Heritage September 2022 comic and art auction 3 3

[Rick2you2]

On 9/17/2022 at 11:57 AM, jjonahjameson11 said:

iIRC, you may have forgotten to factor in the plethora of Anderson artwork that flooded the market shortly after his death.

I just recorded what was on Heritage. He died in Oct., 2015.

[jjonahjameson11]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:02 PM, Rick2you2 said:

I just recorded what was on Heritage. He died in Oct., 2015.

Search for “from the collection of Murphy Anderson”…way too many results to list here

[Rick2you2]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:05 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Search for “from the collection of Murphy Anderson”…way too many results to list here

Look, just as a point of comparison, a Byrne/Austin X-Men page, with 5 panels went for $2,477.50 on October 12, 2002. A different Byrne/Austin page, 7 panels, went for $36,000 on Sept. 9, 2022. That about 14 times more than the price in 2002. Yet, depending on your view, the Murphy Hawkman page did anything from not keeping up with inflation to 2-3 times higher.  And it's a lot easier for a piece to climb higher at a low base than a high base. 

So, why do we keep talking about "the market" instead of the submarkets for different types of OA?  

[jjonahjameson11]

On 9/17/2022 at 1:53 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Look, just as a point of comparison, a Byrne/Austin X-Men page, with 5 panels went for $2,477.50 on October 12, 2002. A different Byrne/Austin page, 7 panels, went for $36,000 on Sept. 9, 2022. That about 14 times more than the price in 2002. Yet, depending on your view, the Murphy Hawkman page did anything from not keeping up with inflation to 2-3 times higher.  And it's a lot easier for a piece to climb higher at a low base than a high base. 

So, why do we keep talking about "the market" instead of the submarkets for different types of OA?  

You are so confusing that it’s dizzying trying to understand your point.

firstly, original art is a one of a kind item.  Trying to use the sale of a Byrne Xmen page from 2002 with the sale of a different Byrne Xmen page that sold in 2022 for 14x the 2002 page is folly.

but then to say that an Anderson Hawkman page, which didn’t even keep up with inflation during this same period will climb higher (assume you meant to say it will increase in price by x times faster than the Byrne Xmen) is ludicrous.

the Byrne Xmen pages will always be in demand, with fierce competition driving prices ever higher.

By comparison, not so much for Anderson Hawkman pages

[artdealer]

On 9/17/2022 at 2:24 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

You are so confusing that it’s dizzying trying to understand your point.

firstly, original art is a one of a kind item.  Trying to use the sale of a Byrne Xmen page from 2002 with the sale of a different Byrne Xmen page that sold in 2022 for 14x the 2002 page is folly.

but then to say that an Anderson Hawkman page, which didn’t even keep up with inflation during this same period will climb higher (assume you meant to say it will increase in price by x times faster than the Byrne Xmen) is ludicrous.

the Byrne Xmen pages will always be in demand, with fierce competition driving prices ever higher.

By comparison, not so much for Anderson Hawkman pages

And, unfortunately, Silver Age and Bronze Marvel art will always sell for more than Silver Age and Bronze DC art

[Grant Turner]

On 9/17/2022 at 4:25 PM, artdealer said:

And, unfortunately, Silver Age and Bronze Marvel art will always sell for more than Silver Age and Bronze DC art

Yes!
It’s one thing to say Silver Age Hawkman pages are stagnant, but looking at Marvel pages, they’re still going strong.

Don Heck early Marvel pages, for example, are seeing huge gains

[Rick2you2]

On 9/17/2022 at 2:24 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

You are so confusing that it’s dizzying trying to understand your point.

firstly, original art is a one of a kind item.  Trying to use the sale of a Byrne Xmen page from 2002 with the sale of a different Byrne Xmen page that sold in 2022 for 14x the 2002 page is folly.

but then to say that an Anderson Hawkman page, which didn’t even keep up with inflation during this same period will climb higher (assume you meant to say it will increase in price by x times faster than the Byrne Xmen) is ludicrous.

the Byrne Xmen pages will always be in demand, with fierce competition driving prices ever higher.

