CGC Members Choice: Most Single Undervalued GA Comic book your opinion and mine! 7 7

[mwotka]

On 11/16/2022 at 9:40 AM, Robot Man said:

So a book that has 148 9.8 copies just sold for $146K? What are people on dope? One of the most common of “keys”. I recently reread the copy I carefully picked off the newstand for the second time. Frankly, VERY poor art and  story. I know it is Wolverine and a “grail” to many but there are SO many better books to buy if I were foolish enough to spend my money on. I really should slab and sell it…

I don't understand it either, was just musing with some friends about what we'd rather spend that money on.  You could get some really great books for that cash.  

[LearnedHand]

On 11/16/2022 at 10:03 AM, sfcityduck said:

I guess it bears mentioning that the comic market can be seen as having had stages when it comes to pricing

Stage1 - which went from the 30s into the 60s was a time of plentiful supply and very low prices when huge collections could be amassed for less than cover prices by anyone. And many great collections still around today were largely built in that era.

Stage 2 - which went from the advent of the 60s into the late 70s was a time of price inflation due to the emergence of the OPG and more widespread pricing info. This led to widespread trading on information disparities.  Collectors would search for underpriced books “in the wild” or would exploit information disparities about hot book increases between annual guides.

Stage 3 I think started in the 80s as we saw pricing publications come out every month necessitating price increases every month to warrant readers buying those publications and resulting unrestrained hype of allegedly hot books.  This dragged the market into a hot book speculation mindset.

Stage 4 has seen actual sales results become available daily (eBay) and weekly (Heritage) on the internet which has had a bit of a tampering effect on some genres and is generally a healthy development. But it can lead to a lemming effect both upward and downward, and it does make it easier to spread info and opinions on pricing both upward and downward on sites like this.  We all can be market makers  now. Information disparities are decreased and buyers now have plenty of cautionary info available to them. It should make the market more rational as time goes by but challenges remain.

Just a thought.

 

Agree with everything you said, and generally see it the same. 

I do, however, think there's a key distinction between market dynamics pushing prices upward (whether legitimate or not) and people (Board members, YouTube personalities, etc.) routinely expressing the opinion that [fill in the blank] book is undervalued and stating they would pay more than current market.

Market dynamics dictate value.  And, ironically, many of those voices are people that can't afford the given book at current market value.... even though they would pay more. 

This isn't in any way intended as a slight of the OP, the thread just prompted me to reflect. 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by LearnedHand

[path4play]

On 11/16/2022 at 10:03 AM, sfcityduck said:

I guess it bears mentioning that the comic market can be seen as having had stages when it comes to pricing

Stage1 - which went from the 30s into the 60s was a time of plentiful supply and very low prices when huge collections could be amassed for less than cover prices by anyone. And many great collections still around today were largely built in that era.

Stage 2 - which went from the end of the 60s into the late 70s was a time of price inflation due to the emergence of the OPG and more widespread pricing info. This led to widespread trading on information disparities.  Collectors would search for underpriced books “in the wild” or would exploit information disparities about hot book increases between annual guides.

Stage 3 I think started in the 80s as we saw pricing publications come out every month necessitating price increases every month to warrant readers buying those publications and resulting unrestrained hype of allegedly hot books.  This dragged the market into a hot book speculation mindset.

Stage 4 has seen actual sales results become available daily (eBay) and weekly (Heritage) on the internet which has had a bit of a tampering effect on some genres and is generally a healthy development. But it can lead to a lemming effect both upward and downward, and it does make it easier to spread info and opinions on pricing both upward and downward on sites like this.  We all can be market makers  now. Information disparities are decreased and buyers now have plenty of cautionary info available to them. It should make the market more rational as time goes by but challenges remain.

Just a thought.

 

Interesting and thoughtful take. 

Stage 2, I would note was also impacted by general inflation, which saw even the newsstand prices rise rapidly. 

While I was not collecting late in Stage 3, wasn't there a bubble burst in the late 90's...so call that 3b? 

