Church/MH Superman 1 record sale in January 7 7

[Kevin76]

On 4/13/2022 at 12:37 PM, G.A.tor said:

A little sleuthing. An 8.0 was removed from census. The church 8.0 serial no longer there, so had to be the church that upgraded to 8.5. Anyone could figure that out

rookies  

[MasterChief]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:37 AM, G.A.tor said:

On 4/13/2022 at 6:15 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

Know I totally get it and makes sense. I guess it's not a weird thing to do, despite not being an 8.0 anymore. I just assumed the other 8.0 was the one that bumped until you said it was the church copy.

A little sleuthing. An 8.0 was removed from census. The church 8.0 serial no longer there, so had to be the church that upgraded to 8.5. Anyone could figure that out

First 8.0 appeared in census July 01, 2001.

Second 8.0 appeared in census December 30, 2014.

8.0 removed from census December 28, 2021.

8.5 appears in census February 08, 2022.

When you run the Church 8.0 cert number (1072525001) the book pops as an 8.5 graded January 10, 2022. Same cert number. Apparently, the original cert number was used for the upgrade. First time I've seen that. In the past when a book is resubed, the old number is zeroed-out and a new number issued with new grade/label. Interesting aside, the color touch is identified as "Restoration" in the grader notes.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by MasterChief
image work

[PopKulture]

On 4/13/2022 at 12:05 PM, MasterChief said:

Interesting aside, the color touch is identified as "Restoration" in the grader notes.

That is interesting. How can one be certain that once the book is taken out of the blue holder for regrading that it won't be re-holdered in a restored or conserved slab? Surely one might seek assurances beforehand, which seems to diminish to some degree the whole notion of objectivity.  

Does the casual submittor receive similar allowances for a lower profile, non-pedigree book?

[Mr bla bla]

On 4/13/2022 at 7:22 PM, PopKulture said:

That is interesting. How can one be certain that once the book is taken out of the blue holder for regrading that it won't be re-holdered in a restored or conserved slab? Surely one might seek assurances beforehand, which seems to diminish to some degree the whole notion of objectivity.  

Does the casual submittor receive similar allowances for a lower profile, non-pedigree book?

A similar grade silver age key with the same CT as the Church Supe 1 would go straight into a purple restored holder (and would accordingly suffer a 90-95% loss of its identical blue label market value👍). Crazy but true ...

Edited April 13, 2022 by Mr bla bla

[Gotham Kid]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:05 PM, MasterChief said:

When you run the Church 8.0 cert number (1072525001) the book pops as an 8.5 graded January 10, 2022. Same cert number. Apparently, the original cert number was used for the upgrade. First time I've seen that. In the past when a book is resubed, the old number is zeroed-out and a new number issued with new grade/label.

first time ever I think

Edited April 13, 2022 by Gotham Kid

[Robot Man]

Is color touch now not considered resto? Or does it depend on the book and who submits it?

Amazing how things have changed since CGC came upon the hobby.

Money seems to make people forget ethics and bend the “rules” when enough of it is thrown around the right people.

A real shame when I hear anything being done to books like Church books. Like they aren’t beautiful enough? Isn’t this the whole point of a pedigree in the first place?

Either way, an astounding price for a comic book. Just when you think they can’t go any higher. Insane times…

[LDarkseid1]

On 4/13/2022 at 9:37 AM, G.A.tor said:

A little sleuthing. An 8.0 was removed from census. The church 8.0 serial no longer there, so had to be the church that upgraded to 8.5. Anyone could figure that out

That would involve me having to do more work then I'd prefer to do.

[jimjum12]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:25 AM, sfcityduck said:

That is a big premium that is all speculation until someone writes the check.

To assign the entire 20M to all the books you mentioned is a small premium that is all speculation. GOD BLESS.... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Nic8612]

On 4/13/2022 at 1:31 PM, Mr bla bla said:

A similar grade silver age key with the same CT as the Church Supe 1 would go straight into a purple restored holder (and would accordingly suffer a 90-95% loss of its identical blue label market value👍). Crazy but true ...

Exactly. A lot has changed since BlackRock took over. 