By comparison, not so much for Anderson Hawkman pages

I will try to make this simple. It was intended as a simple point. I am simply saying that we ought not be referring to the “market”, but instead think about the “markets”. Much like the stock market isn’t really a single market but lots of different submarkets. They may broadly go up or down, but different sections move differently. I, for one, would love to see a lot more attention to those different submarkets in OA.

Similarly, the Byrne “submarket” will invariably sell for more—I am fine with that. I was just trying to use it as a comparison to Anderson as a jumping off point, which I hope I made more clearly by referring to the stock market.

My father used to say that if everyone were average, we would all have one teat and one ball. That’s as good a way as any to explain why I don’t like referring to the “OA market.”
 

 

[RBerman]

Watching the anime/manga auction today, I saw a new bid type. Usually there's just "internet" and "Heritage Live" but today I also saw "floor." What does that mean? Is it the opposite of a chandelier bid? I guess "Heritage Live" bid refers to the use of the Heritage web site's live feed section. What is "internet" apart from that?

[lb jefferies]

On 9/23/2022 at 10:50 AM, RBerman said:

Watching the anime/manga auction today, I saw a new bid type. Usually there's just "internet" and "Heritage Live" but today I also saw "floor." What does that mean? Is it the opposite of a chandelier bid? I guess "Heritage Live" bid refers to the use of the Heritage web site's live feed section. What is "internet" apart from that?

It means a bidder is right there in the room with the auctioneer.

[RBerman]

On 9/23/2022 at 12:54 PM, lb jefferies said:

It means a bidder is right there in the room with the auctioneer.

I thought it might. I'm surprised never to have seen that before now. So what does "internet but not Heritage Live" mean? Where do the phone bidders fall?

[Bronty]

On 9/17/2022 at 8:01 PM, Rick2you2 said:

I will try to make this simple. It was intended as a simple point. I am simply saying that we ought not be referring to the “market”, but instead think about the “markets”. Much like the stock market isn’t really a single market but lots of different submarkets. They may broadly go up or down, but different sections move differently. I, for one, would love to see a lot more attention to those different submarkets in OA.

Similarly, the Byrne “submarket” will invariably sell for more—I am fine with that. I was just trying to use it as a comparison to Anderson as a jumping off point, which I hope I made more clearly by referring to the stock market.

My father used to say that if everyone were average, we would all have one teat and one ball. That’s as good a way as any to explain why I don’t like referring to the “OA market.”
 

 

Its just shorthand.

You're right that getting into the submarket info provides better data, but the problem with getting into submarkets is that they are essentially infinite, and no one has their finger on the pulse of all of them.   

We can have a general discussion on the overall market, or we can have a specific discussion on a specific submarket.   Those are both perfectly valid options.    Sure, we have to be careful about what conclusions we draw from what discussions, but its probably not realistic to think that we are going to have general discussions with specific data as the norm.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Bronty

[Rick2you2]

On 9/23/2022 at 4:34 PM, Bronty said:

Its just shorthand.

You're right that getting into the submarket info provides better data, but the problem with getting into submarkets is that they are essentially infinite, and no one has their finger on the pulse of all of them.   

We can have a general discussion on the overall market, or we can have a specific discussion on a specific submarket.   Those are both perfectly valid options.    Sure, we have to be careful about what conclusions we draw from what discussions, but its probably not realistic to think that we are going to have general discussions with specific data as the norm.

Thank you. Unlike what I assume are a fair number of people here, I usually buy things that are pretty cold and will stay that way. So discussions on prices being generally strong don’t often affect my collecting reality. But, it would sure be nice to hear about those submarkets so I don’t choke on a price the next time Albert posts something (and then see a comparable page go for even more on HA). 

[delekkerste]

On 9/23/2022 at 1:50 PM, RBerman said:

Watching the anime/manga auction today, I saw a new bid type. Usually there's just "internet" and "Heritage Live" but today I also saw "floor." What does that mean? Is it the opposite of a chandelier bid? I guess "Heritage Live" bid refers to the use of the Heritage web site's live feed section. What is "internet" apart from that?

Internet means a bid submitted online prior to the live session and not using the Heritage Live system of proxy bids.