C2E2 Variant Drama 24 24

[DiamondCityComics]

On 8/28/2022 at 7:47 PM, manetteska said:

That’s what I thought you were referencing. Another “con exclusive” and after all of this still preferential treatment, con-goers getting left out, and people paying too much from the fam. 

I noticed the Whatnot sellers had multiples of that Batman book.  They were 30 bucks if you were able to get one.  

[CJ Design]

On 8/28/2022 at 6:47 PM, manetteska said:

That’s what I thought you were referencing. Another “con exclusive” and after all of this still preferential treatment, con-goers getting left out, and people paying too much from the fam. 

 

[Jaydee]

Circus hit Toronto

[Sigur Ros]

On 8/29/2022 at 12:55 AM, Jaydee said:

Circus hit Toronto

$100 says they're wearing Whatnot underwear.  Or panties.

[DR.X]

On 8/28/2022 at 11:55 PM, Jaydee said:

Circus hit Toronto

Keep those people away from me. Far away from me.

[midwestfourcolors]

On 8/29/2022 at 7:25 AM, DR.X said:

Keep those people away from me. Far away from me.

Yeah, everyone one of them has that "if you shake their hand you better count your fingers" vibe.

[Sigur Ros]

On 8/28/2022 at 2:39 PM, DiamondCityComics said:

 

Oh look... It's the guy who walked up to the Black Flag table and left with a short box or 2 of the acetates then walked over to the Whatnot booth to start selling them....while fans stood in line and watched.  While being told 1 per person.

[Qalyar]

So, I was late the party on this nonsense because I was out of the country for a bit, but...

Obviously, there's some downright skeevy stuff going on with purchase limits being ignored for "favored" people and immediate resale, all of which screams "market manipulation" in a large, bold-faced font. Let's ignore that for a second, and just consider the idea of a "re-publisher" taking an existing book and stapling a new cover over the existing one. That's new (I think), but it's not entirely without precedent. So far as I know, there have been at least two other rounds of after-market cover manipulation. CGC hasn't handled them all the same way, and I'm curious what the "right" answer should be:

• New Dimension Comics bought a big pile of new old stock copies of various issues Eclipse Comics' Miracleman after Eclipse imploded. Deeming them "Archive Editions", New Dimension stamped a Miracleman head on the cover in variously-colored foil (silver, gold, blue, and red exist; some in extremely limited numbers). CGC appears to grade these as Foil Edition; for example, here's the listing for #23, including the "Platinum Foil Edition". As far as I can tell, these are eligible for blue labels if there's nothing else that would alter that; a lot of them are also signed, so it's tough to know for sure what's up with the green label slabs.
• Wizard, back when they were doing co-published #0s and #1/2s and various shenanigans, had a great idea. They would sell creator-signed books with a little hologram stamp added to the cover to indicate authenticity and marked them as "Wizard Authentic Editions". As an example, here's Rising Stars #0's census. As far as I know, all CGC-graded Wizard Authentic Editions are green label books ... but because they are also all unwitnessed signed copies, that's the best they could be. Regardless, CGC does offer these their own label designation. Although it's worth noting that they've been deemed "non-competitive" for Registry purposes. So... /shrug?
• And then, of course, we have the C2E2 Acetategate kerfluffle, where a "republisher" stapled a new cover on the book and declared it a new product.

I feel like the New Dimensions foils are actually a lot similar to the C2E2 books except for the shady market manipulation side plot. And, at least initially, they both were blue-label eligible. The C2E2 tomfoolery probably won't be the last time a third party company uses existing books they didn't originally produce or contract for in order to manufacture a new collectible. Obviously, individual collectors can care, or not, as they desire. But what do we want CGC to do with these sorts of things?

Edited August 29, 2022 by Qalyar
formatting went spweee!

[midwestfourcolors]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:33 PM, Qalyar said:

 

I feel like the New Dimensions foils are actually a lot similar to the C2E2 books except for the shady market manipulation side plot. And, at least initially, they both were blue-label eligible. The C2E2 tomfoolery probably won't be the last time a third party company uses existing books they didn't originally produce or contract for in order to manufacture a new collectible. Obviously, individual collectors can care, or not, as they desire. But what do we want CGC to do with these sorts of things?

I see the similarity, but i think the difference is that new dimension made the books available to retailers through traditional distribution channels (diamond...was capital city still around?), so they are considered more traditionally "published"(?) u guess. Also they had been accepted variant products for years before CGC existed, so CGC didnt so much have to make a judgment on them, as they were already accepted by the hobby.

