NJ Art Con August 28th 3 3

[kbmcvay]

On 9/1/2022 at 6:10 PM, Rick2you2 said:

The OP didn't say it. I did. And actually, saying it is something a reasonably smart person would say. Since the piece had already been purchased, offering it at a higher price than before, when it wasn't sold, instead of a lower price because it is old stock, is counter-intuitive. When stock sits around, stores lower their prices to increase their cash flow. They don't hold it on the theory that newer, say, refrigerators will cost more. Moreover, admitting to raising prices is essentially telling the potential buyer: "I see my inabiltiy to move this piece as an opportunity to increase my profit margin at your expense." As to whether it is disprovable, how? Go to the Wayback Machine and try to find it? Who would bother?

You might say to yourself: "Ah, but art is an investment, not a refrigerator." Well if have that kind of free money, and are so confident it will sell, go ahead, raise the prices, I won't buy it. And neither did any other real person. It's now with a different dealer, where it sits in all its glory, until Heritage needs to be contacted in a few years.

As for me: "I don't wanna be a pinhead no more, I just met a nurse that I could go for."

I pretty much said it too based on what the OP wrote. Seemed obvious to me. My first experience with Mr. Mustache was around 2005 at the Baltimore Comic Con where he was bragging about buying the Fawcett Crowley collection for $3 million. My opinion of him is he is an arrogant, smarmy person who is ethically challenged.

 

On 9/1/2022 at 3:29 PM, delekkerste said:

100%

The notion that anyone would claim to never raise prices from where they first offered something after buying it for resale makes so little sense that I'd definitely want to hear Bechara's side of the story before jumping to any conclusions. Seems to me like this is far more likely a case of him misspeaking, something being taken out of context, and/or some other kind of miscommunication. I mean, even if he said it, I would bet he didn't mean it quite like the OP thinks he meant it. 

People can think whatever they want of Bechara, but, one thing he isn't is stupid. The Bechara I know would never say something so easily and immediately disprovable by anyone with an IQ over 60 with the intention of getting one over on someone. Unless he thought that person actually had an IQ under 60, which I don't think would apply to anyone here...  

Plenty of smart people are poor and plenty of rich people are dumb. Burkey says he went to West Point (I have no reason to believe this isn't true) so he must be pretty smart. That didn't stop him from bragging about ripping people off on this very board with his shill bid antics. This was incredibly stupid on his part. Arrogant people say stupid stuff all the time regardless of how smart or dumb they are. Both Burkey and Mr. Mustache fall into this category.

As far as raising prices goes Bechera does it all the time. He has a bunch of Kirby FF pages that he has pumped up the price on multiple times. When I pulled the trigger and got one I didn't buy it from him even though he has plenty. He says on his website all prices are firm and if somebody wants to pay a 40%-100% markup on a price from a few months ago they can be my guest. I don't like getting fleeced by a guy who treats people like trash when they ask him a question at a con.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by kbmcvay

[vodou]

[Rick2you2]

On 9/1/2022 at 7:44 PM, Bill C said:

One thing is for sure; you have good taste in music.

Beat on the brat, beat on the brat, beat on the rat with a baseball bat, oh yea, o o yea.

[grapeape]

On 8/26/2022 at 4:34 AM, kbmcvay said:

Like always I think it depends on the dealer. Albert and Anthony will probably be willing to make a deal like they always have in my years of dealing with them. Bechara is basically a Donnely Brother with a mustache so his pricing will be firm.

In the sixties a fifth Beatle. Today a third Donnelly? Good grief!!!

[AnkurJ]

On 9/1/2022 at 8:03 PM, kbmcvay said:

I don't like getting fleeced by a guy who treats people like trash when they ask him a question at a con.

Here is an interesting comment. The reality is that many big dealers treat customers like trash, and it is fully acceptable. Why? Because demand far exceeds supply. Honestly speaking, if someone treats me like that, I bite right back. There is no excuse for it.

And lets be honest.  We are guilty of going back to to those dealers when they have something we want. If it bothered enough people that their business was impacted, this type of behavior would stop across the board.

[Unstoppablejayd]

On 9/1/2022 at 11:56 PM, AnkurJ said:

Here is an interesting comment. The reality is that many big dealers treat customers like trash, and it is fully acceptable. Why? Because demand far exceeds supply. Honestly speaking, if someone treats me like that, I bite right back. There is no excuse for it.

And lets be honest.  We are guilty of going back to to those dealers when they have something we want. If it bothered enough people that their business was impacted, this type of behavior would stop across the board.

