C2E2 Variant Drama 25 25

[Motor City Rob]

On 8/23/2022 at 7:43 AM, MGH said:

I'm far from convinced it was a mistake beyond mistaking how   the response to this poor decision making process would be and how much exposure it would attract

 

Yes, maybe the motive behind changing their stance is not what we would have wanted, but CGC definitely knows they made a mistake. 

[Cman429]

On 8/23/2022 at 1:57 AM, MGH said:

Is this a one off?   Or is this common practice where only the exterior cover  of a modern is used to determine  grade

Have you ever gotten one of those blank cover variants graded? They almost all come back 9.8 except a very few outliers. Blank sketch variants have been a thing for 5-6 years now so no, this is not new. CGC has always seemed clear that the outer most thing is the “cover” and everything in between is graded as pages. 

Anyway I guess some people will always complain or not be satisfied. CGC definitely f-ed up but it could be worse, like say losing 350 books into thin air. At the end of the day all I wanted was them to adhere tp THEIR own standards and slap this ridiculous frankenbook with the GREEN weenie it deserved. Now that they’re doing the right thing I’m satisfied with their decision, late as it may be. 

Oh to be a fly on the wall for the people who don’t read these boards. When they get their precious “investment” back with that ugly green label it’s going to be glorious. Hopefully the real villains (Black Flag) suffer the repercussions they deserve. 

[troydivision1]

On 8/22/2022 at 9:40 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I keep seeing this mentioned but do you expect cgc to use their lawyer to declassify what they've already certified?  Forcing black flag or the parties involved to be refunded? Or just say, you paid for this but we changed our minds and here are your slabbing fees back, when they were already graded when available for sale?

Cause that is what it would take to do what your asking...

Very true points.
What CGC could / should do is remove the original Black Flag submitted acetate books from the census.
(all three series x 10 copies each...30 total books)
Make it so they can't be added to a registry.
IF searched it can bring up a special message about resubmitting for the 'corrected' (Qualified) label or Signature Series Qualified label.

[fingfangfoom]

Glad to see the update, know that CGC understands the error they made and will be following proper grading procedure and assign these type of books the Qualified label.

I don't want to travel down the road of how such high numerical grades were achieved, I trust the GLOD will do the job of setting evaluations where they should be regardless of grade assigned.

 

[JC25427N]

On 8/23/2022 at 7:21 AM, Motor City Rob said:

I think you're over-analyzing. CGC is saying the book is Qualified. Also, any artist that signs the book (witnessed by CGC) will result in a SS Qualified label. If no signature, just a green Qualified label. I think it's that simple. 

I wasn't making any analysis on the statement (except for the last line which was mostly rhetorical), I was just saying the way it was written sounded really awkward because of how it seemed like the main message of the announcement was about the books in relation to the signature series. The announcement could have just been "These books will no longer be graded as universal, all after-market acetate variants will now receive the Qualified label" and the rest of that announcement would have been implied

Edited August 23, 2022 by JC25427N

[Mike's Rack]

What a mess show.  

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 8/23/2022 at 12:07 AM, Monstertruck97 said:

With all due respect in regards to Stan Lee, that decision is fact wise. The yellow label program and witnessing the signed items work.

 

 

I agree! My point was that I agreed with this standard.  What I was stressing was that CGC held to a very high and good standard even with a signature that could be verified easily by professional autograph examiners. 

So why would they want to set up such a high and positive standard only to undermine it? - This was what I was getting at.

Edited August 23, 2022 by DoctorWyoming1

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 8/23/2022 at 12:09 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Honestly, I think their Signature Series policy is how it should be, and one of the few policies I agree with.

Me too. I agree with it. And what I was trying to say was: They set a high bar, why limbo under it at the very next office party?

Edited August 23, 2022 by DoctorWyoming1

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 8/23/2022 at 8:13 AM, Troy.Division said:

Very true points.
What CGC could / should do is remove the original Black Flag submitted acetate books from the census.
(all three series x 10 copies each...30 total books)
Make it so they can't be added to a registry.
IF searched it can bring up a special message about resubmitting for the 'corrected' (Qualified) label or Signature Series Qualified label.

Agreed. Honestly, not doing this is an implicit admission that they aren't really following their own rules.

Edited August 23, 2022 by DoctorWyoming1

[jcjames]

On 8/23/2022 at 1:53 AM, Coverless 9.8 said:

It sounds as though consumers are as satisfied as they're going to be, so the Head Grading Team can get back to work on delivering 9.9's and 10.0's to the right people!  Influencers can maintain their place at the front of the line for convention exclusives, preferably out of sight of those not privileged!  It'll feel good to get back to business as usual!  

The ridiculous abundance of 9.9s and 10s was never addressed.

They explained the label-changes, but not the grades. 

It was only hinted at and so we, the comicbook-collecting community (clearly not "prominent members" nor "influencers"), is left with the inference that is obvious from the evidence - CGC was paid in advance to provide extraordinary grades for these Frankenbooks and ignored their own grading standards to overlook defects to the original books, OR... they sideways-admitted that they really don't look inside modern books when grading.  

CGC made a step in the right direction, now they need to take the next (and hopefully last) step in the right direction as well. 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by jcjames

[AmazingComics413]

My LCS no longer buys or sells CGC slabbed books after this 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 8/23/2022 at 10:15 AM, AmazingComics413 said:

My LCS no longer buys or sells CGC slabbed books after this 

I’ve found myself disappointed in CGC’s grading, and have stopped buying slabs altogether for resale.  If I’m unhappy with the assigned grades, I assume my customers would be too.

