The $3.12 million Cap 1 sale makes me ask again: Where will this book stand in the GA hierarchy? 6 6

[tth2]

On 4/20/2022 at 10:11 PM, Bronty said:

Ehhh.   I'm not sure who is more cynical, you, for holding the view that people have been treated that way, or me, for thinking that none of us are here with any expectation of holding hands and singing Kumbaya, and that people in any hobby or frankly any pursuit that is sufficiently competitive will get *and should expect* similar treatment.    

 

There's a difference between exploited and having one's face ripped off.  Nothing wrong with someone being seen as a fat cash cow and being cultivated to provide a steady stream of income for a long period of time.  But the mindset unfortunately has been to extract as much money as you can from them in as short a time period as possible with no regard for the long term consequences (i.e., another potentially big fish driven out of the hobby).

[Bronty]

On 4/20/2022 at 10:15 AM, tth2 said:

There's a difference between exploited and having one's face ripped off.  Nothing wrong with someone being seen as a fat cash cow and being cultivated to provide a steady stream of income for a long period of time.  But the mindset unfortunately has been to extract as much money as you can from them in as short a time period as possible with no regard for the long term consequences (i.e., another potentially big fish driven out of the hobby).

People are always going to put their own self interest ahead of that of the hobby as a whole.    That's why we have restoration, and pressing and all the rest, not to mention a host of other problems outside of the hobby; its human nature to look out for #1.

The problem with treating someone gently to keep them around for a long time is that you don't know when/if the big fish is going to wise up, leave, if those future sales will be to another dealer, and if the next dealer will rip his face off.     So, a dealer in that situation is always going to go for maximum short term profit, and its perfectly logical.   Anything else is too dependent on ifs and buts.

Now, if you've got somebody that is going to be staying out of the public eye, and using you as a sole agent, sure, you can be more gentle.    That's the Nic Cage scenario where metro kept him around for a long time.    But if they are well known and/or their name is out there in overstreet ads and they want to be involved in the hobby as a dealer and they already are known in collectibles and mingle with others... that avenue is closed and you're back to maximizing short term profit.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Bronty

[goldust40]

On 4/20/2022 at 3:04 PM, tth2 said:

Imagine what this hobby would be like today if big money new entrants had been historically treated with care and integrity by big dealers, rather than as chum for circling sharks.  

If you had asked this question two years ago I would've said something else, but now, your point is moot. The new big money is here, it just arrived somewhat later than expected.

I'm not any kind of seer and have been guilty of thinking short term as much as most, but I always wondered what would happen if heavyweight investors started buying everything in the hobby rather than the blue chip keys that even people with only a passing interest in the hobby would know about. Well, now we know.

[LDarkseid1]

Ok, I think I just discovered why the buyer for the AS8 CGC 9.4 didn't want to release the private sale, publicly. Because assuming it's this person, they're going for a quick flip. Just saw it's going in an upcoming Heritage auction on the bottom of an email they sent out.

Edited April 20, 2022 by LDarkseid1

[Bronty]

oops

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Bronty

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:15 AM, tth2 said:

There's a difference between exploited and having one's face ripped off.  Nothing wrong with someone being seen as a fat cash cow and being cultivated to provide a steady stream of income for a long period of time.  But the mindset unfortunately has been to extract as much money as you can from them in as short a time period as possible with no regard for the long term consequences (i.e., another potentially big fish driven out of the hobby).

I hope that’s not happening. I had never known about the crypto guys interest until the insane gavel prices on the first Promise Collection sale. Since then, their influence and effects on our hobby have been undeniable.
I am aware of your views that there are some among us who carp too much about the grading of the Promise Collection. Nevertheless, I hope those guys don’t get their faces ripped off. If they got mad and left for stamp collecting or whatever, the crash here would be cataclysmic 

[LDarkseid1]

On 4/20/2022 at 12:19 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

I hope that’s not happening. I had never known about the crypto guys interest until the insane gavel prices on the first Promise Collection sale. Since then, their influence and effects on our hobby have been undeniable.
I am aware of your views that there are some among us who carp too much about the grading of the Promise Collection. Nevertheless, I hope those guys don’t get their faces ripped off. If they got mad and left for stamp collecting or whatever, the crash here would be cataclysmic 

I just feel like it wouldn’t be a crash, but a massive price correction to the levels we were at before everything went all bananas during the pandemic and up to now. But definitely possible some huge Crypto exit, and all the money they brought into buying comics could cause a crash. I could see it going either way I guess lol. So instead of $90K+, Hulk 181 CGC 9.8’s go back to the drop in the hat price of $40K-$45K haha

[VintageComics]

On 4/20/2022 at 3:19 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

I hope that’s not happening. I had never known about the crypto guys interest until the insane gavel prices on the first Promise Collection sale. Since then, their influence and effects on our hobby have been undeniable.
I am aware of your views that there are some among us who carp too much about the grading of the Promise Collection. Nevertheless, I hope those guys don’t get their faces ripped off. If they got mad and left for stamp collecting or whatever, the crash here would be cataclysmic 

Something to remember, though is that if people with really big money don't need to sell they often won't sell until they see a bigger offer so they just hold indefinitely if they won't turn a profit. 

Like, what will it take for Hariri to part with the Action #1's? It's tough enough to make an offer to part with the best book in the hobby, but how much would it take if the guy never needs the money? 

There's all sorts of buyers and collectors. A year ago I thought we were going to see a flash upwards and a steep drop after, but almost 2 years in now I'm not so sure and some other guys I've spoken to seem to feel the same, that this is more or less the new baseline and things are not going back to the way they were generally speaking. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 4/20/2022 at 4:36 PM, VintageComics said:

Something to remember, though is that if people with really big money don't need to sell they often won't sell until they see a bigger offer so they just hold indefinitely if they won't turn a profit. 

