Newsstand Copies. 3 3

[Microchip]

Hi, as this is on its way to becoming a new version category for books.   I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on this.  

Are people going to collect both versions?

For CPV's becoming recognised, will this era of books become more collectable?

For registry points for newsstand books, what are your thoughts on values next to direct edition books?

 

 

 

[ShaggyB]

On 11/14/2022 at 11:10 PM, Microchip said:

Hi, as this is on its way to becoming a new version category for books.   I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on this.  

Are people going to collect both versions?

For CPV's becoming recognised, will this era of books become more collectable?

For registry points for newsstand books, what are your thoughts on values next to direct edition books?

 

 

 

Id like for newstand to become its own category. For example if there are 10 cgc 9.8 ss version of a book, but only one of those is newstand... i feel it should be shown in census as a 1 or 1

[Microchip]

On 12/7/2022 at 4:40 AM, ShaggyB said:

Id like for newstand to become its own category. For example if there are 10 cgc 9.8 ss version of a book, but only one of those is newstand... i feel it should be shown in census as a 1 or 1

Agreed.  

It's be great to see sets expanded to include the direct, and newsstand version of the book.

The volumes of Direct to Newsstand vary greatly throughout the years, so getting a points basis assignment for newsstand books is going to be difficult to get right.  

CPV's are roughly 10% of the US volume of books, would we give them 10x the points of the regular US edition??

Modern newsstands are even lower, the points for modern newsstand books could be wildly different. 

[ShaggyB]

Honestly, id like the signature to even have its own category. Example, that Asm issue with massive ammounts of signatures is a one of a kind... but its one of many ss copies at that grade on that issue.

[ASSA9]

One of these #7 Wizard Magazines is a Newsstand Edition with some Bart Sears cover art. Can you guess which one? 

[Microchip]

It's a happening thing..

 

And the books are in the registry.

 

[Le Chat Noir]

Only thought is that the # of newsstands will be understated, since this only took effect this year...

It's unlikely everyone will resubmit their newsstands just to have them recategorized.

[ASSA9]

CGCs way of dealing with it makes it   pointless anyway. Far as I can tell , New newsstand edition books that they have decided to recognize as (Newsstand Edition) are classified as such in the Pedigree category , not actually creating a slot for them in the census. No count.

Apparently , if you want to add one of these books to a registry set , they will create a slot for it there , but there will be no official count in the census unless of course you have one of those nuggets they've decided is worthy. 

[Chaz G.]

On 12/8/2022 at 6:21 PM, Microchip said:

CPV's are roughly 10% of the US volume of books, would we give them 10x the points of the regular US edition??

While I definitely agree that the rarer the book, the more points should be attributed, I think 10x is a bit much. 

[Le Chat Noir]

On 1/13/2023 at 5:55 PM, Chaz G. said:

While I definitely agree that the rarer the book, the more points should be attributed, I think 10x is a bit much. 

The problem with attributing more points to newsstands, is that not all newsstands are accounted for.

Hypothetically, a bunch of people will drop rank and/or not want to resubmit their whole collection.

[Iconic1s]

On 1/13/2023 at 7:31 PM, Le Chat Noir said:

The problem with attributing more points to newsstands, is that not all newsstands are accounted for.

Hypothetically, a bunch of people will drop rank and/or not want to resubmit their whole collection.

Or (if you are not a newsstand collector, and don’t intend to be) not care about the competitive Registry at all anymore…

Some people have put way too much work into sets to suddenly have slots added for books that are no different indicia-wise from their direct counterparts… or to see newsstands arbitrarily awarded extra points when the Census of GRADED copies will NEVER be accurate enough to reflect actual relative scarcity…  

Keep newsstand in the Pedigree field and leave it at that…

@wytshus

Edited January 16, 2023 by Iconic1s

[Brandon Shepherd]

On 1/16/2023 at 10:38 AM, Iconic1s said:

Or (if you are not a newsstand collector, and don’t intend to be) not care about the competitive Registry at all anymore…

Some people have put way too much work into sets to suddenly have slots added for books that are no different indicia-wise from their direct counterparts… or to see newsstands arbitrarily awarded extra points when the Census of GRADED copies will NEVER be accurate enough to reflect actual relative scarcity…  

Keep newsstand in the Pedigree field and leave it at that…

@wytshus

I second this.

