Marvel comics #1 8 8

[VintageComics]

On 2/24/2022 at 7:03 PM, Timely said:

Because the amount of writing is quite extensive, probably 10 times the amount that’s on a Mile High. At some point, you have to deduct for writing.

Fair point but I disagree with it at this point, nearly 20 years after re-entering the hobby. 

I can understand why Borock would have graded it this way 20 years ago and even agreed with it back then, when grading was in it's infancy (as were rules as to what constitutes Pedigrees) but now that writing has been made acceptable under certain criteria this book's markings hold a very different perception. 

To me, qualifying how much is considered extensive is a very subjective way of allowing something and up to all sorts of interpretation. Whether it says 'Recil Macon' throughout the book, or Larson or Church on the cover or it's a Pay Copy to me the writing should not be qualified at all if (as someone said previously) it's on the book before it was offered to the public...and I'd qualify that as writing being on the book for a good reason.

Meaning, pedigree collector's markings and publisher markings would be considered a good reason. 

A store owner's kid scribbling all over the cover before putting it on the newsstand wouldn't.

Grading has changed over time for many things and IMO for this book it's one of those things. 

Anyway, just my 2 cents. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by VintageComics

[sfcityduck]

On 2/24/2022 at 4:03 PM, Timely said:

Because the amount of writing is quite extensive, probably 10 times the amount that’s on a Mile High. At some point, you have to deduct for writing.

If you are going to deduct for writing, which I agree is one principled option, it really should start with any writing whatsoever.  A comic book with post-production writing on it cannot be mint if other post-production copies don't have writing on them. So if one geographic area has a distributor that writes on the books and another does not, that is still a defect.

Which is is not to say a comic with writing on it cannot be desirable.  The writing may increase its desirability.

But aren't grade and desirability two different things? 

What I hate in the post-CGC world is the notion that a book with a higher numerical rating by CGC is more desirable than a book with a lower numerical rating.  But, I think file copy stamps, court exhibit stamps, certain names, etc., can all increase the desirability of a book.  Even though they decrease the grade.

If you're going to mark a book down for writing and marking, that's great, but let's not say some writing is good, other writing is bad, and pretend this is a science that allows you to know which books are more desirable.

Edited February 25, 2022 by sfcityduck

[lighthouse]

Just imagine what this would sell for if it had a stamped rocket on it!

[Timely]

On 2/24/2022 at 6:22 PM, sfcityduck said:

If you are going to deduct for writing, which I agree is one principled option, it really should start with any writing whatsoever.  A comic book with post-production writing on it cannot be mint if other post-production copies don't have writing on them. So if one geographic area has a distributor that writes on the books and another does not, that is still a defect.

Which is is not to say a comic with writing on it cannot be desirable.  The writing may increase its desirability.

But aren't grade and desirability two different things? 

What I hate in the post-CGC world is the notion that a book with a higher numerical rating by CGC is more desirable than a book with a lower numerical rating.  But, I think file copy stamps, court exhibit stamps, certain names, etc., can all increase the desirability of a book.  Even though they decrease the grade.

If you're going to mark a book down for writing and marking, that's great, but let's not say some writing is good, other writing is bad, and pretend this is a science that allows you to know which books are more desirable.

Not every thing is that black and white. Writing was widely done on covers from 1930’s-1970’s.  An arrival date is perfectly acceptable on a book from 1950, but unheard of on a book from 2010. 

[sfcityduck]

On 2/24/2022 at 5:29 PM, Timely said:

Not every thing is that black and white. Writing was widely done on covers from 1930’s-1970’s.  An arrival date is perfectly acceptable on a book from 1950, but unheard of on a book from 2010. 

You are far more expert than I, but I've got a lot of late 1940s to early 1950s books out of Oregon, and none have writing on the cover.  On the other hand, I've also got a lot of 1970s comics from Oregon and they all have a spray paint stripe.  My feeling is that the earlier books are closer to minty fresh than the ones the distributor mangled in the 1970s.  And if I had two books, all other things being equal, and one being unmarked and the other had a name on it or even a distributor code or a date stamp, I'd expect that later book to take a hit.

Edited February 25, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Timely]

Distro ink starts to become uncommon in the early to mid 80’s as a colored stripe was now printed on the top edge. I saw a newsstand book from 2008 just last week that had distro ink on it! That book was down graded quite a bit. A book from the 70’s with distro ink would not be down graded unless it had excessive distro ink. 

[paqart]

On 2/22/2022 at 9:30 AM, pmpknface said:

I'm a huge Marvel guy.  I own around 30k books and 90% of them must be Marvel.  I'm not in the market for anything like this and most of my $ goes to funding my LB Cole need these days, but in my personal opinion this is THE book.  I recall the Heritage catalog that had this back in I think 2006 and I was happy to just have the catalog to look at that had this book.  There may be better copies, but the significance would mean a lot to someone like me.  Good luck to any future bidders on this one!  I envy the heck outta you!  