Like, what will it take for Hariri to part with the Action #1's? It's tough enough to make an offer to part with the best book in the hobby, but how much would it take if the guy never needs the money? 

There's all sorts of buyers and collectors. A year ago I thought we were going to see a flash upwards and a steep drop after, but almost 2 years in now I'm not so sure and some other guys I've spoken to seem to feel the same, that this is more or less the new baseline and things are not going back to the way they were generally speaking. 

We've had quite a bit of inflation that has to be factored in, too. $100,000 in 2022 dollars is not the same as $100,000 in 2019 dollars—far from it.

[lighthouse]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:54 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

Ok, I think I just discovered why the buyer for the AS8 CGC 9.4 didn't want to release the private sale, publicly. Because assuming it's this person, they're going for a quick flip. Just saw it's going in an upcoming Heritage auction on the bottom of an email they sent out.

Hey, one of those comics is mine.

[VintageComics]

On 4/20/2022 at 4:38 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

We've had quite a bit of inflation that has to be factored in, too. $100,000 in 2022 dollars is not the same as $100,000 in 2019 dollars—far from it.

For sure, but even pre-pandemic, I asked what it would take to part with an Action #1 9.0 and the reply was (paraphrasing it) "why would they do it for any number"?

[sfcityduck]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:39 PM, lighthouse said:

Hey, one of those comics is mine.

TTA 27?

[sfcityduck]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:44 PM, VintageComics said:

For sure, but even pre-pandemic, I asked what it would take to part with an Action #1 9.0 and the reply was (paraphrasing it) "why would they do it for any number"?

Hariri is not a comic investor.  His attachment to Action 1 is deeply personal - a fond memory of his father who was assassinated.  

[jimbo_7071]

On 4/20/2022 at 4:44 PM, VintageComics said:

For sure, but even pre-pandemic, I asked what it would take to part with an Action #1 9.0 and the reply was (paraphrasing it) "why would they do it for any number"?

There would be no reason other than a loss of interest. You don't have to be wealthy to feel that way about your books. I'm far from wealthy, but I would have no reason to sell any books unless I decided that they aren't a good fit for my collection. I don't need the money for anything because aside from basic necessities, the only thing I spend money on is comic books.

Edited April 20, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[lou_fine]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:39 PM, lighthouse said:

Hey, one of those comics is mine.

Pooh pooh about the so-called key Marvels as they show up in virtually every single auction and are pretty much as common as dirt on the bottom of your shoes.     

So, tell us....................how much DID you pay for that copy of AS 8 in CGC 9.4?  

[lighthouse]

On 4/20/2022 at 2:42 PM, lou_fine said:

Pooh pooh about the so-called key Marvels as they show up in virtually every single auction and are pretty much as common as dirt on the bottom of your shoes.     

So, tell us....................how much DID you pay for that copy of AS 8 in CGC 9.4?  

The same as you did. Obviously.

[Pantodude]

On 4/20/2022 at 5:42 PM, lou_fine said:

Pooh pooh about the so-called key Marvels as they show up in virtually every single auction and are pretty much as common as dirt on the bottom of your shoes.

Now, now.  A bit of a broad brush view, wouldn't you say?  There are entire Heritage, ComicLink and ComicConnect auctions without a single UK price variant of any SA Marvel key.  And a high grade UKPV?  Nigh impossible.  Incredible Hulk #1 has TWO in 7.5, none higher, followed by just ONE in 7.0!  Fantastic Four #2 is even more dramatic:  the highest-graded UKPV is .... a sole 5.0, with just 16 in all grades combined!   That scarcity rivals, if not beats, the scarcity of even the toughest GA books, keys or not, particularly in high grade.  And this is true of ALL the SA Marvels with UKPVs.  Might surprise most folks but true.  And easy to verify in the census data.  Just sayin.  But I can see why you feel that way about cents versions of Marvel keys!   

Edited April 20, 2022 by Pantodude

[Aman619]

On 4/20/2022 at 10:04 AM, tth2 said:

Imagine what this hobby would be like today if big money new entrants had been historically treated with care and integrity by big dealers, rather than as chum for circling sharks.  

I can think of 5.3 million reasons you’re spot on!

[tth2]

On 4/21/2022 at 2:37 AM, goldust40 said:

I always wondered what would happen if heavyweight investors started buying everything in the hobby rather than the blue chip keys that even people with only a passing interest in the hobby would know about.

Well, I would contend that part of the raping and pillaging of Parrino was that a number of lower-tier titles were foisted on him.  Yes, they were MH and yes there were some incredible grades, but it was clear that some dealers/collectors couldn't jump fast enough on this opportunity to exit these titles.

And yes, I know that he did get some blue chip keys too, but an All Flash run is not the title that any knowledgeable collector would use to trumpet their entry into comic biz.  I remember looking at his listings and marveling at the many pretty books, but ultimately shrugged because at the end of the day they were All Flash (and some other similarly lower-tier titles).  

But you're absolutely right that the Promise collection has shown demand for everything, from blue chip title to obscure niche title, from mega key to mid-run issue. 

[tth2]

On 4/21/2022 at 3:19 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

I hope that’s not happening. I had never known about the crypto guys interest until the insane gavel prices on the first Promise Collection sale. Since then, their influence and effects on our hobby have been undeniable.
I am aware of your views that there are some among us who carp too much about the grading of the Promise Collection. Nevertheless, I hope those guys don’t get their faces ripped off. If they got mad and left for stamp collecting or whatever, the crash here would be cataclysmic 

I hadn't even thought about the Promise Collection, because it's being conducted by auction. 

My comments related to new entrants in earlier days, when markets were much more opaque, who relied on dealers to navigate them through the hobby.