[Qalyar]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:39 PM, midwestfourcolors said:

I see the similarity, but i think the difference is that new dimension made the books available to retailers through traditional distribution channels (diamond...was capital city still around?), so they are considered more traditionally "published"(?) u guess. Also they had been accepted variant products for years before CGC existed, so CGC didnt so much have to make a judgment on them, as they were already accepted by the hobby.

Did New Dimension market those via Diamond? I ... honestly couldn't remember. I certainly ignored them at the time, regardless of how they were marketed. Regardless, we certainly don't require books to have gone through traditional distribution channels to be "valid" variants or whathaveyou; especially these days, there's quite a few variants that are (or are effectively) web sale exclusives. Certainly though, I'll agree that the New Dimension Miracleman foils have the benefit of being 90s creations rather than something happening now, but that really just underscores the need to come up with a consistent approach for this sort of thing.

If I bought a bunch of copies of a book -- does it matter what book, even? -- and, under the auspices of the comic store I used to manage, reissued them with a cool foil stamp on the cover, would that warrant consideration as a new "variant"? If so, are they blue-label eligible? Would it matter if I got Diamond to act as an intermediary for my sales?

[jsilverjanet]

On 8/29/2022 at 3:23 PM, Qalyar said:

Did New Dimension market those via Diamond? I ... honestly couldn't remember. I certainly ignored them at the time, regardless of how they were marketed. Regardless, we certainly don't require books to have gone through traditional distribution channels to be "valid" variants or whathaveyou; especially these days, there's quite a few variants that are (or are effectively) web sale exclusives. Certainly though, I'll agree that the New Dimension Miracleman foils have the benefit of being 90s creations rather than something happening now, but that really just underscores the need to come up with a consistent approach for this sort of thing.

If I bought a bunch of copies of a book -- does it matter what book, even? -- and, under the auspices of the comic store I used to manage, reissued them with a cool foil stamp on the cover, would that warrant consideration as a new "variant"? If so, are they blue-label eligible? Would it matter if I got Diamond to act as an intermediary for my sales?

i don't believe Diamond distributed the books

the books are after published enhancements by a retailer not a publisher

[Qalyar]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:42 PM, jsilverjanet said:

i don't believe Diamond distributed the books

the books are after published enhancements by a retailer not a publisher

Diamond makes some bad decisions some times, so I wasn't sure if ND had worked something out.

Because otherwise, I really feel like the ND foils are pretty much the same sort of thing as the C2E2 books. A retailer modified existing comics and marketed them as exclusive variants. When it comes down to it, that's what happened in both cases, right? I know that CGC gave at least some ND foils a blue label, but I wonder if they would make the same decision now if they had that choice to do over again. Honestly, I think any of this sort of aftermarket customization ought to be in a green label; my only real question is how "legitimate" does such a thing have to be in order to earn a label variant. Surely, I can't just go foil stamping books willy-nilly and get them encapsulated as green-label "Qalyar Special Edition" books, right?

[mattn792]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:46 PM, Qalyar said:

Diamond makes some bad decisions some times, so I wasn't sure if ND had worked something out.

Because otherwise, I really feel like the ND foils are pretty much the same sort of thing as the C2E2 books. A retailer modified existing comics and marketed them as exclusive variants. When it comes down to it, that's what happened in both cases, right? I know that CGC gave at least some ND foils a blue label, but I wonder if they would make the same decision now if they had that choice to do over again. Honestly, I think any of this sort of aftermarket customization ought to be in a green label; my only real question is how "legitimate" does such a thing have to be in order to earn a label variant. Surely, I can't just go foil stamping books willy-nilly and get them encapsulated as green-label "Qalyar Special Edition" books, right?

Depends, how big is your wallet?

[jsilverjanet]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:46 PM, Qalyar said:

Diamond makes some bad decisions some times, so I wasn't sure if ND had worked something out.

Because otherwise, I really feel like the ND foils are pretty much the same sort of thing as the C2E2 books. A retailer modified existing comics and marketed them as exclusive variants. When it comes down to it, that's what happened in both cases, right? I know that CGC gave at least some ND foils a blue label, but I wonder if they would make the same decision now if they had that choice to do over again. Honestly, I think any of this sort of aftermarket customization ought to be in a green label; my only real question is how "legitimate" does such a thing have to be in order to earn a label variant. Surely, I can't just go foil stamping books willy-nilly and get them encapsulated as green-label "Qalyar Special Edition" books, right?

I agree with you as I'm sure others do as well

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:46 PM, Qalyar said:

Diamond makes some bad decisions some times, so I wasn't sure if ND had worked something out.