They got what we want… and what we want is one of a kind unfortunately…

[kbmcvay]

On 9/1/2022 at 11:56 PM, AnkurJ said:

And lets be honest.  We are guilty of going back to to those dealers when they have something we want. If it bothered enough people that their business was impacted, this type of behavior would stop across the board.

I can only speak for myself but I've never bought a page from Romitaman or any of the 3 Donnelly Brothers (Rich, Steve, Burt Reynolds) and I'm confident I never will. If people want to buy from these guys that's their business and plenty of people do (like the $100k Italians). I've bought from plenty of dealers that I have had good experiences with (I want to buy a page, you want to sell a page, let's make a deal) and I'll name them: Glen Brunswick, Albert Moy, Anthony Snyder and Will. Politeness and good customer service matters.

[Buzzetta]

On 9/2/2022 at 12:08 AM, Unstoppablejayd said:

They got what we want… and what we want is one of a kind unfortunately…

Nah.  There is nothing in this world that I "need" otherwise it becomes a never ending quest for a never ending list of stuff.  Obviously with comic books it will always show up again so that mindset with comics is one of convenience because while I would not buy from Doug Schmell, I can always find it through CLink or a dozen other places.

However, it is true that art is one to one.  Obviously the Donnelly brothers have had pieces that I wanted.  They had some GI Joe art that I wanted once.  I don't chase artists, I look for scenes or pages that tell stories or when it comes to GI Joe or Transformers you usually chase well done depictions of the characters over the artist. I would rather have my Frank Springer page where Zartan changes to Hawk while walking on to the military base (It's a famous sequence among the toy collectors) than certain other GI Joe pages featuring no name characters that may go for more due to the artist.  You get the idea.

When I asked a dealer if they had any GI Joe art, that dealer said, "No", and called out to Donnelly 1 or 2 (I have never cared to know which is which).  I thanked the dealer for their time and just shook my head as Donnely came "a rushin' " I said, "No thanks and never mind" and moved on.   I do not want to deal with them nor need to.   They are not worth my time or effort no matter what they have.  There are things I can easily live without.   

As I get older, the more I start to look at more things as just "stuff".  I have a pretty nice and dare I say respectable collection from comics to art.  I don't say that to brag, but to remind myself not to take it for granted or feel the need to always pursue things to keep up with that never ending quest for more 'stuff'. 

 

 

  

Edited September 2, 2022 by Buzzetta

[kbmcvay]

On 9/1/2022 at 8:53 PM, grapeape said:

In the sixties a fifth Beatle. Today a third Donnelly? Good grief!!!

When Paul was the Walrus he would have looked great with the 3rd Donnelly bro's 'stache on his upper lip.

[KirbyCollector]

Animus towards individuals is wasted energy for me. I remind myself that is time is on our side, for two reasons:

1. Age. I spoke to most of the dealers at the Sunday show... none of them has a successor/family member who desires to take over the business. For those who have adult children, it is simply not something they want to do (I imagine the lack of health insurance plays a part, especially for those seeking to start their own families). At some point, health (I believe the dealer median age is low 50s) or a desire to retire will cause them to leave the business... meaning the art will come out, and at more favorable prices. 

2. Economy. I do not want to provoke an insane discussion here, but speaking cyclically, we are overdue for a recession -- a generational recession, not this little hiccup right now. This one will be large enough to reset financial markets, financial institutions, debt, etc., on a scale not seen since the 30s. I know some individuals here have postulated that the art market is immune to financial downturns, but if the event is large enough everyone will feel pain -- especially those invested in the stock market. This will hit collectibles, and cause liquidations or significant revaluations -- meaning there should be more art at much lower prices. Honestly, if I am any of the dealers (especially those sitting on $50M+ of inventory), THIS is my biggest worry right now -- how to get out without a) tanking the market or b) being stuck with thousands of pages worth pennies on the dollar. 

[delekkerste]

On 9/1/2022 at 6:10 PM, Rick2you2 said:

The OP didn't say it. I did.

"He responded that he never raises prices on things he had bought."

This is what I was referring to. I'd definitely like to get Bechara's side of the story because I can't believe that any dealer would claim to "never raise prices on things they had bought" - that is what I am saying is easily disprovable, every dealer does it all the time because that is the business. That had to be Bechara misspeaking, being taken out of context or some other form of miscommunication. 

As an aside, even if dealers perpetually keep pricing art just out of buyers' reach, those pieces would be screaming buys at some of the levels of previous price hikes. OA ain't refrigerators and countless pieces in this hobby end up selling for more later on after people passed on them at (much) lower levels.