Also would consider adding a Stage 4a and 4b.  4a being the explosion of superhero movie popularity followed by (4b) locked-in COVID and subsequent additional inflationary hot money liquidity buying.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by path4play

[sfcityduck]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:07 PM, path4play said:

Interesting and thoughtful take.  During Stage 2, I would note was also impacted by general inflation, which say even the newsstand prices rise rapidly.  While I wasn't in the collected, not collecting, but will start collecting again stage say Stage 3a - late 90's wasn't there a bust?  Also a Stage 4a and 4b, being explosion of superhero movie popularity followed by (4b) locked-in COVID and subsequent additional inflationary hot money liquidity buying?

 

 

I'm like you.  Out at the end of the 80s (never sold out - just boxed up in closets -  took a break, lured back in gradually by this site. The 90s are a mystery to me.  I think I'm lucky on that front.  

[bronze johnny]

On 11/15/2022 at 10:13 AM, ChillMan said:

DC and the Siegel family were arguing copyright issues.  DC submitted More Fun 31 as their earliest claim to Superman.

Can you refer me to the source specifying this as DC’s earliest claim? Thanks!

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 11/17/2022 at 7:14 AM, bronze johnny said:

Can you refer me to the source specifying this as DC’s earliest claim? Thanks!

It’s really hard to know exactly what issues were decided by the jury, or what the trial strategy was of the lawyers trying the case. I suppose it’s out there somewhere. 
 

a quick google search popped up a couple appellate decisions reflecting appeals arising out of whatever the jury verdict was. The opinions are dry reading, but if you have the stamina for it, there’s some interesting things in there

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/93/349/1971798/

[bronze johnny]

On 11/17/2022 at 10:03 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

It’s really hard to know exactly what issues were decided by the jury, or what the trial strategy was of the lawyers trying the case. I suppose it’s out there somewhere. 
 

a quick google search popped up a couple appellate decisions reflecting appeals arising out of whatever the jury verdict was. The opinions are dry reading, but if you have the stamina for it, there’s some interesting things in there

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/93/349/1971798/

Thank you and goes to my concern about interpretation. There’s a conclusion that DC submitted More Fun as evidence “as their earliest claim to Superman.” I’d like to see where that’s stated and/or what document(s) support(s) this conclusion.

Edited November 17, 2022 by bronze johnny

[eschnit]

I don’t own one, but have always thought this to be undervalued…

[Mmehdy]

On 11/16/2022 at 7:03 AM, sfcityduck said:

I guess it bears mentioning that the comic market can be seen as having had stages when it comes to pricing

Stage1 - which went from the 30s into the 60s was a time of plentiful supply and very low prices when huge collections could be amassed for less than cover prices by anyone. And many great collections still around today were largely built in that era.

Stage 2 - which went from the end of the 60s into the late 70s was a time of price inflation due to the emergence of the OPG and more widespread pricing info. This led to widespread trading on information disparities.  Collectors would search for underpriced books “in the wild” or would exploit information disparities about hot book increases between annual guides.

Stage 3 I think started in the 80s as we saw pricing publications come out every month necessitating price increases every month to warrant readers buying those publications and resulting unrestrained hype of allegedly hot books.  This dragged the market into a hot book speculation mindset.

Stage 4 has seen actual sales results become available daily (eBay) and weekly (Heritage) on the internet which has had a bit of a tampering effect on some genres and is generally a healthy development. But it can lead to a lemming effect both upward and downward, and it does make it easier to spread info and opinions on pricing both upward and downward on sites like this.  We all can be market makers  now. Information disparities are decreased and buyers now have plenty of cautionary info available to them. It should make the market more rational as time goes by but challenges remain.

Just a thought.

 

Stage 1 spot on, used books stores used sell 12 cent comics for only 10 cents or less early 60's FYI

Stage 2--Overstreet was the "market" and everyone was looking for not only the underpriced books, but the unknown books like Earth Man on Venus, Mask of Fu C etc....

Stage 3-The market changed to only high end buyers for the cream of the crop, Action 1 in VF sold by Bruce Hamilton for 25K which was a big deal...1982

Stage 4-Infomation explosion helped pricing upwards but it was the age old factor of Demand which increased from the Rocket Blast comic collectors to the entire world via Ha, Ebay and of course CGC which gave the market confidence to increase prices to investment level.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Mmehdy

[sfcityduck]

On 11/17/2022 at 5:14 AM, bronze johnny said:

Can you refer me to the source specifying this as DC’s earliest claim? Thanks!

