NJ Art Con August 28th 3 3

[kbmcvay]

On 9/6/2022 at 10:55 AM, Bronty said:

1) You can dislike the guy all you want.   I've never had any interaction with him and have no comment on his personality.    

2) Disliking the guy doesn't mean he's wrong in his approach.    In your example of holding out for 3k instead of 2700, why would he sell below replacement cost?   If 3k is a fair replacement price (separate discussion) then selling for 2700 *IS* losing 300.   His cost base, whether its a hundred dollars or a billion dollars, is irrelevant.

You assume it is below replacement cost. How can you know this? It's an example based purely on revenue. 

[Bronty]

On 9/6/2022 at 11:05 AM, kbmcvay said:

You assume it is below replacement cost. How can you know this? It's an example based purely on revenue. 

And the point which you seem to be missing entirely is, if he's trying to stay in business selling vintage art, that revenue (on its own, without consideration of replacement cost) does not much matter and focussing on maximizing revenue without considering replacement cost is a good way to erode your inventory over time and eventually go out of business.

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bronty

[KirbyCollector]

On 9/6/2022 at 9:40 AM, kbmcvay said:

If he bought a page for $100 and then priced it at $3,000 and somebody offered him $2,700 for it he would turn them down because in his mind he was losing $300 not making $2,600. 90% of something is better than 100% of nothing

So this was almost my exact scenario at the NJ art con. Bechara had a page I liked for around that price but would not budge even 10%. I walked away, came back to view it again, walked away again. Then I thought, Wait, I am walking away from a page I really like because of a $300 difference? A page which no one has seen in 30 years? A page which, if I popped it up on Clink or HA, would probably go for $4,000? Am I nuts? So I went back and bought it, and now am happy to have it, because 100% of that page WAS better than nothing (a moral victory) for me. Good sellers know this.

Edited September 6, 2022 by KirbyCollector

[kbmcvay]

On 9/6/2022 at 11:08 AM, Bronty said:

And the point which you seem to be missing entirely is, if he's trying to stay in business selling vintage art, that revenue (on its own, without consideration of replacement cost) does not much matter and focussing on maximizing revenue without considering replacement cost is a good way to erode your inventory over time and eventually go out of business.

 

All of these valuations are completely arbitrary. He can try to maximize revenue all he wants but if nobody buys the page does replacement cost even matter since he's stuck with it? Let me ask you a question: does anybody think that FF Annual 4 page is worth $28,500 in today's market? Is a replacement cost of $28,500 warranted for that page? The "replacement cost" doubled overnight when he raised the price on this page arbitrarily? Also, if his prices are so reasonable why not take some of this stuff that sits forever to auction? His valuations are so perfect that he is sure to get what he wants, right? 

Edited September 6, 2022 by kbmcvay

[kbmcvay]

On 9/6/2022 at 11:08 AM, Bronty said:

And the point which you seem to be missing entirely is, if he's trying to stay in business selling vintage art, that revenue (on its own, without consideration of replacement cost) does not much matter and focussing on maximizing revenue without considering replacement cost is a good way to erode your inventory over time and eventually go out of business.

 

Also, is Mr. Mustache the only dealer with replacement cost considerations? If not, then why is every other dealer I've worked with willing to negotiate to close the deal on 4-5 figure pieces? Are Albert Moy and Glen Brunswick on the verge of going out of business by not standing firm?

[Rick2you2]

On 9/6/2022 at 9:40 AM, kbmcvay said:

Yawn. Why don't you start an investigation on it?

I don't think anybody has even mentioned Moy in a critical manner in this thread and I actually was very complimentary of him in this thread and others. You're right it is easy to thrown stones at Mr. Mustache because his website is garbage, he's a jerk in real life and his pricing practices are what they are. If he bought a page for $100 and then priced it at $3,000 and somebody offered him $2,700 for it he would turn them down because in his mind he was losing $300 not making $2,600. 90% of something is better than 100% of nothing which is what it is when it doesn't sell. Ever. He can do what he wants and some people will buy from him but I never will.

 

The simple reason that he won’t take $2,700 is that comic art is, to a fair extent, an impulse purchase by people who have the money to spend on impulse purchases. Why give away $300 when a dealer knows most people will throw in the extra 10% or 5% or whatever? For higher priced pieces, some dealers will throw it in, regardless, figuring it promotes good will, some won’t. But, that logic may not work for a low cost piece where demand is likely to be low. Unsurprisingly, Anthony’s will deal. 

[Will_K]

Even at today's crazy prices, I don't consider $3,000 comic art to be a low cost piece.  But otherwise, I agree with your argument.

[kbmcvay]

On 9/6/2022 at 12:10 PM, Rick2you2 said:

The simple reason that he won’t take $2,700 is that comic art is, to a fair extent, an impulse purchase by people who have the money to spend on impulse purchases. Why give away $300 when a dealer knows most people will throw in the extra 10% or 5% or whatever? For higher priced pieces, some dealers will throw it in, regardless, figuring it promotes good will, some won’t. But, that logic may not work for a low cost piece where demand is likely to be low. Unsurprisingly, Anthony’s will deal. 

Exactly. I agree fully.

[kbmcvay]

On 9/6/2022 at 12:22 PM, Will_K said:

Even at today's crazy prices, I don't consider $3,000 comic art to be a low cost piece. 

Agreed.

[Bronty]

On 9/6/2022 at 11:50 AM, kbmcvay said:

All of these valuations are completely arbitrary. He can try to maximize revenue all he wants but if nobody buys the page does replacement cost even matter since he's stuck with it? Let me ask you a question: does anybody think that FF Annual 4 page is worth $28,500 in today's market? Is a replacement cost of $28,500 warranted for that page? The "replacement cost" doubled overnight when he raised the price on this page arbitrarily? Also, if his prices are so reasonable why not take some of this stuff that sits forever to auction? His valuations are so perfect that he is sure to get what he wants, right? 