 

And none of it has been for the betterment of the hobby

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2022 at 8:50 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

I don't know Mr. Duck. Feels like money and less love that's driving prices now a days. But I agree, not sure 20 mil would be the mark for the Church Action 1. I definitely see a world where someone spends over 10 though, not even a question. Have to wonder how much that pool of buyers has grown the last couple years also. I doubt it's comic book lovers spending all these millions. Maybe just super wealthy investors or even corporations looking to get in, but who knows. It's not like anyone buying all these books are showing it off publicly anywhere. I have a hard time believing the same pool of buyers 5 years ago that might barely break a mil or not quite get there on these mega grails are the ones still buying them at over 2-3 mil every time. Just seems like the pool has gotten bigger.

Hariri is a super rich comic lover.  A lot of the key moves into the seven figures seem to have been made by comic lovers.  But, the pool must be getting smaller.

If you are looking for an investment, paying a record price for a comic book is, facially, a risky one.  The comic has no intrinsic value - the "investment" value is based on the notion that you can pass the hot potato on to the next guy.  That depends on the coolness of the comic and the depth of the pool.  That's a notion that will make professional investment entities more than a bit nervous.  Because if the market moves high enough that the buyer pool is only other investment entities, you lose the coolness factor.  The equation stops being love of the comic, coolness, and boasting rights, and shifts to "will there be a buyer in x years."  And as soon as the investment entities think a market has reached that point, it will likely lose all appeal to them.  If they want to sell, why would another sophisticated investment entity want to buy?

I think the market for the highest level of collectibles and fine art is driven by love, coolness, and boasting rights.  Wealthy individuals appear to drive prices more than investment entities.  And some of those wealthy individuals have an added incentive, building out a nice museum, which I don't think drives comic buyers or general investment entities..

[LDarkseid1]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:48 AM, sfcityduck said:

Hariri is a super rich comic lover.  A lot of the key moves into the seven figures seem to have been made by comic lovers.  But, the pool must be getting smaller.

If you are looking for an investment, paying a record price for a comic book is, facially, a risky one.  The comic has no intrinsic value - the "investment" value is based on the notion that you can pass the hot potato on to the next guy.  That depends on the coolness of the comic and the depth of the pool.  That's a notion that will make professional investment entities more than a bit nervous.  Because if the market moves high enough that the buyer pool is only other investment entities, you lose the coolness factor.  The equation stops being love of the comic, coolness, and boasting rights, and shifts to "will there be a buyer in x years."  And as soon as the investment entities think a market has reached that point, it will likely lose all appeal to them.  If they want to sell, why would another sophisticated investment entity want to buy?

I think the market for the highest level of collectibles and fine art is driven by love, coolness, and boasting rights.  Wealthy individuals appear to drive prices more than investment entities.  And some of those wealthy individuals have an added incentive, building out a nice museum, which I don't think drives comic buyers or general investment entities..

I just can't help but acknowledge it's been multi-million dollar sale after multi-million dollar sale lately. And I don't think anyone on here knows who's actually doing it, but please someone speak up if so. It's not Hariri. It's crypto money as far as I'm concerned. Market seems more geared towards investment minded people than passionate lovers of comics from my perspective. Yeah I just think the pool has gotten bigger. Video games, VHS tapes, sports cards, etc... Everything is about the almighty dollar right now.

[batman_fan]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:02 AM, G.A.tor said:

When it sold it was a cgc 8.0

simple answer. 

Rick, you do know you are spoiling all the conspiracy theory fun

Now back to the Superman 1, did anyone else hear they used alien technology found at the Roswell site to remove the color touch?

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:46 AM, jimjum12 said:

To assign the entire 20M to all the books you mentioned is a small premium that is all speculation. GOD BLESS.... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

More of an extrapolation than speculation.  We're talking about the top graded Action 1, Detective 27, Superman 1, and Batman 1, which all have comparables on less desirable copies that easily support the extrapolation. Top prices paid:

Action 1 8.5 - $3.25M (4th best)

Detective 27 7.0 - $1.5M (10th or 11th best)

Superman 1 8.5 - $5.3M (2nd or 3rd best)

Batman 1 9.4 - $2.2M (2nd or 3rd best)

That's a total of $12.25M for undercopies ranging from 11th best to 2nd best.  That's not a huge leap based on the data.  But, a leap from $5M for a single comic to $20M is a huge leap that I'm not prepared to predict would happen today.  But, you may be right. Time will tell.