I believe that issue came up in the brought by copyright attorney Marc Toberoff - Siegel v. Warner.  Look for the District Court decision.  It went through the whole story of the creation of Superman. 

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 11/17/2022 at 5:55 PM, eschnit said:

I don’t own one, but have always thought this to be undervalued…

I agree, but think it’s starting to get pricier. Lex Luther and Brainiac are really the only Superman villains that come to my mind, so you’d think they would get more respect 

[Readcomix]

On 11/17/2022 at 7:48 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

I agree, but think it’s starting to get pricier. Lex Luther and Brainiac are really the only Superman villains that come to my mind, so you’d think they would get more respect 

At the risk of taking us off-topic briefly, this really struck -- the granddaddy of Golden Age heroes really has the majority of his best rogues coming from Atomic/Silver forward. Other than Luthor, the only GA Supes villains of note I can think of are Mxyzptlk and Toyman. Atomic/Silver and forward gives us Brainiac, Bizzaro, Zod and co., Terraman, Mongul, Doomsday, Parasite... @SkOw could tell me if I've missed any obvious ones. Anyway, just wanted to put that notion out there.

[ChillMan]

On 11/15/2022 at 1:59 PM, sfcityduck said:

There is no logic there at all.  Scarcity and rarity don't equal value.  $20M? MPFW will never be worth more than an Action 1.  You seem to enjoy huffing and puffing.

Subby (like Aquaman) is a bit player compared to Wolverine's present popularity.  Its all about supply and demand. Demand is very high for Wolverine in extremely high grades.  CGC has made the spread between the highest copy and those below much much wider for comics which are not at all scarce or rare.. 

Having said that, I think the top MPFW would bring a strong price well above $100K. 

 

 

That's like saying a Jose Canseco rookie card is worth more than a Honus Wagner.

[Sauce Dog]

On 11/28/2022 at 8:25 AM, ChillMan said:

That's like saying a Jose Canseco rookie card is worth more than a Honus Wagner.

I regard all Canseco memorabilia as trash (regardless of its value due to being programmed at a young age by the ninja turtles movie)  

[RareHighGrade]

ChillMan, which copy of MPFW do you own, the 5.5 copy?

[ChillMan]

On 11/28/2022 at 7:40 PM, RareHighGrade said:

ChillMan, which copy of MPFW do you own, the 5.5 copy?

I've admitted my biases at times on here.  Most comic collectors are very biased...lol it's all good and fun.  But no, I don't own any MPFW.

But I think I'm consistent.  I've always favored true first appearances...and I favor Golden Age comics, true collectibles...way over most other things that everyone tries to say are so great.  So if you're in this forum, you're on the right track.  Prices are finally starting to skyrocket to about a tenth of what they should be...but there are still a few opportunities...

As an example of my consistency...believe it or not, but would I lie about this? - call and ask Heritage if you want LOL - I was the high internet bidder for the MPFW Pay Copy.  I can't remember if my bid was upper-20's or lower-30's...but I got outbid substantially in the end - $43K.

[Pantodude]

A lazy Sunday morning, so I have another GA candidate relating to some of my fav SA keys. I was thinking about Avengers 1 today, itself a likely undervalued book. It has no 1st appearances, but that ensemble led the MCU to the most epic and lucrative run ever, culminating in End Game. Two more Avengers movies will likely provide an epic (and very lucrative) conclusion to MCU’s phase 6.  

Due to that success, rival DC has flat out said it will copy Marvel’s strategy. This will require a reboot of their own super team, the Justice League of America (BB28 being another likely undervalued book), en route to an epic conflict of its own.  

So how did we get here?  The answer for Marvel is All Winners Comics #1 (Timely, Summer 1941), which presented Timely’s first team-of-heroes concept…the All Winners Squad.  The Human Torch, Toro, Captain America, Bucky, and the Sub-Mariner are joined by the Angel and the Black Marvel.  For the first time, all of Timely’s flagship characters (Subby, Cap, and Human Torch) appeared together on this classic front cover.  Much like FF1 was Marvel’s answer to DC’s BB28, All Winners Comics #1 was Timely's answer to DC's World's Finest. Published shortly after Captain America Comics #1, AWC1 is just Cap’s 4th appearance, here in what many consider one of the most compelling GA Simon and Kirby Cap stories.  It also includes a very early appearance of the Star Spangled Avenger. But the main thing is AWC1 was the genesis of ALL those countless Timely team ups, then and now!  That should count for a lot, right?   

