  Here, I am glad that the answer to my question about pedigree recognition is a response that merits praise for Heritage. We all should be happy and appreciative when tent pole businesses in the comic collecting infrastructure do the right things.

 

[EastEnd1]

On 3/10/2022 at 9:15 AM, PDGray said:

How would one identify a Toth book or a Slobodian?  I see the "Golden State" and a few books listed as being "Slobodian" listed all the time, but since it isn't recognized by a company it isn't on my list of books to seek out.  

Honestly, there isn't much out there except relatively small blurbs or the occasional article surrounding many of these pedigree collections.  I am stating my intent right here, right now to start a video series about them.  I won't claim to know the whole truth, but if I can at least compile some information and put it on a YouTube Channel then I think it could benefit the hobby as a whole.

 

PDG

Not sure about the Slobodians but the David Toth books were sold through Heritage around 2008.  Unfortunately CGC did not include a "David Toth Collection" identifier on their label (as they have with other collections), but you can easily see the books by going to the Heritage "past sale" archive and using "David Toth Collection" as a search term.  There were also a number of really good threads on the Toth books right here on these boards, including a really nice one by tth2 I just read where he interviews the son of the original collector.  

[tth2]

On 3/10/2022 at 10:40 PM, EastEnd1 said:

There were also a number of really good threads on the Toth books right here on these boards, including a really nice one by tth2 I just read where he interviews the son of the original collector. 

More like me grilling the poor guy when he was nice enough to make an appearance on these Boards! 

[tth2]

On 3/10/2022 at 10:40 PM, EastEnd1 said:

On 3/10/2022 at 10:15 PM, PDGray said:

How would one identify a Toth book or a Slobodian?  I see the "Golden State" and a few books listed as being "Slobodian" listed all the time, but since it isn't recognized by a company it isn't on my list of books to seek out.  

Honestly, there isn't much out there except relatively small blurbs or the occasional article surrounding many of these pedigree collections.  I am stating my intent right here, right now to start a video series about them.  I won't claim to know the whole truth, but if I can at least compile some information and put it on a YouTube Channel then I think it could benefit the hobby as a whole.

 

PDG

Expand  

Not sure about the Slobodians but the David Toth books were sold through Heritage around 2008.  Unfortunately CGC did not include a "David Toth Collection" identifier on their label (as they have with other collections), but you can easily see the books by going to the Heritage "past sale" archive and using "David Toth Collection" as a search term.

No distinctive markings on the Toth or Slobodians, I'm afraid.

[Robot Man]

On 3/10/2022 at 1:35 AM, Larryw7 said:

The only thing that raised a red flag for me was the Whiz 2 and Tec 38 had the wrong back covers that were not caught by CGC. I'm not so much concerned with CGC's error- anyone can make a mistake- but I don't understand how two major books that were supposedly purchased in the early forties ended up with the wrong back cover. That's something more akin to a more contemporary collector or dealer trying to pull a fast one on an unsuspecting buyer.

Possibly an honest mistake. Comics took a beating and covers get detached. Some kid might have put the wrong book inside the wrong cover a long time ago.

I know I bought several large GA collections of covers and coverless books many years before the internet. I took my best guess trying to unite the covers to the right contents. I'm sure I was wrong on some. There simply wasn't the technology and information available back then. Most all of them have moved on out into the world now. 

But in this day and age and on big keys like these, there is simply no excuse for this to happen. Especially, for a company like CGC.