[jimjum12]

On 4/13/2022 at 2:02 PM, sfcityduck said:

More of an extrapolation than speculation.  We're talking about the top graded Action 1, Detective 27, Superman 1, and Batman 1, which all have comparables on less desirable copies that easily support the extrapolation. Top prices paid:

Action 1 8.5 - $3.25M (4th best)

Detective 27 7.0 - $1.5M (10th or 11th best)

Superman 1 8.5 - $5.3M (2nd or 3rd best)

Batman 1 9.4 - $2.2M (2nd or 3rd best)

That's a total of $12.25M for undercopies ranging from 11th best to 2nd best.  That's not a huge leap based on the data.  But, a leap from $5M for a single comic to $20M is a huge leap that I'm not prepared to predict would happen today.  But, you may be right. Time will tell.

The Church Copy would be performing on another level. Just my opinion. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:54 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

I just can't help but acknowledge it's been multi-million dollar sale after multi-million dollar sale lately. And I don't think anyone on here knows who's actually doing it, but please someone speak up if so. It's not Hariri. It's crypto money as far as I'm concerned. Market seems more geared towards investment minded people than passionate lovers of comics from my perspective. Yeah I just think the pool has gotten bigger. Video games, VHS tapes, sports cards, etc... Everything is about the almighty dollar right now.

Some of (maybe all of) those markets (especially video games) appear to be manipulated.  I wonder about sports cards.  That market collapsed once.  Most of the big bucks are being paid for manufactured collectibles.  It appears to have more in common with beanie babies than comic books.  I was talking to a dealer of fine art who also deals in cards.  He's been buying multiples of rare Deshaun Watson rookies and now he's dumping them all to cash out while the getting's good - says he'll garner around $500K.  Watson is only 26 and he plays for the Browns - which finished third in their division.  That dealer is now looking for cheap cards he thinks might be the "next big thing."  One focus is Marvel "rookie cards."  You guys going to "invest" in those?  He's a smart guy, so he could be ahead of the curve.  

Edited April 13, 2022 by sfcityduck

[rsouxlja7]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:04 AM, sfcityduck said:

The dentist and his son must be happy.  The top four books he owns might just be $20M in value based on a sale like this.  

Which collection is his Superman 1 from? Anyone know an estimated grade? 

[LDarkseid1]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:08 AM, sfcityduck said:

Some of (maybe all of) those markets (especially video games) appear to be manipulated.  I wonder about sports cards.  That market collapsed once.  Most of the big bucks are being paid for manufactured collectibles.  It appears to have more in common with beanie babies than comic books.  I was talking to a dealer of fine art who also deals in cards.  He's been buying multiples of rookies Deshaun Watson rookies and now he's dumping them all to cash out while the getting's good - says he'll garner around $500K.  Watson is only 26 and he plays for the Browns - which finished third in their division.  That dealer is now looking for cheap cards he thinks might be the "next big thing."  One focus is Marvel "rookie cards."  You guys going to "invest" in those?

I only buy comics, but I can't speak for others lol.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:10 AM, rsouxlja7 said:

Which collection is his Superman 1 from? Anyone know an estimated grade? 

It's not a pedigree.  He side by sided the MH with the copy he has and his copy was better.  That guy has proven to be the most astute buyer of high grade comics ever, and it is clearly out of love as he's not sold any of the top books without an upgrade.  

[jimjum12]

On 4/13/2022 at 2:19 PM, sfcityduck said:

It's not a pedigree.  He side by sided the MH with the copy he has and his copy was better.  That guy has proven to be the most astute buyer of high grade comics ever, and it is clearly out of love as he's not sold any of the top books without an upgrade.  

That's why I think his ACI might garner 20 .... it has legendary status in the hobby. It's THE book. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[fishbone]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:50 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

I don't know Mr. Duck. Feels like money and less love that's driving prices now a days. But I agree, not sure 20 mil would be the mark for the Church Action 1. I definitely see a world where someone spends over 10 though, not even a question. Have to wonder how much that pool of buyers has grown the last couple years also. I doubt it's comic book lovers spending all these millions. Maybe just super wealthy investors or even corporations looking to get in, but who knows. It's not like anyone buying all these books are showing it off publicly anywhere. I have a hard time believing the same pool of buyers 5 years ago that might barely break a mil or not quite get there on these mega grails are the ones still buying them at over 2-3 mil every time. Just seems like the pool has gotten bigger.

I have no problem imaging a comic-book lover who happens to have multi-millions