Because otherwise, I really feel like the ND foils are pretty much the same sort of thing as the C2E2 books. A retailer modified existing comics and marketed them as exclusive variants. When it comes down to it, that's what happened in both cases, right? I know that CGC gave at least some ND foils a blue label, but I wonder if they would make the same decision now if they had that choice to do over again. Honestly, I think any of this sort of aftermarket customization ought to be in a green label; my only real question is how "legitimate" does such a thing have to be in order to earn a label variant. Surely, I can't just go foil stamping books willy-nilly and get them encapsulated as green-label "Qalyar Special Edition" books, right?

No you'd have to be artist in said comic and also do art for whatever cover you put on it.

Just wanted to clarify cause it has been understated.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:59 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

No you'd have to be artist in said comic and also do art for whatever cover you put on it.

Just wanted to clarify cause it has been understated.

Which makes sense why it could be a yellow label, but that too got shot down in flames for whatever reason, which I think was the staples, good reason if the grade doesn't reflect

[Buzzetta]

I still have a somewhat related question based on what is going on with the competition and a comics publisher. 

https://www.counterpointcomics.com/

I have seen clarification that Counterpoint comics is going to print off more copies of non-limited variants to accommodate the loss due to negligence of the competition in losing 300+ books.   Counterpoint comics is an indie publisher, but CGC has graded these books before.  Image attached to familiarize those who are unaware of what they do.

How would CGC treat the issue of Counterpoint rolling the presses months after an original printing run creating or continuing the print run of a comic book where the original printing is indistinguishable from subsequent printings? 

Because at that point you have a publisher monkeying around with print runs.

I really do not think anyone has ever seen anything like this before.  Any time there was a lengthy interruption between printings the published material carried some type of indication that it was not from the original print run. 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Buzzetta

[ADAMANTIUM]

It's almost like people are trying to ruin their gravy train. I'm not sure that these are big picture folk. 

 

[JC25427N]

On 8/29/2022 at 6:04 PM, Buzzetta said:

I still have a somewhat related question based on what is going on with the competition and a comics publisher. 

https://www.counterpointcomics.com/

I have seen clarification that Counterpoint comics is going to print off more copies of non-limited variants to accommodate the loss due to negligence of the competition in losing 300+ books.   Counterpoint comics is an indie publisher, but CGC has graded these books before.  Image attached to familiarize those who are unaware of what they do.

How would CGC treat the issue of Counterpoint rolling the presses months after an original printing run creating or continuing the print run of a comic book where the original printing is indistinguishable from subsequent printings? 

Because at that point you have a publisher monkeying around with print runs.

I really do not think anyone has ever seen anything like this before.  Any time there was a lengthy interruption between printings the published material carried some type of indication that it was not from the original print run. 

How CGC would handle it is a moot issue since the printed replacements are immediately being sent to the competitor for grading, and they stated that if the original lost books are ever found they would be destroyed. I think this is a very special one-off case and shouldn't be used to generalize, that's why as you said no one has ever seen anything like this before. A major grading company has never lost so many submissions with exclusives that a vendor could actually reach out and get indistinguishable replacements for (The books in question are mostly those that have the edition # printed on them like 24/50, 25/50, etc, so they're reprinting the edition numbers that were lost by the competitor)

But I guess just to go along with it, if they truly made it so its indistinguishable from the original print then what could they (CGC) do? It's like the pressing argument, even if pressing was considered purple-label restoration to CGC, its not detectable (if done correctly at least) unless its admitted to. The "2nd printing" would be undetectable unless someone told you it was the 2nd printing.

Edited August 29, 2022 by JC25427N
clarity

[Gaard]

On 8/29/2022 at 6:17 PM, JC25427N said:

How CGC would handle it is a moot issue since the printed replacements are immediately being sent to the competitor for grading, and they stated that if the original lost books are ever found they would be destroyed. I think this is a very special one-off case and shouldn't be used to generalize, that's why as you said no one has ever seen anything like this before. A major grading company has never lost so many submissions with exclusives that a vendor could actually reach out and get indistinguishable replacements for (The books in question are mostly those that have the edition # printed on them like 24/50, 25/50, etc, so they're reprinting the edition numbers that were lost by the competitor)

But I guess just to go along with it, if they truly made it so its indistinguishable from the original print then what could they do? It's like the pressing argument, even if pressing was considered purple-label restoration to CGC, its not detectable (if done correctly at least) unless its admitted to. The "2nd printing" would be undetectable unless someone told you it was. 

I'm not to thrilled with this. I don't really dabble with Moderns too much, but this just seems wrong. Oh well, I guess it's all about the Benjamins these days