AWC1’s appeal might increase considering how expensive GA 1st appearances are, including Cap, Subby, Torch, etc.  AWC1 provides an early appearance for all of them, along with their first cover together as part of the first appearance of Timely’s first super team.  So AWC1, already very high in historical significance, might also be very undervalued, like other candidates in this thread. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Pantodude

[Pantodude]

On 11/17/2022 at 6:55 PM, eschnit said:

I don’t own one, but have always thought this to be undervalued…

In relative terms, AC23 and the early SA's AC242 actually, you would expect them to be undervalued.  How could they (and most DC titles) not be.  DC has yet to properly showcase its main heroes (and their main villains) to achieve a JLA in the DCEU on par w/ the MCU's Avengers (in terms of box office draw).  The Batman is off to a good start, but don't think that is part of the DCEU.  Most Bat/Tec books are undervalued for various reasons, including 1st appearances. 

We could add More Fun #52 (1st Spectre).   Should he not only appear on the big screen but become a regular, it could get real interesting. He was huge in the GA and did alright in the SA, even getting his own title.  

Edited December 11, 2022 by Pantodude

[Mmehdy]

On 12/11/2022 at 6:45 AM, Pantodude said:

A lazy Sunday morning, so I have another GA candidate relating to some of my fav SA keys. I was thinking about Avengers 1 today, itself a likely undervalued book. It has no 1st appearances, but that ensemble led the MCU to the most epic and lucrative run ever, culminating in End Game. Two more Avengers movies will likely provide an epic (and very lucrative) conclusion to MCU’s phase 6.  

Due to that success, rival DC has flat out said it will copy Marvel’s strategy. This will require a reboot of their own super team, the Justice League of America (BB28 being another likely undervalued book), en route to an epic conflict of its own.  

So how did we get here?  The answer for Marvel is All Winners Comics #1 (Timely, Summer 1941), which presented Timely’s first team-of-heroes concept…the All Winners Squad.  The Human Torch, Toro, Captain America, Bucky, and the Sub-Mariner are joined by the Angel and the Black Marvel.  For the first time, all of Timely’s flagship characters (Subby, Cap, and Human Torch) appeared together on this classic front cover.  Much like FF1 was Marvel’s answer to DC’s BB28, All Winners Comics #1 was Timely's answer to DC's World's Finest. Published shortly after Captain America Comics #1, AWC1 is just Cap’s 4th appearance, here in what many consider one of the most compelling GA Simon and Kirby Cap stories.  It also includes a very early appearance of the Star Spangled Avenger. But the main thing is AWC1 was the genesis of ALL those countless Timely team ups, then and now!  That should count for a lot, right?   

AWC1’s appeal might increase considering how expensive GA 1st appearances are, including Cap, Subby, Torch, etc.  AWC1 provides an early appearance for all of them, along with their first cover together as part of the first appearance of Timely’s first super team.  So AWC1, already very high in historical significance, might also be very undervalued, like other candidates in this thread. 

One of the big pluses of AW1 is the Kirby Cap which only appeared in on 1/2. I have always liked #19/21 like everyone else on the board and think those are really great books, early in the 70's All Winners was one of the top GA books to get, over time the luster has faded, so I would agree that is a great book period.

[Joseph Ragno]

I'd like to bump this thread.  As a fairly new collector, I found it fascinating.  I learned a lot.  One of my takeaways from reading the entire thread is the focus on individual images and pages from these comics.  I'm new to comic collecting, but I'm not new to investing.  Seems to me that the greatest percentage increase moving forward is collecting the individual pages that represent these first images or sentinel moments in a character's storyline.  I don't disparage any form of collecting that makes people happy.  It just makes less sense to pay a high amount for a midgrade key book, rather than spending less money on the pages that one can actually see the images that make the comic or character special.