NJ Art Con August 28th 3 3

[kbmcvay]

On 8/30/2022 at 9:39 AM, jaybuck43 said:

I know for a fact he is lying.  He has had this piece for almost a decade at this point.

(It looks much nicer in person, this is a copy from the fanzene it was published in).  I passed on it at $1,500, I passed on it at $2,500, and I passed on it this weekend at $6,500

He's just waiting for the right customer to come along.

[Kryptic1]

On 8/29/2022 at 5:54 PM, GreatEscape said:

Yes, great photos, thanks for sharing. Perhaps dealer prices are high because the cost of acquiring new material from Heritage (or other auctions) are high.  I saw dozens of 2022 auction pieces on dealer walls, mostly priced 40-70% over prices sold.   The flow of consignments and/or private sales of quality pieces are significantly lower these days.  

I see the “recent auction price + a large markup” pricing often and I’m amazed that the market is inefficient enough for that to work.  Is there a large pool of buyers who just don’t pay attention to auctions?  I don’t understand why someone who was unwilling to pay $30k a few months ago is willing to pay $50k today.

[Pete Marino]

On 8/30/2022 at 12:11 PM, Kryptic1 said:

I see the “recent auction price + a large markup” pricing often and I’m amazed that the market is inefficient enough for that to work.  Is there a large pool of buyers who just don’t pay attention to auctions?  I don’t understand why someone who was unwilling to pay $30k a few months ago is willing to pay $50k today.

"back in the day", I'd chalk a lot of that up to trading.  Dealers buy, mark up, and then trade it for a ton of smaller pages for a "bigger fish" catch for the collector.  Then the dealer has a bunch of lower end art that's easier to move at a great mark-up.  But these days, who knows anymore.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Pete Marino

[jjonahjameson11]

On 8/30/2022 at 12:11 PM, Kryptic1 said:

I see the “recent auction price + a large markup” pricing often and I’m amazed that the market is inefficient enough for that to work.  Is there a large pool of buyers who just don’t pay attention to auctions?  I don’t understand why someone who was unwilling to pay $30k a few months ago is willing to pay $50k today.

Based on sales results for a ‘like’ page that sold for 50K at auction or elsewhere publicly, it may reinforce the higher valuation in the buyer’s mind, and/or perhaps a bit of FOMO sets in for good effect.

it happens more frequently than we think.

Edited August 30, 2022 by jjonahjameson11

[Rick2you2]

On 8/30/2022 at 8:08 AM, kbmcvay said:

I think Mr. Mustache is blatantly lying here. He raises prices on things on his website all the time and unless every single one of those things was gifted to him they were bought. By him.

Not a good idea for something likely to be remembered. If he had simply said that “the market has moved up and I am pricing it at market”, I still wouldn’t have bought it, but I would have respected his frankness. Now, I wouldn’t trust what he says on almost anything. 

[artdealer]

On 8/30/2022 at 8:08 AM, kbmcvay said:

I think Mr. Mustache is blatantly lying here. He raises prices on things on his website all the time and unless every single one of those things was gifted to him they were bought. By him.

Of course Mr. Mustache does. 
Every one does, except me. 😁

[artdealer]

On 8/30/2022 at 9:39 AM, jaybuck43 said:

I know for a fact he is lying.  He has had this piece for almost a decade at this point.

(It looks much nicer in person, this is a copy from the fanzene it was published in).  I passed on it at $1,500, I passed on it at $2,500, and I passed on it this weekend at $6,500

He has had the Infantino Detective splash longer than a decade. 

[Rick2you2]

On 8/30/2022 at 12:35 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Based on sales results for a ‘like’ page that sold for 50K at auction or elsewhere publicly, it may reinforce the higher valuation in the buyer’s mind, and/or perhaps a bit of FOMO sets in for good effect.

it happens more frequently than we think.

Not really surprised. This is just another version of "market making", like shilling at public auctions.