I once met a guy who had three of these back in 1977 or so. At the time, these were listed at $10,000 for a mint copy in Overstreet (or maybe VF, not sure about that). He said he didn't think he would ever be able to afford any of them. However, he bent his back to the task and managed to work out trades that allowed him to obtain three copies, all of which I held in my 12 year old hands. I remember the day quite well, a sunny afternoon in California. The guy owned a ranch but I don't remember who he was or how I managed the invite to see his collection. My guess is that I ran into him at a convention and got the invite that way. He also had some original art by Barks that was quite interesting but the 3 Marvel Comics #1's remain the most interesting three comics I've ever seen in one place.

Edited February 25, 2022 by paqart

[VintageComics]

On 2/24/2022 at 11:31 PM, paqart said:

I once met a guy who had three of these back in 1977 or so. At the time, these were listed at $10,000 for a mint copy in Overstreet (or maybe VF, not sure about that). He said he didn't think he would ever be able to afford any of them. However, he bent his back to the task and managed to work out trades that allowed him to obtain three copies, all of which I held in my 12 year old hands, each in a mylar sleeve. I remember the day quite well, a sunny afternoon in California. The guy owned a ranch but I don't remember who he was or how I managed the invite to see his collection. My guess is that I ran into him at a convention and got the invite that way. He also had some original art by Barks that was quite interesting but the 3 Marvel Comics #1's remain the most interesting three comics I've ever seen in one place.

Pretty sure GAtor had two in his booth (or was it Bedrock's booth) about 15 years ago. One was an October copy.

I think (but am not sure) that one or both may have been owned by Brent @ Quality Comix at the time.

I'd have killed for that October copy but there was no way I could afford it back then. 

I did manage to buy a copy shortly after that with a recreated back cover and owned it for a while before having to sell it to start my business. 

The last one I saw was about 5 years ago. It was raw, unrestored highish grade copy being shopped around and it eventually was sold and resold. 

My favorite book for about 40 years now. Love it. 

[paqart]

On 2/25/2022 at 12:40 AM, VintageComics said:

Pretty sure GAtor had two in his booth (or was it Bedrock's booth) about 15 years ago. One was an October copy.

I think (but am not sure) that one or both may have been owned by Brent @ Quality Comix at the time.

I'd have killed for that October copy but there was no way I could afford it back then. 

I did manage to buy a copy shortly after that with a recreated back cover and owned it for a while before having to sell it to start my business. 

The last one I saw was about 5 years ago. It was raw, unrestored highish grade copy being shopped around and it eventually was sold and resold. 

My favorite book for about 40 years now. Love it. 

The coolest book I ever owned, briefly, was Feature Book NN ( Tracy). My copy was in 1.8 condition but for a flea market find, still very cool.

[lou_fine]

On 2/24/2022 at 4:03 PM, Timely said:

Because the amount of writing is quite extensive, probably 10 times the amount that’s on a Mile High. At some point, you have to deduct for writing.

I would certainly not expect any deductions to be taken off for either the Mile High codes or for the Larson name or numeric recall codes as they are generally not only unobtrusive, but books with these codes are actually preferred by most collectors as they serve to verify the pedigree authenticity of the book in question.    

But based upon both your extensive prior and current working experience with the 2 biggest grading companies, would this also apply for other pedigree books such as the Recil Macon's and the Cosmic Aeroplane's due to the much more extensive and rather obtrusive writing or notation done throughout these particular pedigree books?  Just wondering since you do not see the books from these 2 pedigrees ever grade into the 9's and I was wondering if the writing/notation was once of the reasons for this, besides just the technical defects thst might be showing up on these books here.  After all, like you just said, at some point you have to deduct for the writing.  

I guess the same thing with the so-called "camp copies" of the Okajima pedigree books because although these copies have so much more large and quite obtrusive writing on the covers as compared to just the regular non-camp Okajima books, yet they always sell for a lot more money than the regular Okajima books due to their much greater desirability.  Just wondering how the writing on these "camp copies" would be treated from a certified grading point of view.  

[Timely]

On 2/25/2022 at 2:51 AM, lou_fine said:

I would certainly not expect any deductions to be taken off for either the Mile High codes or for the Larson name or numeric recall codes as they are generally not only unobtrusive, but books with these codes are actually preferred by most collectors as they serve to verify the pedigree authenticity of the book in question.    

But based upon both your extensive prior and current working experience with the 2 biggest grading companies, would this also apply for other pedigree books such as the Recil Macon's and the Cosmic Aeroplane's due to the much more extensive and rather obtrusive writing or notation done throughout these particular pedigree books?  Just wondering since you do not see the books from these 2 pedigrees ever grade into the 9's and I was wondering if the writing/notation was once of the reasons for this, besides just the technical defects thst might be showing up on these books here.  After all, like you just said, at some point you have to deduct for the writing.  