[delekkerste]

On 9/2/2022 at 10:02 AM, KirbyCollector said:

Animus towards individuals is wasted energy for me. I remind myself that is time is on our side, for two reasons:

1. Age. I spoke to most of the dealers at the Sunday show... none of them has a successor/family member who desires to take over the business. For those who have adult children, it is simply not something they want to do (I imagine the lack of health insurance plays a part, especially for those seeking to start their own families). At some point, health (I believe the dealer median age is low 50s) or a desire to retire will cause them to leave the business... meaning the art will come out, and at more favorable prices. 

I don't think time is necessarily on our side as the median age of vintage OA collectors is probably not that much lower than the median age of vintage OA dealers. Somebody sent me a YouTube link recently of one of the early NJ Comic Art Shows from 9 years ago. Boy, did we all look a LOT younger back then.  

I do think you're right that, eventually, without successors (and without a pipeline of young vintage dealers coming up to replacement, especially without the benefit of having gotten in on the ground floor like the old guard), a lot of the art they hold will get sold and I've already mentioned that it's probably a ticking clock as to these guys giving up the convention side of the business. That said, they can certainly keep going strong for a long time with their websites and social media-based sales. And I know some dealers will end up passing much of the art down to heirs, even if those heirs don't continue their dealing businesses, so, the art could actually take a very long time to disperse back into the marketplace.  

If the mass liquidations of their collections don't happen for another 15-20+ years, a lot of people who care now probably won't then, as we'll all be AARP members ourselves.

There will, of course, also be lots of selling of Gen X collections in time, which could very well ultimately cause a secular tipping point in the OA market. That said, since it'll be my generation eventually cashing out, I'm not counting on still being young enough to care by the time those pieces do hit the market at lower prices than whatever the secular peak ends up being.  

Edited September 2, 2022 by delekkerste

[Unstoppablejayd]

On 9/2/2022 at 9:09 AM, Buzzetta said:

Nah.  There is nothing in this world that I "need" otherwise it becomes a never ending quest for a never ending list of stuff.  Obviously with comic books it will always show up again so that mindset with comics is one of convenience because while I would not buy from Doug Schmell, I can always find it through CLink or a dozen other places.

However, it is true that art is one to one.  Obviously the Donnelly brothers have had pieces that I wanted.  They had some GI Joe art that I wanted once.  I don't chase artists, I look for scenes or pages that tell stories or when it comes to GI Joe or Transformers you usually chase well done depictions of the characters over the artist. I would rather have my Frank Springer page where Zartan changes to Hawk while walking on to the military base (It's a famous sequence among the toy collectors) than certain other GI Joe pages featuring no name characters that may go for more due to the artist.  You get the idea.

When I asked a dealer if they had any GI Joe art, that dealer said, "No", and called out to Donnelly 1 or 2 (I have never cared to know which is which).  I thanked the dealer for their time and just shook my head as Donnely came "a rushin' " I said, "No thanks and never mind" and moved on.   I do not want to deal with them nor need to.   They are not worth my time or effort no matter what they have.  There are things I can easily live without.   

As I get older, the more I start to look at more things as just "stuff".  I have a pretty nice and dare I say respectable collection from comics to art.  I don't say that to brag, but to remind myself not to take it for granted or feel the need to always pursue things to keep up with that never ending quest for more 'stuff'. 

 

 

  

I agree to some extents but there are pieces that if a sordid type winds up with I will at least entertain the idea of dealing with the devil

case in point I wanted a God Loves Man Kills page pretty badly… Rich Donnelly (Rich btw is much easier to deal with then Stephen) had one. I made a nice trade this weekend to acquire  it … did it hurt a little as I gave  up more then I would like maybe .. but I am much happier today 

[Rick2you2]

On 9/2/2022 at 10:32 AM, delekkerste said:

"He responded that he never raises prices on things he had bought."

This is what I was referring to. I'd definitely like to get Bechara's side of the story because I can't believe that any dealer would claim to "never raise prices on things they had bought" - that is what I am saying is easily disprovable, every dealer does it all the time because that is the business. That had to be Bechara misspeaking, being taken out of context or some other form of miscommunication. 

Or, he could have been lying to make himself look good.

[Rick2you2]

On 9/2/2022 at 10:02 AM, KirbyCollector said: 

2. Economy. I do not want to provoke an insane discussion here, but speaking cyclically, we are overdue for a recession -- a generational recession, not this little hiccup right now. This one will be large enough to reset financial markets, financial institutions, debt, etc., on a scale not seen since the 30s. I know some individuals here have postulated that the art market is immune to financial downturns, but if the event is large enough everyone will feel pain -- especially those invested in the stock market. This will hit collectibles, and cause liquidations or significant revaluations -- meaning there should be more art at much lower prices. Honestly, if I am any of the dealers (especially those sitting on $50M+ of inventory), THIS is my biggest worry right now -- how to get out without a) tanking the market or b) being stuck with thousands of pages worth pennies on the dollar. 