[Microchip]

On 1/14/2023 at 12:31 PM, Le Chat Noir said:

The problem with attributing more points to newsstands, is that not all newsstands are accounted for.

Hypothetically, a bunch of people will drop rank and/or not want to resubmit their whole collection.

Thats true, particularly for modern sets.    

But then it gives guys a chance to move ranks, newsstands can easily act like tie breakers on the smaller sets.

Right now, they will be coming in very small numbers, a few years from now, it will be very different conversation on all of this.     Still disputes on points, but thats been at the heart of the registry from day 1.

[Iconic1s]

On 1/16/2023 at 1:30 PM, Microchip said:

But then it gives guys a chance to move ranks, newsstands can easily act like tie breakers on the smaller sets.

The problem with this is that some people don’t have any interest in newsstands… again, indicia-wise no difference.  Why should someone be forced to collect a second copy of the same book to compete?  The difference is in a hypothetical of distribution, ‘rougher handling’, destruction, etc.  I know some guys are really into this and have been crunching numbers for years on newsstand distro, etc and still aren’t sure exactly what the distro was on some of these. There is NO WAY CGC can claim to have worked this all out (I’m not even going to mention their claim that they have ‘extensively researched’ multi-pack books and so on).  And, EVEN IF THEY DID FIGURE IT OUT (which they didn’t), it doesn’t even matter… what this all really hinges on is the Census numbers of GRADED copies and with this change coming in 22 years late it will NEVER be correct enough to base scoring on.

For me it boils down to an extra slot for a book with the same indicia, which is pure insanity and/or extra points being arbitrarily assigned to a book because CGC ‘thinks’ it might be rarer.

So what happens when everyone starts submitting their newsstand copies of a low Census book and the newsstand now is two or three times more common in ‘graded form’ than the direct?  Does that newsstand then get assigned less points?

I know the newsstand guys are celebrating this change but I think it’s going to make a Registry that is already nearly unmanageable with the number of ‘variants’, truly impossible to deal with, while also sticking it to anyone not willing to jump on the newsstand bandwagon.  All this based on no REAL data. @wytshus

Again, I’m all for the Pedigree slot being used for those that don’t know what a barcode/newsstand looks like (heck, even break them down in the Census if it thrills someone to look at bogus numbers) but not all this added slot/extra points craziness.

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Iconic1s

[wytshus]

To clarify:

Re-slabbed Newsstand books will have the 'Newsstand' designation in the Pedigree field.  Re-slabbed Newsstands will retain their original Comic ID. 

As far as the registry is concerned, this is NOT considered a variant.  I can, and I have, created new slots with a newsstand title.  However, the book in that slot will be populated with the first run book, and will have the score associated with the first run.

New slabs will be categorized at the discretion of the Graders, they will determine if the book is truly a Newsstand Edition. There are a number of sets with true Newsstand variants, and the weighted score is determined by the Census.  

 

I firmly believe if someone takes the time and expense to submit books to be graded by CGC, they should be able to add it to the Registry.  I also believe that the scoring system is untenable in it's current form.  The Census does not, and should not, reflect the open market.  

 

[Iconic1s]

On 1/17/2023 at 2:48 PM, wytshus said:

As far as the registry is concerned, this is NOT considered a variant.  I can, and I have, created new slots with a newsstand title.  However, the book in that slot will be populated with the first run book, and will have the score associated with the first run.

Hello, I'm still a bit confused by this.  If the newsstand and direct have the same Comic ID aren't they then still the same book for registry slot purposes?

If so...

Then basically what we are doing here is adding a second slot to a set for the same book with the same Comic ID and calling it a "newsstand slot.'  If I understand the idea of a 'Comic ID' correctly then it sounds like a person could also add a direct copy of the book in the newsstand slot (Same Comic ID).

Whew!  So if I am tracking correctly what will happen is that we'll have TWO slots for the same book in a set, one just called a 'newsstand slot' but where a person could in fact add either a newsstand or direct copy...

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding but If that's what's happening then this is kind of strange...

On 1/17/2023 at 2:48 PM, wytshus said:

I firmly believe if someone takes the time and expense to submit books to be graded by CGC, they should be able to add it to the Registry.  I also believe that the scoring system is untenable in it's current form.  The Census does not, and should not, reflect the open market.  