I guess the same thing with the so-called "camp copies" of the Okajima pedigree books because although these copies have so much more large and quite obtrusive writing on the covers as compared to just the regular non-camp Okajima books, yet they always sell for a lot more money than the regular Okajima books due to their much greater desirability.  Just wondering how the writing on these "camp copies" would be treated from a certified grading point of view.  

Generally, those pedigrees are low enough grade on their own due to physical flaws that the writing is a consideration. I do recall the Recil Macon copy of Phantom Lady #17 taking a hit on grade due to writing. I think Recil filled in the coupon on the back cover and that dropped the grade a point or so.

[october]

On 2/25/2022 at 9:25 AM, Timely said:

Generally, those pedigrees are low enough grade on their own due to physical flaws that the writing is a consideration. I do recall the Recil Macon copy of Phantom Lady #17 taking a hit on grade due to writing. I think Recil filled in the coupon on the back cover and that dropped the grade a point or so.

Maybe it was the PL 16? I own that one, and yeah, quite a bit of writing. It's otherwise 1-2 full points higher than the 5.5 it got. 

I like the writing actually. It's kind of funny. I can imagine him sitting at his wooden desk in a 1940's classroom, stewing about whoever "jolly blond sister" was, mentally saying "fooey" to her and everybody else. Then getting over it and trying to list out all of the Fiction House titles.

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by october

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 2/25/2022 at 10:03 AM, october said:

Maybe it was the PL 16? I own that one, and yeah, quite a bit of writing. It's otherwise 1-2 full points higher than the 5.5 it got. 

I like the writing actually. It's kind of funny. I can imagine him sitting at his wooden desk in a 1940's classroom, stewing about whoever "jolly blond sister" was, mentally saying "fooey" to her and everybody else. Then getting over it and trying to list out all of the Fiction House titles.

 

It is a gorgeous book! Congratulations!

[Straw-Man]

On 2/24/2022 at 11:40 PM, VintageComics said:

Pretty sure GAtor had two in his booth (or was it Bedrock's booth) about 15 years ago. One was an October copy.

I think (but am not sure) that one or both may have been owned by Brent @ Quality Comix at the time.

I'd have killed for that October copy but there was no way I could afford it back then. 

I did manage to buy a copy shortly after that with a recreated back cover and owned it for a while before having to sell it to start my business. 

The last one I saw was about 5 years ago. It was raw, unrestored highish grade copy being shopped around and it eventually was sold and resold. 

My favorite book for about 40 years now. Love it. 

i enjoyed its time with me, as well.

[VintageComics]

On 2/25/2022 at 12:51 PM, Straw-Man said:

i enjoyed its time with me, as well.

I forgot you owned that book. What a killer copy it was. 

[Straw-Man]

On 2/25/2022 at 11:59 AM, VintageComics said:

I forgot you owned that book. What a killer copy it was. 

 

[Straw-Man]

pretty sweet recreated bc. 

[paqart]

On 2/24/2022 at 10:45 PM, sfcityduck said:

You are far more expert than I, but I've got a lot of late 1940s to early 1950s books out of Oregon, and none have writing on the cover.  On the other hand, I've also got a lot of 1970s comics from Oregon and they all have a spray paint stripe.  My feeling is that the earlier books are closer to minty fresh than the ones the distributor mangled in the 1970s.  And if I had two books, all other things being equal, and one being unmarked and the other had a name on it or even a distributor code or a date stamp, I'd expect that later book to take a hit.

That would be fine with me because I like the date stamps. To me, they attach the comic more solidly with the history of the era in a way the comic itself does not. The date stamp makes it easier for me to visualize the comic entering the distribution system and making its way all the way to a newsstand and into the hands of a customer. Without a stamp isn't a problem but it makes that aspect of the comic's life less "fresh".

[lou_fine]

On 2/25/2022 at 8:03 AM, october said:

Maybe it was the PL 16? I own that one, and yeah, quite a bit of writing. It's otherwise 1-2 full points higher than the 5.5 it got. 

 

Well, from this cover image here, I guess old sly Recil was more of a "leg man" than anything else.  

To each their own, but I imagine this means that when Recil saunters up to the counter at the local KFC or Church's, he's much more into ordering a dark juicy thigh, as opposed to a dry white breast.  

On a more serious note though, from my own personal point of view, PL 16 is the all-time classic lingerie cover of the GA and should be on every GGA collector's list of books to acquire for their personal collection.    

I still remember Mark Wilson having a pristine copy of this book back in the day and he was asking something like $500 or $600 for it which was still over top of guide for the book at the time.  Even though Mark swore to me up and down that he had not done anything at all to the book, I was still skeptical because of how nice the book was combined with Mark's well known reputation for "wet cleaning" all of his books no matter how nice they were to start off with.  Ended up taking a hard pass on the book, but by the time I had changed my mind a couple of weeks later, he had already sold it to another collector by then.    

[Aman619]

On 2/25/2022 at 2:28 PM, Straw-Man said:

 

Does this copy not have Oct or Nov?