I don’t think you will see it again. The Great Depression occurred because what would have been a milder recession was mishandled. Money was effectively pulled out of commerce as lending froze and the government thought the right solution was to economize, while simultaneously having more economic power to influence things than it did at the time of the “Panics” of the 19th century. We already had the Great Recession. I think that is the worst you will see going forward unless there is a systemic collapse.

[vodou]

On 9/2/2022 at 12:43 PM, Rick2you2 said:

…unless there is a systemic collapse.

Yeah.

[The Voord]

On 9/2/2022 at 3:32 PM, delekkerste said:

I can't believe that any dealer would claim to "never raise prices on things they had bought"  . . . every dealer does it all the time because that is the business. 

That, for me, would be like saying, "I don't drink the beer that I buy"*

Yeah, right.  

 

[The Voord]

On 9/2/2022 at 1:27 PM, kbmcvay said:

I've bought from plenty of dealers that I have had good experiences with (I want to buy a page, you want to sell a page, let's make a deal). Politeness and good customer service matters.

I've bought and traded art with most of the major dealers over the years (been doing this since 1982, so not exactly a newbie) and my last biggie (a $15K all-cash purchase) was with Bechara (Mr. Moustache to you, lol) a few years ago . . . pretty much along the lines you cite . . . he wanted to sell a page, I wanted to buy that page and we made a deal.  Bechara was prompt and polite throughout all our communications . . . and as for good customer services, his art package from the USA to the UK arrived in two days.  Fastest international shipping I've ever experienced.

Can't speak for the experience of others but, for me, no problems whatsoever with Mr. Moustache.

And as for alleged statement from Bechara that he, "never raises prices on things he had bought"  . . . well, if that's true, it's a business model I've never ever encountered before.  If he said such a thing (not calling anyone a liar), was it a tongue-in-cheek comment delivered with the wink of an eye?  Too ridiculous to take seriously . . . if coming from a dealer!  Dealers are notoriously mercenary, in their day-to-day dealings with mere mortals, and are not practicing philanthropists!!

Just my 

Edited September 4, 2022 by The Voord

[Rick2you2]

On 9/3/2022 at 7:40 PM, The Voord said:UK arrived in two days.  Fastest international shipping I've ever experienced.

And as for alleged statement from Bechara that he, "never raises prices on things he had bought"  . . . well, if that's true, it's a business model I've never ever encountered before.  If he said such a thing (not calling anyone a liar), was it a tongue-in-cheek comment delivered with the wink of an eye?  Too ridiculous to take seriously . . . if coming from a dealer!  Dealers are notoriously mercenary, in their day-to-day dealings with mere mortals, and are not practicing philanthropists!!

Just my 

Lots of people have had good buying experiences; and I think that has included me from some time in the past. And, I don’t have any personal complaints about him either. Very pleasant to deal with at shows (although he sometimes seems a little tightly wound). Someone I know has also been happy doing trades with him. So, I don’t have any personal complaints at all. But I know what I heard, whether true or not, and it did not sound tongue and cheek, either. And no, it did not sound ridiculous to me. Raising prices on pieces which don’t sell seems even more ridiculous, but that seems to be the way here. It isn’t philanthropy; it’s inventory control. But frankly, at this point, the horse has been beaten to death. The answer is buy overpriced pieces now because later, they will become even more overpriced. 🥸

[The Voord]

On 9/4/2022 at 11:48 AM, Rick2you2 said:

 Raising prices on pieces which don’t sell seems even more ridiculous, but that seems to be the way here. It isn’t philanthropy; it’s inventory control.

The raising of prices, in line with sales results of an ever- changing market, is a natural progression echoed in other businesses.  I sometimes think that too many ongoing auctions often deflect interest away from perfectly good art that's been sitting a while on dealers' sites . . . and collectors can either become complacent about such  inventory, or more focused on the buzz generated by the latest auction . . . maybe a combination of both.  From time to time, I've personally offered art for direct sale at stipulated asking prices with items going unsold.  Did I lower my prices?  No, I considered my asks FMV.  Instead, I consigned  a bunch of OA to auction (with reserves) where, in most cases, hammer prices were in excess of my original private asks.  

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by The Voord