I agree and based on the Comic ID there is nothing currently precluding anyone from displaying a newsstand copy in any of the slots where there is a newsstand and direct copy of a book with the same Comic ID right now... it's the same book indicia-wise.

Again, if the Comic ID is the same and you create an additional slot named 'newsstand' all that has happened is that now a person could put two copies of the same book in the set (if I understand correctly).

That said, let's take it a step further.  If the Comic ID is the same and the only difference is a 'newsstand' annotation in the Pedigree field and we create a slot based on a Pedigree field, then to ensure uniformity, shouldn't there be an extra slot added for any other book in any set where a Pedigree labeled book exists (I personally think that's absurd but that will be next if what I think is about to happen happens).

Would sincerely appreciate any further clarification on my above perception.  Thank you!

P.S. Lastly would just say that if this is all being done to please the newsstand collectors then shouldn't extra slots also be added so we can add both a Universal and Signature Series copy of our books in the same set?  I think that's crazy too but hey, as long as we're adding all these extra slots to look after every niche collector, why not?  I think we are super blurring the lines between a competitive and custom set when we have two slots for the same book IMO.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Iconic1s

[Microchip]

@wytshus hi, thanks for your input.

All your points highlighted are fairly easy to see how CGC is going to approach newsstand issues.    With newsstand issues joining the numerous variants, price, country, and covers.  and  The big question at this point relates to the different era's of newsstands. 

1970's - newsstands were the dominant format prior to direct editions. Then this switched positions over a number of years.   

1980's - Canadian price variants, known to be 10% of the US run, and dwindling in 1986/87.    Australian price variants, =<1% of US distribution runs.

US newsstand copies, 10-40% of US direct editions

1990's - 2023 - unknown

 

On 1/18/2023 at 7:48 AM, wytshus said:

There are a number of sets with true Newsstand variants, and the weighted score is determined by the Census.  

is there a formula in place to calculate points scores for Newsstand books in relation to direct editions.    Is it s something thats likely to change as the newsstand population fills out?  

 

[Iconic1s]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:55 PM, Microchip said:

 Is it s something thats likely to change as the newsstand population fills out?

Herein lies the problem. Unless CGC had recognized these books in the Census from day one (which they didn’t), the GRADED number of newsstands will NEVER be accurately known. All this discussion about points is based only on people’s opinions and guesses in regard to how rare a book ‘might’ be.  Meanwhile they are creating slots and we’re still attempting to rationalize a point system based on completely unreliable data.

The only thing that should have been done is to add the newsstand annotation in the Pedigree field and leave it at that… no extra slots, no discussion of points based on rarity/census data.

Honestly, I think the competitive Registry is about to be ruined to please newsstand collectors. @wytshus  What is so wrong with one slot per Comic ID/indicia?  Then, if someone chooses to display their newsstand there with the cool Pedigree note then good for them. Heck, you have two pic slots so display both if that floats your boat!  What is really happening now is two slots in competitive sets where a newsstand exists (but it sounds like either book can be added there).  What this does is give people an edge that decide to collect newsstands also. I joked earlier about creating a slot for Signature Series books (same Comic ID) but I would never actually think that’s a good idea… when I decided I wanted to display my Universal AND Sig Series copy of my books together I created a CUSTOM SET and that’s what these newsstand guys should be doing IMO.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Iconic1s

[wytshus]

@Iconic1s

 

The problem is that the registry does not differentiate between different pedigrees, only variants.

Here is what I see when I populate a slot:

 

Creating new slots with a descriptive title is the only way to indicate the book is a variant when the variant field is not populated.  I have done this for older books that have variant covers that were graded before the variant field was implemented. I am not a grader, I do not have any say in what is or what isn't a variant. 

It's not perfect, and yes, either book can be added to that slot.
 

 

@Microchip

The way individual scoring is supposed to work is:

 

Base Score x Category Modifier x Census Algorithm Modifier = Weighted Score
 

 

[Iconic1s]

On 1/19/2023 at 2:58 PM, wytshus said:

It's not perfect, and yes, either book can be added to that slot.

I really do appreciate what you are trying to do and I know you will never be able to please everyone… but two slots for the same book and naming one newsstand just because?!