On one piece I am watching, something odd is going on. There is very little public history of how much a particular artist's work sells for (I've bought privately, so I know). There were also about half a dozen pages of the artist's work listed for sale. All of a sudden, after sitting around in some cases for years, they all vanished. Then, some covers start coming up for auction. Very strange "coincidence". I'm thinking someone didn't want the public looking at low prices to gauge comparables, and bought or somehow manuevered them off the market in the hope the pieces would rise higher without comparables to consider. Is that possible? Has that happened before?

[artdealer]

On 8/31/2022 at 7:07 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Not really surprised. This is just another version of "market making", like shilling at public auctions.

On one piece I am watching, something odd is going on. There is very little public history of how much a particular artist's work sells for (I've bought privately, so I know). There were also about half a dozen pages of the artist's work listed for sale. All of a sudden, after sitting around in some cases for years, they all vanished. Then, some covers start coming up for auction. Very strange "coincidence". I'm thinking someone didn't want the public looking at low prices to gauge comparables, and bought or somehow manuevered them off the market in the hope the pieces would rise higher without comparables to consider. Is that possible? Has that happened before?

More than you think. 

[KirbyCollector]

On 8/30/2022 at 12:55 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Not a good idea for something likely to be remembered. If he had simply said that “the market has moved up and I am pricing it at market”, I still wouldn’t have bought it, but I would have respected his frankness. Now, I wouldn’t trust what he says on almost anything. 

I'm going to front load this by stating I have no relationship, personal or professional, with Bechara. I have purchased a few pieces from him over the past 15(?) years (if that means anything) but I have never consigned anything to him. In other words, I owe him nothing. However, this relentless criticism of him is unwarranted. He operates a business for profit, the same as every other dealer. His practices, acquisition strategy and pricing are proprietary, i.e., it is in his interest not to disclose certain things because that gives him a competitive edge and helps him remain in business. Isn't that what any good business, OA related or otherwise, does? I don't buy anything with the notion that the underlying cost should be exposed to me -- why would any business provide that? As far as raising prices goes, I'd like to see a business which has NOT raised prices over the past xxx years. OA has gone up -- WAY up. Just look at the other post about the Zeck recreation -- prices have seemingly increased 400+% on those pieces since 2018!! Again, any business wishing to stay in business during a hot market will of course increase prices... just stroll onto a Ford lot right now and trying buying a new Bronco for less than $10,000 over MSRP.

Again, if a buyer contacted me and asked me to buy a piece, am I under an obligation to tell him I paid 15% of the current ask when I acquired it? Do I have to disclose the price was less six months ago? No -- so why do we demand this from dealers? We are all adults here... if you do your research and know pricing, you buy or don't buy from me. I don't understand the need to beat up a dealer for doing what we all do, which is try and make a profit.

Edited August 31, 2022 by KirbyCollector

[jjonahjameson11]

On 8/31/2022 at 1:25 PM, KirbyCollector said:

I'm going to front load this by stating I have no relationship, personal or professional, with Bechara. I have purchased a few pieces from him over the past 15(?) years (if that means anything) but I have never consigned anything to him. In other words, I owe him nothing. However, this relentless criticism of him is unwarranted. He operates a business for profit, the same as every other dealer. His practices, acquisition strategy and pricing are proprietary, i.e., it is in his interest not to disclose certain things because that gives him a competitive edge and helps him remain in business. Isn't that what any good business, OA related or otherwise, does? I don't buy anything with the notion that the underlying cost should be exposed to me -- why would any business provide that? As far as raising prices goes, I'd like to see a business which has NOT raised prices over the past xxx years. OA has gone up -- WAY up. Just look at the other post about the Zeck recreation -- prices have seemingly increased 400+% on those pieces since 2018!! Again, any business wishing to stay in business during a hot market will of course increase prices... just stroll onto a Ford lot right now and trying buying a new Bronco for less than $10,000 over MSRP.