You and Rick both seem determined to not understand that he can price his stuff however the heck he wants.   Replacement cost, cost base, or indexed to the price of cheddar cheese.    Its his choice.

You, as potential buyers, can choose to walk away if you don't like the price.   

What's the problem, besides your dislike of the guy?   

And what's not plain to see in the fact that letting the inventory appreciate over time by not selling it, or by only selling it judiciously, has worked out great for him?

All of that is in my opinion completely self-evident.    If you two want to argue with yourselves because you dislike the guy, be my guest.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bronty

[malvin]

On 9/6/2022 at 9:22 AM, Will_K said:

Even at today's crazy prices, I don't consider $3,000 comic art to be a low cost piece.  But otherwise, I agree with your argument.

Low cost or low end? Maybe I'm being picky on Mondays :P

I think most people in a general context would not consider $3K low cost.  

The OA side is more subjective.  I think these days anything under $1K is lower end, while 3K still gets you very nice art.  That might change soon if the current appreciation pace continues unabated!

Malvin

[jjonahjameson11]

On 9/6/2022 at 12:39 PM, malvin said:

Low cost or low end? Maybe I'm being picky on Mondays :P

I think most people in a general context would not consider $3K low cost.  

The OA side is more subjective.  I think these days anything under $1K is lower end, while 3K still gets you very nice art.  That might change soon if the current appreciation pace continues unabated!

Malvin

  Two Williamson Corrigan dailies for $1.3K, followed by a daily for under $400.  I know what you're trying to say, but I think these examples (sold over the past month on HA) are not low end, rather, they are huge deals!

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by jjonahjameson11

[Rick2you2]

On 9/6/2022 at 12:36 PM, Bronty said:

You and Rick both seem determined to not understand that he can price his stuff however the heck he wants.   Replacement cost, cost base, or indexed to the price of cheddar cheese.    Its his effing choice.

You, as potential buyers, can choose to walk away if you don't like the price.   

What's the problem, besides your dislike of the guy?   

And what's not plain to see in the fact that letting the inventory appreciate over time by not selling it, or by only selling it judiciously, has worked out great for him?

All of that is in my opinion completely self-evident.    If you two want to argue with yourselves because you dislike the guy, be my guest.

 

 

I don’t dislike the guy. I disliked the fact that he said he never raises prices on inventory, which, virtually everyone here has said is BS. It means I will take whatever he says with an “extra grain of salt”. The rest of this discussion sped off on its own.

 I also think there is a difference between OA which sells for (somewhat arbitrary number here) less than $1,500 and some of the other things you folks discuss. Lower priced pieces have got to be considerable replaceable, dealers list them all the time. Shaving a few bucks from a price won’t cost the dealer much, particularly since this is the stuff they buy in bulk from artists and other dealers cleaning out old stock. How many times have we all walked past pages and pages of old House of Mystery pages, having virtually no interest in it, and knowing very few people will? 

[Bronty]

Agreed

[kbmcvay]

On 9/6/2022 at 12:36 PM, Bronty said:

He can price his stuff however the heck he wants.   Replacement cost, cost base, or indexed to the price of cheddar cheese.    Its his choice.

You, as potential buyers, can choose to walk away if you don't like the price.   

I agree with this completely. I thought you said he couldn't lower the price at all because of replacement costs earlier with the $3K example.

[kbmcvay]

On 9/6/2022 at 12:52 PM, Rick2you2 said:

I don’t dislike the guy. I disliked the fact that he said he never raises prices on inventory, which, virtually everyone here has said is BS. It means I will take whatever he says with an “extra grain of salt”. The rest of this discussion sped off on its own.

It all kind of goes together...Like a cross between Pinocchio and Steve Donnelly.

[Bronty]

On 9/6/2022 at 12:56 PM, kbmcvay said:

I agree with this completely. I thought you said he couldn't lower the price at all because of replacement costs earlier with the $3K example.

That was in response to criticism of his high prices and his unwillingness to discount his ask.   To which the response was a) it’s his choice and b) it’s not solely about revenue in a going concern model c) it seems to have worked out just fine. 

[vodou]

On 9/6/2022 at 12:10 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Unsurprisingly, Anthony’s will deal. 

so will Fred Sanford.

[pemart1966]

On 9/6/2022 at 1:00 PM, kbmcvay said:

It all kind of goes together...Like a cross between Pinocchio and Steve Donnelly.

...except that stuff is priced...

Edited September 6, 2022 by pemart1966

[thehumantorch]

On 9/6/2022 at 9:50 AM, kbmcvay said:

All of these valuations are completely arbitrary. He can try to maximize revenue all he wants but if nobody buys the page does replacement cost even matter since he's stuck with it? Let me ask you a question: does anybody think that FF Annual 4 page is worth $28,500 in today's market? Is a replacement cost of $28,500 warranted for that page? The "replacement cost" doubled overnight when he raised the price on this page arbitrarily? Also, if his prices are so reasonable why not take some of this stuff that sits forever to auction? His valuations are so perfect that he is sure to get what he wants, right? 

I can understand that you think his prices are too high and the increasing of prices is frustrating but none of that matters.  Replacement cost isn't relevant  The price he had it last year or yesterday isn't relevant.  He doesn't care if his valuations are perfect, there's no such thing.

If he followed your advice and set a reasonable price on that FF4 Annual page or sent it to auction it would have sold years ago for a fraction of what it's worth today.  Same for any of his quality pieces.  He understands this hobby better than anyone and he knows he has quality one of a kind inventory, that's almost irreplaceable, and that's increasing in value.

I know you don't like it but how do you not understand it?