I prefer to sell raw, and grade them myself. 

[MGH]

On 8/23/2022 at 9:43 PM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

Me too. I agree with it. And what I was trying to say was: They set a high bar, why limbo under it at the very next office party?

But do they honour it to the letter?    Or are favours granted?  

SS is not a recorded process where we can say watch a video of every signature being created and how it s slabbed ..  The whole SS Simply relies that the customer trusts that the right thing has been done and the rules have been followed 

 

.. Like trusting that cgc,  as an impartial grading company,  will only certify legitimate books per their grading  standards at all  times 

[CJ Design]

[jaybuck43]

On 8/23/2022 at 10:03 AM, jcjames said:

The ridiculous abundance of 9.9s and 10s was never addressed.

They explained the label-changes, but not the grades. 

It was only hinted at and so we, the comicbook-collecting community (clearly not "prominent members" nor "influencers"), is left with the inference that is obvious from the evidence - CGC was paid in advance to provide extraordinary grades for these Frankenbooks and ignored their own grading standards to overlook defects to the original books, OR... they sideways-admitted that they really don't look inside modern books when grading.  

CGC made a step in the right direction, now they need to take the next (and hopefully last) step in the right direction as well. 

 

In reading into what Mike said, I think they kind of did (without coming out and explaining it).  They treated the Acetate as the cover and the cover as "interior pages".  The grade has always been dependent on the cover and spine, not the interior pages.  Once the corners and cover are graded, they then just count the interior pages and make a page color determination.  So a dinged cover gets covered in 3 mil acetate which is going to be perfect or near perfect, and suddenly the corners and spine are perfect and you see a proliferation of high grades.  

[theCapraAegagrus]

The freaking Drizzle be here, yo.

[JC25427N]

On 8/23/2022 at 10:52 AM, jaybuck43 said:

In reading into what Mike said, I think they kind of did (without coming out and explaining it).  They treated the Acetate as the cover and the cover as "interior pages".  The grade has always been dependent on the cover and spine, not the interior pages.  Once the corners and cover are graded, they then just count the interior pages and make a page color determination.  So a dinged cover gets covered in 3 mil acetate which is going to be perfect or near perfect, and suddenly the corners and spine are perfect and you see a proliferation of high grades.  

Is this true? I always thought the interior pages did have some impact on the grade but just carried less weight. 

If I take a 9.8 book, and take one of the interior pages and just start creasing and folding it, it would remain a 9.8?

Not being sarcastic, genuinely asking

[Superman2006]

On 8/23/2022 at 10:52 AM, jaybuck43 said:

On 8/23/2022 at 10:03 AM, jcjames said:

The ridiculous abundance of 9.9s and 10s was never addressed.

They explained the label-changes, but not the grades. 

It was only hinted at and so we, the comicbook-collecting community (clearly not "prominent members" nor "influencers"), is left with the inference that is obvious from the evidence - CGC was paid in advance to provide extraordinary grades for these Frankenbooks and ignored their own grading standards to overlook defects to the original books, OR... they sideways-admitted that they really don't look inside modern books when grading.  

CGC made a step in the right direction, now they need to take the next (and hopefully last) step in the right direction as well. 

 

In reading into what Mike said, I think they kind of did (without coming out and explaining it).  They treated the Acetate as the cover and the cover as "interior pages".  The grade has always been dependent on the cover and spine, not the interior pages.  Once the corners and cover are graded, they then just count the interior pages and make a page color determination.  So a dinged cover gets covered in 3 mil acetate which is going to be perfect or near perfect, and suddenly the corners and spine are perfect and you see a proliferation of high grades.  

You state that "The grade has always been dependent on the cover and spine, not the interior pages."

I would change that to "The grade has always been more dependent on the cover and spine, than on the interior pages." As an example, if all interior pages had a noticeable defect, such as a 3 inch tear on some or all pages, or other noticeable issues, such as stains that CGC noticed when doing a page count, then that would presumably impact the overall grade.

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 8/23/2022 at 10:41 AM, MGH said:

But do they honour it to the letter?    Or are favours granted?  

We have good reasons to doubt it, of course, but it's a high standard that one can respect. It's also easy to follow: either there's a witness or you don't get a yellow label. 

In business, they call it an "aspirational goal", like giving service with a smile, or your burger is free.

Quote

SS is not a recorded process where we can say watch a video of every signature being created and how it s slabbed ..  The whole SS Simply relies that the customer trusts that the right thing has been done and the rules have been followed .. Like trusting that cgc,  as an impartial grading company,  will only certify legitimate books per their grading  standards at all  times 

And this is precisely why the current debacle hits so hard. And it's why I question why a company with a professed high standard like requiring the witnessing of all signatures,would undermine their credibility with such a trivial issue like acetate covers for one reprint.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 8/23/2022 at 10:59 AM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

We have good reasons to doubt it, of course, but it's a high standard that one can respect. It's also easy to follow: either there's a witness or you don't get a yellow label. 

In business, they call it an "aspirational goal", like giving service with a smile, or your burger is free.

And this is precisely why the current debacle hits so hard. And it's why I question why a company with a professed high standard like requiring the witnessing of all signatures,would undermine their credibility with such a trivial issue like acetate covers for one reprint.

Personally, I think SS witnesses should be directly employed by CGC.  It’s a chink in the armour of the SS program to permit  those that witness signatures....to also sell those SS books.