Again, if a buyer contacted me and asked me to buy a piece, am I under an obligation to tell him I paid 15% of the current ask when I acquired it? Do I have to disclose the price was less six months ago? No -- so why do we demand this from dealers? We are all adults here... if you do your research and know pricing, you buy or don't buy from me. I don't understand the need to beat up a dealer for doing what we all do, which is try and make a profit.

You wrote so much, yet failed entirely to mention the crux of the problem…Bechara lied and as a result of lying, many find him untrustworthy.

[KirbyCollector]

So this was the original post:

Another time, I looked at a piece Bechara was trying to sell. I asked him how much, and he quoted me a very high price. I told him I thought the last time he had it for sale, he priced it at $2,000 less. He responded that he never raises prices on things he had bought.

Is it possible the price was consigned to him, sold to someone and then sold or traded back to him at a higher price? I know for a fact pieces have left his hands and then circled back in trades. All I am saying is, without knowing all the facts it is dangerous to jump right to "he lied to me."

Edited August 31, 2022 by KirbyCollector

[vodou]

The last time I did business with him was in the mid to late 90s, it was a lesson learned and I’ve never done business with him since no matter what he’s got or what he wants and is willing to pay for something.

[Rick2you2]

On 8/31/2022 at 3:42 PM, KirbyCollector said:

So this was the original post:

Another time, I looked at a piece Bechara was trying to sell. I asked him how much, and he quoted me a very high price. I told him I thought the last time he had it for sale, he priced it at $2,000 less. He responded that he never raises prices on things he had bought.

Is it possible the price was consigned to him, sold to someone and then sold or traded back to him at a higher price? I know for a fact pieces have left his hands and then circled back in trades. All I am saying is, without knowing all the facts it is dangerous to jump right to "he lied to me."

Not really, no. It was a piece I had been watching for years; one of those ones you don't really want but are still kinda-sort of interested in, and if you hit the jackpot might change your mind and buy it. But it no longer matters because it has since been sucked into a black hole where pricing is a sometime thing. Any guesses who has it now?

[Rick2you2]

 

On one piece I am watching, something odd is going on. There is very little public history of how much a particular artist's work sells for (I've bought privately, so I know). There were also about half a dozen pages of the artist's work listed for sale. All of a sudden, after sitting around in some cases for years, they all vanished. Then, some covers start coming up for auction. Very strange "coincidence". I'm thinking someone didn't want the public looking at low prices to gauge comparables, and bought or somehow manuevered them off the market in the hope the pieces would rise higher without comparables to consider. Is that possible? Has that happened before?

 

On 8/31/2022 at 10:29 AM, artdealer said:

More than you think. 

That answer bothers me a lot, because different people from all over the place had pages--not just dealers. Someone went to a lot of trouble for some pieces that won't sell particularly high under any circumstances. Instead of making joking references to the "Cabal", I'm beginning to think we should consider the existence of a real Cartel, and its price impact.

[comix4fun]

I learned something new from this thread: 

 

On 8/30/2022 at 7:08 AM, kbmcvay said:

 Mr. Mustache 

 

On 8/30/2022 at 1:30 PM, artdealer said:

Mr. Mustache 

Haven't heard that one before...
But I think if a third person posts that he's summoned through a portal like Beetlejuice.

[Buzzetta]

On 8/31/2022 at 5:41 PM, comix4fun said:

I learned something new from this thread: 

 

 

Haven't heard that one before...
But I think if a third person posts that he's summoned through a portal like Beetlejuice.

What I think of every time it's been mentioned... 

 

 

[Rick2you2]

On 8/31/2022 at 10:29 AM, artdealer said:

More than you think. 

Interestingly enough, the one cover that had been previously available for sale on the open market has now reappeared on Heritage after all the other potential, lesser comparables had been pulled. I think I can now guess what will also be coming up in the next few months.

[delekkerste]

On 8/31/2022 at 1:25 PM, KirbyCollector said:

I'm going to front load this by stating I have no relationship, personal or professional, with Bechara. I have purchased a few pieces from him over the past 15(?) years (if that means anything) but I have never consigned anything to him. In other words, I owe him nothing. However, this relentless criticism of him is unwarranted. He operates a business for profit, the same as every other dealer. His practices, acquisition strategy and pricing are proprietary, i.e., it is in his interest not to disclose certain things because that gives him a competitive edge and helps him remain in business. Isn't that what any good business, OA related or otherwise, does? I don't buy anything with the notion that the underlying cost should be exposed to me -- why would any business provide that? As far as raising prices goes, I'd like to see a business which has NOT raised prices over the past xxx years. OA has gone up -- WAY up. Just look at the other post about the Zeck recreation -- prices have seemingly increased 400+% on those pieces since 2018!! Again, any business wishing to stay in business during a hot market will of course increase prices... just stroll onto a Ford lot right now and trying buying a new Bronco for less than $10,000 over MSRP.

Again, if a buyer contacted me and asked me to buy a piece, am I under an obligation to tell him I paid 15% of the current ask when I acquired it? Do I have to disclose the price was less six months ago? No -- so why do we demand this from dealers? We are all adults here... if you do your research and know pricing, you buy or don't buy from me. I don't understand the need to beat up a dealer for doing what we all do, which is try and make a profit.

100%

The notion that anyone would claim to never raise prices from where they first offered something after buying it for resale makes so little sense that I'd definitely want to hear Bechara's side of the story before jumping to any conclusions. Seems to me like this is far more likely a case of him misspeaking, something being taken out of context, and/or some other kind of miscommunication. I mean, even if he said it, I would bet he didn't mean it quite like the OP thinks he meant it. 

People can think whatever they want of Bechara, but, one thing he isn't is stupid. The Bechara I know would never say something so easily and immediately disprovable by anyone with an IQ over 60 with the intention of getting one over on someone. Unless he thought that person actually had an IQ under 60, which I don't think would apply to anyone here...  

Edited September 1, 2022 by delekkerste

[Rick2you2]

On 9/1/2022 at 3:29 PM, delekkerste said:

100%

The notion that anyone would claim to never raise prices from where they first offered something after buying it for resale makes so little sense that I'd definitely want to hear Bechara's side of the story before jumping to any conclusions. Seems to me like this is far more likely a case of him misspeaking, something being taken out of context, and/or some other kind of miscommunication. I mean, even if he said it, I would bet he didn't mean it quite like the OP thinks he meant it. 

People can think whatever they want of Bechara, but, one thing he isn't is stupid. The Bechara I know would never say something so easily and immediately disprovable by anyone with an IQ over 60 with the intention of getting one over on someone. Unless he thought that person actually had an IQ under 60, which I don't think would apply to anyone here...  

The OP didn't say it. I did. And actually, saying it is something a reasonably smart person would say. Since the piece had already been purchased, offering it at a higher price than before, when it wasn't sold, instead of a lower price because it is old stock, is counter-intuitive. When stock sits around, stores lower their prices to increase their cash flow. They don't hold it on the theory that newer, say, refrigerators will cost more. Moreover, admitting to raising prices is essentially telling the potential buyer: "I see my inabiltiy to move this piece as an opportunity to increase my profit margin at your expense." As to whether it is disprovable, how? Go to the Wayback Machine and try to find it? Who would bother?

You might say to yourself: "Ah, but art is an investment, not a refrigerator." Well if have that kind of free money, and are so confident it will sell, go ahead, raise the prices, I won't buy it. And neither did any other real person. It's now with a different dealer, where it sits in all its glory, until Heritage needs to be contacted in a few years.

As for me: "I don't wanna be a pinhead no more, I just met a nurse that I could go for."